[Kiirnodel]

the key word kirr
is
making them target and lynchpin of preparations.


the property is
Deformation Resistance: –2 AP, –1 DV. Deformation-resistant
bullets do not deform when fired
or upon impact, which inflicts a –4 dice pool penalty
to any Armorer tests to identify the weapon that
fired the bullet. Cannot be used with hollow-point
ammunition.  FA 52

Thus your bullets/preparation make it intact to the target and contact effect is trigger, just like an arrow.

So as deformation has been the basis argument sense day 1, it's exactly what I think it is.

Not how that spell works. You trigger the preparation before you fire the bullet. It doesn't make it to the target of the firearm attack because the spell is already done. Alter Ballistics affects the gun attack not the person hit by it.

And since you have to prepare the bullet as the lynchpin of Alter Ballistics, and you can't prepare the same item with two alchemical preparations, that means you still can't attach a Contact Trigger Prep to a bullet.

[Marcus]

Not how that spell works. You trigger the preparation before you fire the bullet. It doesn't make it to the target of the firearm attack because the spell is already done. Alter Ballistics affects the gun attack not the person hit by it.

That's cute Kirr. But clearly your not keeping up. Bullet/preparation, is contact trigger, Alter Ballistics effect is that bullet does not deform (See option 4 as reference above), the effect is trigger when the bullet/preparation reaches the target aura as with an arrow.  You can read about magic bullets in street lethal as well.

Magic bullets are in time to get used to it.

[Marcus]

If you want a technical argument on how you get around the one aura object rule, then you put primary spell effect on the bullet, and alter ballistic  spell on the casing. It's still the bullet and thus all conditions are satisfied.

[Kiirnodel]

Get with the times man, bullets don't have casings anymore. Plus (again) Alter Ballistics specifically is a preparation placed on the bullet.

FA pg 51: "The Alter Ballistics spell is a spell unique to the Alchemical Armorer that allows them to alter the ballistic properties of bullets or add helpful effects like noise reduction. This spell only works as an alchemical preparation that uses a bullet as the lynchpin.


Edited to Add: Haven't read through Street Lethal yet, but if it has something concrete I'm happy to hear it. Anything more than fluffy hearsay isn't exactly helpful though. The general talk on the street (i.e. flavor text that I've read) is that Magic bullets are a cool idea, but not practical in application.

P.S. Went ahead and did a quick glance through Street Lethal. Found where they talk about "magic bullets" and if we actually read the text, the short version is that the corps have been doing the research, but with no conclusive results. They have had some "consistent successes" but also "tons of failures and the death count is pretty staggering."
Doesn't sound like the realm of out-of-the-box player use there.

[Marcus]

Get with the times man, bullets don't have casings anymore. Plus (again) Alter Ballistics specifically is a preparation placed on the bullet.

FA pg 51: "The Alter Ballistics spell is a spell unique to the Alchemical Armorer that allows them to alter the ballistic properties of bullets or add helpful effects like noise reduction. This spell only works as an alchemical preparation that uses a bullet as the lynchpin.


Edited to Add: Haven't read through Street Lethal yet, but if it has something concrete I'm happy to hear it. Anything more than fluffy hearsay isn't exactly helpful though. The general talk on the street (i.e. flavor text that I've read) is that Magic bullets are a cool idea, but not practical in application.

P.S. Went ahead and did a quick glance through Street Lethal. Found where they talk about "magic bullets" and if we actually read the text, the short version is that the corps have been doing the research, but with no conclusive results. They have had some "consistent successes" but also "tons of failures and the death count is pretty staggering."
Doesn't sound like the realm of out-of-the-box player use there.

They can have casings most just don't. So ether use casings or you add it the propellant wafer instead it will still be "the bullet" and it will still work.  It's also discussed on page 30 of FA. Of course it's dangerous. Any aura will set it off. So if you screw up after loading the bullet, you blow yourself up. But that just how it is, High Risk, High Reward. It's the same with arrows.

There are of course restrictions from the spell SS and so on. But it's that's clearly what they intended, and it clearly will work as discussed.

[Kiirnodel]

The Alter Ballistics spell works, sure. But nothing about the way that spell is laid out helps you put another spell on it on top of that. You can't prepare the bullet twice, and the Alter Ballistics spell must be on the bullet.

Everything else where they talk about making Magic Bullets or using bullets to deliver contact-triggered preparations is discussed independent of the Alter Ballistics spell. Those attempts all carry their own restrictions and difficulties, most of which make the entire procedure hardly worth doing.

[HP15BS]

The Alter Ballistics spell is a spell unique to the Alchemical Armorer that allows them to alter the ballistic properties of bullets or add helpful effects like noise reduction. This spell only works as an alchemical preparation that uses a bullet as the lynchpin. Bullets used as a lynchpin may only be fired by Single Shot weapons. The preparation must be activated before it is fired or the lynchpin will be destroyed by firing the bullet.
When using a command trigger, a character may choose to activate a single preparation normally (with a Simple Action) or any number of bullets (including all of them) at a time with a Complex Action. When activated, the preparation lasts for a number of minutes equal to the Force of the preparation. When crafting the lynchpin, the character must specify and make a record of the effects they would like the bullet to have, in order, from most desired to least desired. When the preparation is activated, each net hit will add the listed properties to the bullet in the specified order until net hits or the list of chosen effects is exhausted.

It then goes on to list 8 specific (rather lame) effects to choose from.

If this were an actual spell you cast on a bullet, or a clip full of bullets before firing, then that would do the trick. But unfortunately, that's not what we have here. Despite repeatedly calling it a spell, it's actually a preparation.

And 1 object can't be a lynchpin to 2 preparations simultaneously.

As for separating a bullet into its components to get around that... it's a shaky argument to begin with. But it's even shakier when you consider that those other parts besides the hunk of metal that hits the target aren't what matter here.

Since the casing would be ejected, it would not be what Alter Ballistics would save from deforming, nor what you want to contact a target's aura.
(And it seems pretty clear that it only affects the metal that's serving as a lynchpin, not just something it's attached to.)

I can see why you'd assume it works like you say, though. Considering how lame the 8 listed effects are, stacking with a decent combat spell is about the only thing that would make it worth using (single shot limitation on top of the lame effects is just harsh).

Sadly, though, that's not reason enough to claim RAI, let along RAW.

[Marcus]

The Alter Ballistics spell works, sure. But nothing about the way that spell is laid out helps you put another spell on it on top of that. You can't prepare the bullet twice, and the Alter Ballistics spell must be on the bullet.

Everything else where they talk about making Magic Bullets or using bullets to deliver contact-triggered preparations is discussed independent of the Alter Ballistics spell. Those attempts all carry their own restrictions and difficulties, most of which make the entire procedure hardly worth doing.

You don't need it to. You spell the slug, you spell the propellant and put them together, they are now the bullet.  Alter Ballistics Triggers, as a command as per the wording of the spell using Deformation resistance option then fire the gun. Spell on the slug triggers on contact. Works fine so long as the bullet does not come in premature contact with a living aura, and Hard Target gives us the gear to handle that problem.

[Marcus]

Sadly, though, that's not reason enough to claim RAI, let along RAW.

I'm for sure claiming both. I have two books, both say magic bullets are in play that's RAI, and I have a logical construction process that works within the letter of the rules that's RAW and if any GM has an issue with it, they can restrict under the 15 point quality, just like potion maker.

 

[Kiirnodel]

What book says that magic bullets are in play? I've read entry after entry of people talking about the potential of magic bullets and all of them say something to the tune of "it's cool in theory, but nobody's got it going quite right." Hard Targets says the only way to make a magic bullet is to go back to muskets with bullets made of hard steel. And Street Lethal says that involved blood magic and is nearly lethal (to the people attempting it).

That's 2 books saying that RAI, there aren't actually any rules for it, but it's a potential concept.


You're seriously stretching it when you're trying to say Alter Ballistics does anything more than just what is listed there. You can't enchant the bullet more than once. Hard Stop.

[Marcus]

 In most instances, magic bullets are just bullets that have been made into alchemical preparations of
combat spells that are subsequently fired out of a gun barrel. These
are just standard alchemy preparations that must be activated with
the normal triggers. This is universally recognized as a poor design
for several reasons: Primarily, they are hard to aim, and activating
a combat spell inside of a firearm will often damage the user or
the weapon itself. Until recently, it’s simply been more effective to
have a trained operator fire their weapon normally rather than bring
alchemy into the equation.
-FA 30

That all said, let’s talk about advancements in
the field. Several of the Big Ten and quite a few AAs
have made headway in their projects through the
use of sacrificial magic. Aztechnology is right up
there at the top of the heap (surprise, surprise), but
MCT and, much to my surprise, Global Sandstorm
(Spinrad Global, now), have reported (no, not publicly)
consistent successes in the creation of bullet
anchors, movable wards, and spelled items usable
by mundane members of their test teams. Sure,
there are tons of failures and the death count is
pretty staggering, but you can’t make an omelet
without burning a chicken farm.
SL 86

Hard target says what Kirr have already said, and what I have said from the beginning you can build weapons that don't deform, and it will work.  ( HT-194 has the full text for those interested, and it discusses a pile downsides, complications and alternatives.)

I'm adding this the interest of the OP of this thread:
Some advanced alchemists have taken to Filling capsule
rounds with liquid alchemical preparations. These
work great, but ultimately it is just a work-around for
their specialization and lack of skill in raw spellcasting.
-HT 194 (So potion filled cap rounds will work 100% for sure. and Yes again we have yet another form of magic bullet, and there's no wiggling out of that one)

So we have 3+ examples all say Magic Bullets Exist, and that as RAI and RAW as at it gets. They can be made. They are dangerous. q_q however you like but they are the reality of 5e.
 
Sure downside, risks, all absolutely true, including various complications.

On to my method:
The effect target has to be a bullet and it is. We use the Hand load rules from hard target, and I never said Alter ballistics did anything other then exactly what the rule say it does. I said you choose function 4, that wording is very clear, that completely clears the deformation problem that cause the primary hold up on bullets in general. The spell targets lynchpin is a bullet.  Maybe it's cheesy, but certainly not the cheesiest thing in the system. For those thinks it over the edge, well then they can do what I suggested and lock it down under the quality and disallow it if that what they wish. But I maintain this is RAW and RAI, and the examples above are clear.


So Kirr are you still gonna tell me there are no magic bullets in play?

[Reaver]

My reading of "alter ballistics" from reading the entire entry is that this is the sole way to make magical bullets, BUT you can only add the limited effects under the spell..
I will link the entry so we can all see it in its entirety:

Alter Ballistics page: 51 Forbidden Arcanca

ALTER BALLISTICS
MANIPULATION SPELL, PHYSICAL
Type: P Range: T
Duration: I Drain: (F—2)
The Alter Ballistics spell is a spell unique to
the Alchemical Armorer that allows them to alter
the ballistic properties of bullets or add helpful
effects like noise reduction. This spell only
works as an alchemical preparation that uses a
bullet as the lynchpin. Bullets used as a lynchpin
may only be fired by Single Shot weapons. The
preparation must be activated before it is fired
or the lynchpin will be destroyed by firing the
bullet. When using a command trigger, a character
may choose to activate a single preparation
normally (with a Simple Action) or any number
of bullets (including all of them) at a time with
a Complex Action. When activated, the preparation
lasts for a number of minutes equal to
the Force of the preparation. When crafting the
lynchpin, the character must specify and make
a record of the effects they would like the bullet
to have, in order, from most desired to least
desired. When preparation is activated, each
net hit will add the listed properties to the bullet
in the specified order until net hits or the list of
chosen effects is exhausted.

LIST OF EFFECTS
1. Double weapon range (changing all categories
of range modifiers).
2. –4 dice pool modifier to Perception tests to
notice gunfire.
3. +1 Accuracy.
4. Deformation Resistance: –2 AP, –1 DV. Deformation-
resistant bullets do not deform when fired
or upon impact, which inflicts a –4 dice pool penalty
to any Armorer tests to identify the weapon that
fired the bullet. Cannot be used with hollow-point
ammunition.
5. Increased Deformation: +2 AP, +1 DV. Cannot
be used with APDS.
6. Astral signature fade time reduced by 50
percent.
7. Impact Dispersion: Reduces the Physical limit
of a character by 2 when comparing it to the DV to
determine knockdown.
8. Frangible: Treat any barrier the ammo hits as if
its Armor were twice normal.

   

So using this option, will make a magical bullet that can do any of the things from the list, but it makes no mention of adding an additional spell or effect beyond those in the list.


Now, a claim has been made that using effect "Deformation resistance" would allow an bullet to be made into a linchpin for another spell... I don't think so.

"Deformation resistance" is an after effect, of the spell "Alter Ballistics", the same way a ball of fire is the after effect of a Fireball spell...


And All "Deformation resistance" does it change the ammo quality of the ammo used in a weapon (with some limitations).

For example:

I have a Super Warhawk pistol: ( 5ACC 9p -2 ap, SS, 6cy)
and I have Hollow Points loaded. (+1p +2ap)

so my gun stats are now 5ACC 10p, 0AP, SS 6cy.

I could turn those hollow points into lynchpins.... and choose the effects i want (in order, using numbers) 1, 2, 3, 5.... then when I cast this alter ballistics spell I not my successes. (lets say 2), I then get 1 and 2 effects.

I have double the range, and -4 to perception test to notice gunfire.

If I have gotten 3 successes, then I would also have gotten +1 Accuracy.

I am going to point back to FA, this time page 198

NEW ALCHEMICAL
PREPARATIONS
Alchemical preparations are spells that rely on
a physical conduit, called the lynchpin, to channel
mana from the astral to the physical realm to
activate them. Lynchpins are the weak spot in
any alchemical preparation, as even the slightest
damage to them will render the entire preparation
inoperable. They can take many forms, from
arcane writing on paper to the severed hand of
a murderer mystically imbued with power. Tradition
and imagination are the limit when it comes
to alchemically preparing a vessel for a spell.
Rules for purchasing preparations follows the
same outline as buying compounds (p. 194), namely
that they are hard to find—in fact, even more so
because of the shorter lifespan. The base price is
[(Force of spell involved) + (Current Potency)] x
500¥. Base availability for all preparations is 14R.

Again it points out that so much as a single scratch to the lynchpin is enough to destroy it.

One of the greatest inventions in firearm tech was the rifled barrel. It is with the rifled barrel that accuracy is achieved at any degree of range, for it is the twisting action of the round as it flies through the air the limits air resistance and cross drag, thus increasing the round's direct flight.

For that to happen, you need a metal on metal contact to spin the bullet as it travels down thee barrel, Gun barrels are made of very hard metals. Bullets are designed to transfer their kinetic energy to a target, to do this effectively, they have to deform (you have to increase the surface area at the point of contact). Bullets, by their very nature, are made of softer material then rifle barrels. When 2 materials of different strengths are forced against each other, the lesser material is scraped. - and a lynchpin would be destroyed.

If the materials are of equal strength, they bind (Barrel jam!). If you have ever tried to clear even a lead nose round from a barrel, you know how hard this. A Copper Jacket is even worse.... With Steel Jacketed, its almost easier to just replace the barrel.   


But that's just my opinion. 

As to capsule rounds. No opinion given.

[Marcus]

We will have to agree disagree on this one Reaver.
 
4. Deformation Resistance: –2 AP, –1 DV. Deformation-resistant
bullets do not deform when fired
or upon impact, which inflicts a –4 dice pool penalty
to any Armorer tests to identify the weapon that
fired the bullet. Cannot be used with hollow-point
ammunition.
FA 52-

The argument has always been the bullet deforms and destroys the lynchpin. The Bullet doesn't deform lynchpin is intact.
That's not Fluff. It's the rules section. Bullet deformation is only one of several methods that were developed to increased damage guns caused. They learned very quickly bullets that are too hard and too fast, go right through a target and do less damage the slower traveling deforming bullets. But there is no reason you can't build a non-deforming bullet, and this case the bullet damage will be minor compared to the spell damage, so it's irrelevant if it go right though the target.

[Overbyte]

The Alter Ballistics spell works, sure. But nothing about the way that spell is laid out helps you put another spell on it on top of that. You can't prepare the bullet twice, and the Alter Ballistics spell must be on the bullet.

Everything else where they talk about making Magic Bullets or using bullets to deliver contact-triggered preparations is discussed independent of the Alter Ballistics spell. Those attempts all carry their own restrictions and difficulties, most of which make the entire procedure hardly worth doing.

You don't need it to. You spell the slug, you spell the propellant and put them together, they are now the bullet.  Alter Ballistics Triggers, as a command as per the wording of the spell using Deformation resistance option then fire the gun. Spell on the slug triggers on contact. Works fine so long as the bullet does not come in premature contact with a living aura, and Hard Target gives us the gear to handle that problem.

Your terminology here is incorrect. A "slug" is a "bullet". The combination is actually a "cartridge" or a "round".

I don't see how your Alter Ballistics affects the bullet that it is not on.

[Kiirnodel]

You can't set up the same item as a lynchpin for more than one preparation at a time. I could actually make arguments that you would have to hand load all bullets that you attempt to make into preparations, but that requirement is unnecessary. No matter how you spin it, the bullet is the projectile. Even if you try and use hand loading to separate the ammunition into multiple parts that are individually prepared, when you define those parts, there is only one thing that is the bullet when you really come down to it. The slug, ball, lead, small piece of metal; whatever you want to call the final projectile, that is what is really the bullet. It is that part that is going to fly across the field and impact your target, so obviously it is that part that needs to have the preparation that you want to deliver to said target. And in all of the text of the Alter Ballistics spell, they are describing the same thing. The part that must be prepared as the lynchpin for that spell is also the piece that is going to receive the enhancements therein. If you prepare the casing with Alter Ballistics, then the casing is what gets enhanced by that spell, and your bullet gets no benefits, it gets damaged in the process of firing and you get nothing.

Now, on to the text cited:

The text from Forbidden Arcana just leads us to: Alter Ballistics, which is never suggested in text to be combined further with more things. It is "bring[ing] alchemy into the equation," as the final sentence in the quote says. It is applying alchemy in a way to enhance firing of the weapon. All of the rest of that passage up to that point is stated in a way that contraindicates the successful use of combat magic with firearms (for example: "universally recognized as a poor design"). These statements directly indicate that the design has changed, which is what Alter Ballistics is. It's a pivot in the approach of combining Magic and Firearms, rather than trying to create a bullet that makes a spell, it is using magic to improve the bullet. A whole new approach.

The text from Street Lethal gives next to nothing concrete about what any of the things actually do, but the primary implication is creating a bullet that can be used to shoot spirits, which still isn't the spell delivery slug you're suggesting. And it is also surrounded by the huge caveat of not working quite right yet and involving some serious mojo (see Sacrifical).

I never said magic bullets don't exist, just that your idea of using Alter Ballistics to also add another preparation on top is unfounded.

We have somewhere around 2 to 4 forms of "magic bullets" depending on how you look at it:

• *Alter Ballistics, which doesn't technically create a magic bullet, just a magically augmented attack. The bullet itself might gain some benefits but is not strictly magical.
• The super old-fashioned bullets, which are inconsistent (even Hard Targets gives them a 50-50 chance of working), hard to make, and wildly inaccurate
• *Capsule Rounds, which deliver liquid prepared alchemy. This was actually kind of a gray area until FA was released and actually gave us a way to actually make liquid preparations. It is still unclear if they work entirely with Contact trigger or only with Command (as Contact risks premature trigger when handled).
• The mysterious "magic bullet" of SL, which has no rules or concrete methods. Only allusions to being particularly difficult and risky. Potentially requires Sacrifice and other metamagical methods.

*These are the only ones that have concrete rules. The others are cited as "rumors" with potential ways they might work.