[Tirwalker]

Hey there,

I am new to the boards.  I played Shadowrun way back in the day, first and second edition, and have rediscovered it after coming across Shadowrun Returns.  I have the main SR5 books in PDF.   I am trying to relearn the rules.  I always liked to play combat mages back in the old days so I am starting there.

A couple of questions:

First, drain is physical if you have more successes than your magic rating.  Makes sense, if you cast high force spells you might hurt yourself.  Question, however, what about spending edge to to push the limit?  If I edge a stun bolt for more damage do I risk physical drain if I roll well?  If so it makes edge somewhat less useful for mages.

And speaking of stunbolt and similar direct spells, from what I understand you can't dodge or resist damage, you just have an opposed roll with either will or body.  Is there any way for the defender to boost their pool, other than counter-spelling?  Does something like complete defense help?

Thanks for the first of what will likely be many questions.

Edit: question on opposed rules like stunbolt.  My limit is my force.  Is that limit applied before the opponent subtracts his successes or after.  If I put together a bunch of dice for a force 6 stunbolt and get 8 successes and my target gets two success, is my damage based on 8-2=6 successes, or is based on 6(my limit)-2=4 successes.

[8-bit]

The answer to your first question is yes. If you push the limit and get more hits than your Magic rating, the drain becomes Physical, but the Drain Code stays the same. So, if the Drain code was Force - 3, and you cast it at Force 5, the drain always remains 2, even if you push the limit with Edge. It just might become Physical damage you have to resist, instead of Stun.

The only way to bolster your defense against direct spells is through Attribute Bonuses to those attributes (such as the adept power Attribute Boost - Body, or Increase Willpower Spell) and Counterspelling. Otherwise, no.

For your last question, the Force limit is how many hits you get to keep, regardless of your net hits. So, in your example, you would cast at Force 6 and get 8 successes. You only get to keep 6 of them. Your opponent gets 2 successes. Your damage is now your hits, 6, minus your target's hits, 2, to get your net hits which is your damage. So it would end up being 6 - 2 = 4 net hits, which determines your damage.

[Tirwalker]

Thanks Much

[8-bit]

No problem. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

[Michael Chandra]

There are 3 possible ways for Limits on Spellcasting.

Normally, the limit equals the Force. So you can at most have as many hits as the Force, any excess is discarded. Only after this will you subtract enemy hits.

The second scenario is when you use Reagents to set a new limit. This can be lower or higher.

Third is Pushing the limit either before or after the roll (NOT Second Chance!), this means no limit applies and all hits are kept.

A limit-change/removal does not change the drain of the spell, and only after the limit (if any) do you see if you have hits>magic and resist Physical Drain instead.


Full Defense is not really 100% clear on when it helps and neither was Aaron's answer on the question. I do not think Full Defense would apply, which is why Direct Spells become worth it against hard-to-hit targets.

[Tirwalker]

A follow up question

With indirect spells, like lightning bolt, the force sets the base damage as well as the limit.  Its pretty clear why higher force is more potent.

With direct spells, the limit is again important as it sets your maximum successes.  But what about if you are spending edge to push?  Once I do that there is no limit, so if I am spending edge to stunbolt the rampaging cybertroll is there any reason to cast more than force 1?  I would still get magic+sepllcasting+modfiers+edge dice for my dicepool as far as i can tell. 

Also, if the drain of a spell equals zero or less is there automatically no drain taken?

[firebug]

There's a lot of spells that have no use for Force if you use Edge (or reagents, but those cost money).  Direct spells, Armor, Increase Reflexes, etc.

However the minimum drain (after modifiers) is always 2.  So even if you cast something that's F-6 at F1, you still roll to resist 2 drain.  Most PCs can have enough dice for this to be trivial though.

[Tirwalker]

Thanks again.  I am working on a human mage with a 7 edge.  My head is spinning with the possibilities of all that edge.

[Imveros]

The only way to bolster your defense against direct spells is through Attribute Bonuses to those attributes (such as the adept power Attribute Boost - Body, or Increase Willpower Spell) and Counterspelling. Otherwise, no.

Dont forget your trusty edge roll! That can be added to anything. My players learned the hard way that you always use edge when i call for a mysterious only body roll... bwhahahaha

[Shrazkil]

So on the subject I had a question. Could someone walk through the steps of an area spell like ball lightning.

I remember ready in the multiple casting thread about how these spells can basically bypass your defense roll (dodge ) , and wanted to get clarification of the process.

Let's say for example I want to cast 2 force 6 ball lightnings as a complex action, walk me through what happens next.

[firebug]

Thanks again.  I am working on a human mage with a 7 edge.  My head is spinning with the possibilities of all that edge.

Consider buying a F1 Sustaining Health Focus (or buying Focused Concentration 1) and using it to sustain Force 1 Increase Reflexes cast with Edge.  You could end up with, what, eight hits on average?  That's 8+4d6 extra initiative, which means you'll have a comparable amount to what most optimized Adepts have.  And normally you'd need to resist 8DV of drain (which would be physical) to achieve that.  Instead you'll just resist 2DV of physical.

Let's say for example I want to cast 2 force 6 ball lightnings as a complex action, walk me through what happens next.

You can't cast multiple attack spells in the same pass--  That's against the general "never more than one attack" rule.

Casting just one though, would work like this.

You cast the F6 spell, rolling your Spellcasting + MAG.  Instead of a contested roll, this is instead a difficulty test with a Threshold of 3.  If you get at least 3 hits, you the spell lands where you choose within LOS.  If you get less, then you determine scatter like you would a grenade, with a scatter distance of (2d6-hits) meters.  Like with grenades, there's no dodge roll against this--  If you're in the AoE (which has a radius in meters equal to the Force), then you are hit.

The damage is determined like any other Indirect spell, however, only net hits (AKA, those past the threshold) are added to damage, making it do a tiny bit less damage than a single target.  The lack of any dodge roll usually means they equal out, though.  Damage is resisted as normal, with Armor + BOD + elemental resistances, taking into account the spell's AP.

The core book can be a bit of a mess when it comes to this, but that's what I've gathered to be clearly intended (through errata, conversations with others, and input from devs).

What cover does for these situations I'm unclear on though.  Obviously if someone is behind a wall, you would have to destroy the barrier to hit them, but I can see no rules for if partial cover gives any kind of modifier.

Off the top of my head, as a house rule, I'd consider giving the Partial/Good Cover (+2 or +4, respectively) bonus to the damage resistance roll since it's literally less of you being hit by the attack.

[Shrazkil]

Pg 281 sais this about multiple casting.

STEP 1: CHOOSE SPELL At character creation, magicians purchase a set of spells for spellcasting, then add more as they advance. The ma- gician can only choose from this set of spells. Casting Multiple Spells: Some magicians have the mental discipline to weave multiple threads of mana into various spells at once. You can attempt to cast multiple spells simultaneously in the same action, even at differ- ent targets. To do this, you have to split your Spellcasting + Magic dice pool between the spells you want to cast (see Step 4), with a minimum of 1 die per spell. Since the modifiers per spell may be different, they are applied af- ter you split the dice pool. The number of spells you can cast simultaneously is limited to your Magic attribute

[firebug]

That checks out, and indeed doesn't say you can't...  But I think the idea is that you are to use it to cast multiple buff spells, not to do something like "I'll cast 6 Ball Lightning spells and just let the scatter as much as I like".  I believe somewhere there's a general overarching rule of being able to make only one attack a pass.  Hence why you can't just Simple Action shoot twice.

[8-bit]

The only way to bolster your defense against direct spells is through Attribute Bonuses to those attributes (such as the adept power Attribute Boost - Body, or Increase Willpower Spell) and Counterspelling. Otherwise, no.

Dont forget your trusty edge roll! That can be added to anything. My players learned the hard way that you always use edge when i call for a mysterious only body roll... bwhahahaha

True, but that Edge is quite literally a special case. It breaks nearly every rule that is set in stone, if you use it creatively. Also, it sounds like you might have the "Murderous GM disorder". This is healthy, but if it continues for more than 4 days at a time without a 12 hour break in between, you should call a doctor and seek medical assistance.

That checks out, and indeed doesn't say you can't...  But I think the idea is that you are to use it to cast multiple buff spells, not to do something like "I'll cast 6 Ball Lightning spells and just let the scatter as much as I like".  I believe somewhere there's a general overarching rule of being able to make only one attack a pass.  Hence why you can't just Simple Action shoot twice.

You can shoot your gun multiple times with a multiple attacks free action. You can toss multiple grenades/shoot multiple grenades with a multiple attacks free action. It is no different with Combat Spells; you simply split your dice pool. Scatter changes damage, areas that are affected, and any collateral damage. It is generally unwise to throw around a single ball of electrical death in a closed or semi-closed space; probably suicidal to throw multiple. Although, if you're fighting in a completely wide open area, I'd say go for it.

[Xenon]

...I believe somewhere there's a general overarching rule of being able to make only one attack

One attack action.
He is attacking twice but with the same [complex] action
(by splitting the pool and spending a free action on Multiple Attacks).

Hence why you can't just Simple Action shoot twice.

If you wield one firearm in each hand then you can attack twice with the same [simple] action
(by splitting the pool and spending a free action on Multiple Attacks)


It is clear that you can attack two different targets with the same action
What people on the boards are arguing about is if you are allowed to use both attacks on the same target or not.....

You can shoot your gun multiple times with a multiple attacks free action...

Yes

However, note that the rules are clear that if you shoot 3 shots with a single weapon set on semi-automatic firing mode on one target you still only attack him once, target get a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice, you don't split pool and you don't spend a free action on multiple attacks.

If you shoot 2 3-bullet bursts with a single weapon set on burst fire firing mode on one target you still only attack him once, target get a negative dice pool modifier of 5 dice, you don't split pool and you don't spend a free action on multiple attacks.