NEWS

So, is it just me or do High Agility Characters have a balance problem?

  • 59 Replies
  • 17740 Views

8-bit

  • *
  • Guest
« on: <08-30-14/0310:58> »
This is gonna be a lot of math and maybe some rambling, but I do believe that it pertains to the topic of character creation. This is more of, what would GMs do if presented with this situation and would they allow a player to do this kind of thing. Personally, I am going to preface that I enjoy an 11 or 12 Agility Character, but we'll get into the details farther down. Enjoy the math and any comments are welcomed!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I think there may be a problem with Agility and movement speed rates. Perhaps this is going into munchkining a bit. So, the maximum Agility you can get with just Bioware at Character Creation is 11, or you can get up to 12 as an Adept. This means that an Elf (since that's the metatype you need), can move 22/44 Meters per 3 seconds with Bioware, or 24/48 Meters per 3 seconds as an Adept.

That means that for someone with Bioware, you're going 7.33 meters per second while walking, which means you can walk a mile in 3.65~ minutes. I understand that this is Shadowrun, not real life, so augmentations mean a lot, but the world record for a human is 3 minutes, 43.13 seconds at a full out sprint. So, walking, this guy beats the current world record. This bioware guy can jog 14.67 meters per second, which means he covers that mile in 1.82 minutes. That's moving at about 32.7 miles per hour at a jogging rate. You can go even faster with Sprinting. This is already ridiculous compared to reality. Even if we were to triple our reaction times (such as Synaptic Boosters 3 or Wired Reflexes 3 approximately), I still am not sure if I could dodge a car moving that fast at me, and this is a metahuman that isn't large and obvious.

Now, as an Adept, you can get an Agility of 12. You are walking 8 meters per second, which means you cover a mile in 3.35~ minutes. Your jogging rate is 16 meters per second, so that means you cover the mile in 1.67 minutes. This character is now moving 35.79 miles per hour. Again, add in Sprinting and it gets pretty ridiculous. Think of how fast you see a car move and you notice it's going 20 miles an hour. 35.79 miles an hour is faster than probably a good 80% of speed limits you'll find outside of a highway.

I mean, think about the average metahuman. They are supposed to have an Agility of 3, and I've seen plenty of characters with an Agility of 2. Their absolute maximum rate doesn't even come close to this characters walking rate. That's right, a normal metahuman at a full out sprint, going as fast as they can, doesn't move as fast as this guy when he's walking. My house is maybe 60 feet wide. That means in the space of 2 seconds, not even a combat turn, this character can walk from one side of my house to another. He can outdistance all Pistols, even a heavy Pistol, in one Combat turn using his Walking rate. He can outdistance SMGs with his running rate, and put Assault Rifles into the Long distance category. Or, if I wanted to, I could move towards a guy and take him down. If this character goes first, he can literally walk up to the guy who is training a pistol on him at max range and take him down before anyone can even react to try and raise a gun. I mean, if you saw this guy move, he's probably a blur at that point. Shake your fingers really fast in front of your face, and notice how you can't see them all that well and you can't tell where they are going to be. This guy moves probably 10x faster than that.

The fastest dracoform in the SR5 book, the Feathered Serpent, has an Agility of 9. Not only do you have a higher Agility, but you have a higher movement rate even though they have larger multipliers! Their "running" movement rate is Agility x 5, which equals 45 meters per combat turn. An Agility 12 character has a "running" movement rate of Agility x 4, which equals 48 meters per combat turn. You know how you never turn your back on a dragon? Well, it's still probably a good idea, as they can outfly you, but you are still moving faster than the fastest dragons in the book. Everything else is even slower.

All right, you might think I've sort of made my point. However, there's more. Let's have my friend the Magician with the ability to conjure spirits help me out. I have the same 12 Agility. Let's say he summons a Force 14 Spirit and have them use Movement on me. They can multiply my movement speed by 14. That 12 Agility? That turns into 168 Agility! That's a "walking" (use the term loosely since it doesn't really apply) rate of 336 meters per combat turn = 112 meters per second. You can "walk" a mile in .239 minutes, or 14.34 seconds, which is about 3.33 combat turns. So, you are walking at a rate of 250.536 miles per hour. You are moving at 1/3 the speed of sound. How about "running"? Well, you are running at 672 meters per combat turn = 224 meters per second. Say goodbye to that mile by "running" it in .119 minutes, or 7.18 seconds ~ 2 Combat turns. Keep on "running" at 501.06 miles per hour. Roughly 3/4 the speed of sound. Thought you could dodge an Agility 12 Character coming at you before? Think again. Now, hitting something while doing this may actually flatten a character, but let's imagine something here for a second. This character picks up a brick, holds it arm's length out, does a "running" action at an enemy. Right before he hits the enemy, he drops the brick, which is still moving forward at 501 miles per hour due to inertia. I think we can imagine the amount of damage that enemy would take, but I would ballpark it around 500P damage. Not to mention this guy can outrun a sniper rifle's range within 1 Combat turn, can probably go around a large building a couple of times in 1 turn, or can simply walk through all of the security before it, or the guards in charge of it had time to notice him. Oh, and you know Astral movement that is supposed to be ridiculously fast? Well, the "running" movement of Astral still beats you since it clocks in at 5 kilometers per combat turn (1.67 kilometers per second), but you pass the "walking" rate of 100 meters per combat turn (33.33 meters per second)!

You might say, "Well, a Force 14 Spirit is really hard to summon and is not something that should be used often!" While it's true, a Force 10 one can really easily be summoned, unless the GM decides to edge the roll. All right, you want something most GM's won't edge? Force 7, since you aren't oversummoning. You multiplier is only 7, instead of 14, but you're still rocking an Agility of 84 for movement. "Walking" is still at a rate of 168 meters per 3 seconds or 56 meters a second, and "running" is at 336 meters per 3 seconds, or 112 meters a second. You are still "running" at 250.526 miles per hour, walking at half that for a not so small 125.263 miles per hour. I'd like to see a dragon outrun that, or even that one Adept who has Combat Sense 7 with max dice pools for 30 dice to dodge a melee attack coming at them at 250.526 miles per hour. Good luck having your Improved Reflexes 3 allow you to register that.

Let's not discount that in both cases you still have a high Force spirit on your side. Let's also not discount, that all of this is easily available at Character Creation. This is no ridiculous initiation shenanigans, it doesn't involve super secret bioware, it's not a ton of karma invested. It's literally just pushing to the max your Agility in regards to movement at Character Creation. Oh, and did I forget to mention that even without a spirit, you're still gonna have a super high Sneaking skill, default to 11 dice on Agility skills, and probably be rolling 20 or more dice to use a ranged weapon.

So, my question really is this. How would someone handle something like this in a game? Would you allow it? Would you allow the 12 Agility but not the super massive Spirit boost to movement speed? I personally would allow the 12 Agility due to how fun it is, but honestly, do the numbers break a bit at this point? Sure, the same can happen with a Decker and his Logic, but when a single guy can most likely annihilate any type of security available to a starting run's budget (I mean the GM's controlled security), you kind of have a problem. Although, I have to say. If your role is combat, then you're probably set with this kind of build, but I can see some GM's laying down the law when it comes to this; since it can almost be considered abusing the rules.

Side note: Who needs a vehicle for transportation when you can probably outrun most of the bikes? Although, I guess people would find it a little strange if someone flying by at 30+ miles per hour was just running around ...
« Last Edit: <08-30-14/0320:38> by 8-bit »

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6468
« Reply #1 on: <08-30-14/0438:27> »
Not sure I consider this an issue to be honest. In earlier editions you world move twice as fast if you had two"initiative passes" and 3 times if you had 3... With wired reflexes 3 (that you could get out of chargen back then) gave you ridiculous high movement rates.

The agility simplification work pretty well during most circumstances (it is mostly only important during combat anyway;  or more specifically melee combat - and to avoid explosives if you play with run and gun).

Medicineman

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2310
« Reply #2 on: <08-30-14/0504:44> »
Not sure I consider this an issue to be honest. In earlier editions you world move twice as fast if you had two"initiative passes" and 3 times if you had 3... With wired reflexes 3 (that you could get out of chargen back then) gave you ridiculous high movement rates.

The agility simplification work pretty well during most circumstances (it is mostly only important during combat anyway;  or more specifically melee combat - and to avoid explosives if you play with run and gun).
sorry thats wrong :)
Movement was always Meters per Combat round not per Inipass  In SR4A  ! and 3 too (IIRC) !
and even Sprinting added Hits x2 Meters Per Round ! (nor per pass )

@8-Bit
"Borderline Chars "(and a Char with 4 times the AGI of a normal Human , twice the AGI of the most Dextrous & coordinated Humans are at the Border) always break the Rules that are for Standard People.
Thats really nothing new ;) :)
What strikes me as even wronger is that Running/Sprinting is connected to AGI. I'd connect it to BOD (or STR)

With one Dance per Round
Medicineman
« Last Edit: <08-30-14/0514:22> by Medicineman »
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1V7fi5IqYw
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RYlAPjyNm8

ZeldaBravo

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1067
« Reply #3 on: <08-30-14/0526:58> »
It doesn't bother me at all. We all know that agility 12 is high, but how high? That high. You're not just -twice- as agile as best athletes in the world right now. It's more of a geometrical progression so go figure.
*I have problems with clarifying my point in English, so sometimes I might sound stupid or rude.*

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #4 on: <08-30-14/0822:19> »
At a dead sprint: A character that is specialized is agility through implants or magic is approximately 33% then the current Olympic Gold Medalist.

This gets skewed very quickly when one throws in athletics tests and what not.... But I don't really feel this is out of line with what the setting is expecting. (Think the fight scenes in "The Matrix".. only in meat space) while also showing just how abnormal the characters actually are... which means social modifiers...

So while all that agility may let them shine in area of the game, it could hurt them in other areas of the game as well (such as social, setting, or shadowing/info gathering). There are trade offs for every choice a player makes when he builds a character, and a GM that spoon feeds every dice roll right to the a player's strongest dice pool isn't really doing himself, or his player a favor.... (not saying you hammer the agility gunny-bunny with life-or-death social rolls... but you can make his life a little harder).
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

ZeldaBravo

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1067
« Reply #5 on: <08-30-14/0934:42> »
There is no need to punish your players for being powerful. You can just give them a step above the regular runners' routine. Characters that are that capable should have a lot of opportunities ahead of them. 6th world is a big place, there's a lot of stuff to do.
*I have problems with clarifying my point in English, so sometimes I might sound stupid or rude.*

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #6 on: <08-30-14/0935:51> »
Balancing movement speed around the idea that Magic (you know, the thing that allows you to create 18m-radius electric blasts that instakill people, or make people fly, or mind control people) could result in unrealistic numbers seems... peculiar to me - nevermind using arguments which are not at all supported by game mechanics to argue high movement speed turns you into an unstoppable killing machine. There are rules for dodging cars that are trying to ram you (and keep in mind there's a car in the core rulebook with a running rate of 213m/s), and there are rules for dodging bullets, which move up to 1,000m/s. Any character who argues that moving 200m/s should give them bonus damage and make them impossible to hit or evade deserves to get murdered by a sniper or Thor missile. Before the first run, in fact. And 500P for a brick hitting you? A car with Body 10 and a speed of 167+ m/s will deal 100P, and like I said, you're allowed to try and dodge those.

Also, we had a discussion about this once already, and I concluded that with the current system, movement speed is 'only' about 15% too high to accurately match our current record holders on the 100m sprint (it gets more complicated if you take women's times into account). And of course adding in Agility ratings that exceed what our world has will result in faster people than our world has - it wouldn't make sense for it not to.

Basically, if you really want to nerf movement speed, just base it on [Agility x 2 + Strength]/3. If, however, your sole goal is to make sure Agility-12 characters aren't crazy overpowered, there is a very easy method: don't make them overpowered by allowing them to do things the rulebook doesn't support.

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6468
« Reply #7 on: <08-30-14/1057:16> »
sorry thats wrong...
By earlier editions i didn't specifically mean 4th... ;)

...When a player rolls a high Initiative result, he gets extra actions in that turn. Depending on the result, your character might get up to four actions...
Initiative result
1-10 One action per turn
11-16 Two actions per turn
17-22 Three actions per turn
23+ Four actions per turn
...Typical Actions:
Move a number of meters equal to the character's Quickness Attribute. (This can be combined with another action)...

emsquared

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1029
  • Super Perfundo
« Reply #8 on: <08-30-14/1202:39> »
That means that for someone with Bioware, you're going 7.33 meters per second while walking, which means you can walk a mile in 3.65~ minutes.
I'm not arguing that the movement rate isn't ridiculous when compared to reality, but it may help a smidgen to not think of it as walking (despite that being the term used), instead think of it as "controlled tactical movement". Watch a championship IDPA match vid on YouTube and you'll see what I mean. If you lower your center of gravity (sink your hips, keeping knees flexed throughout the entire range of movement) you can move pretty darn quick while having the same level of stability as a walk - or actually greater stability.

8-bit

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #9 on: <08-30-14/1414:56> »
Balancing movement speed around the idea that Magic (you know, the thing that allows you to create 18m-radius electric blasts that instakill people, or make people fly, or mind control people) could result in unrealistic numbers seems... peculiar to me - nevermind using arguments which are not at all supported by game mechanics to argue high movement speed turns you into an unstoppable killing machine. There are rules for dodging cars that are trying to ram you (and keep in mind there's a car in the core rulebook with a running rate of 213m/s), and there are rules for dodging bullets, which move up to 1,000m/s. Any character who argues that moving 200m/s should give them bonus damage and make them impossible to hit or evade deserves to get murdered by a sniper or Thor missile. Before the first run, in fact. And 500P for a brick hitting you? A car with Body 10 and a speed of 167+ m/s will deal 100P, and like I said, you're allowed to try and dodge those.

Also, we had a discussion about this once already, and I concluded that with the current system, movement speed is 'only' about 15% too high to accurately match our current record holders on the 100m sprint (it gets more complicated if you take women's times into account). And of course adding in Agility ratings that exceed what our world has will result in faster people than our world has - it wouldn't make sense for it not to.

Basically, if you really want to nerf movement speed, just base it on [Agility x 2 + Strength]/3. If, however, your sole goal is to make sure Agility-12 characters aren't crazy overpowered, there is a very easy method: don't make them overpowered by allowing them to do things the rulebook doesn't support.

I didn't really know the calculations for damage of a brick moving fast. I just simply used falling damage (which is meter's moved Physical damage). However, I see your point. I'm not saying that magic should make them move faster than a bullet, in fact, that's what I wanted to know, what do others think about this. When I ran the number's for how fast someone was moving, it just seemed absolutely ridiculous to me. I mean, when someone moves 500 miles per hour and is able to maintain 100% control at that speed, they can move through an entire building incredibly fast. I do not have a mastery of the rules, and I've been playing Shadowrun for a fairly short time. All I was asking was for people's opinions on this topic. I thank you for your answer.

"Oh, and don't make them do things in the rulebook that the rulebook doesn't support", that seems like a pretty extreme thought. Yeah, put a limit on what they can do, but some bending of the rules usually makes the best stories and the most memorable games. Like, 'Do you remember that game where our mage was able to make our guy move so fast, that he was able to do recon of the entire building without anybody being able to see him?" Sure, you as the GM might not allow him to see the whole building, but at least give some props for creative thinking there.

There is no need to punish your players for being powerful. You can just give them a step above the regular runners' routine. Characters that are that capable should have a lot of opportunities ahead of them. 6th world is a big place, there's a lot of stuff to do.

This wasn't meant to punish players, I was more thinking about what people's opinion are in terms of this being abusing the system per se. I mean, I know magic is meant to break many boundaries, but this seems to me to be almost as bad as allowing someone to summon a Force 14 Spirit that can slaughter an army pretty much, without letting the Spirit Edge it's roll.

@Everyone Else

Thanks everyone for the input, I was really curious for answers. I may have come up with some stupid math involving a brick, which is what you get when writing at 4 in the morning and you don't completely know the rules. It seems to me as if everyone would be all right with this type of stuff, which is cool with me. All I wanted was what the community thought about this sort of thing, and so that's what I got. Now I don't have to worry about my (not magic) Agility 11 character I've been wanting to play. Again, thanks everyone for the responses, it's really cool to see what everyone else thinks, and it's nice that this community actually has answers to give to my many questions :)

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #10 on: <08-30-14/1523:44> »
"Oh, and don't make them do things in the rulebook that the rulebook doesn't support", that seems like a pretty extreme thought. Yeah, put a limit on what they can do, but some bending of the rules usually makes the best stories and the most memorable games. Like, 'Do you remember that game where our mage was able to make our guy move so fast, that he was able to do recon of the entire building without anybody being able to see him?" Sure, you as the GM might not allow him to see the whole building, but at least give some props for creative thinking there.
Refusing things like "Dealing massive bonus damage because you're so fast", "always hitting because you're so fast" and "being impossible to hit because you're so fast" isn't extreme. My point was that high movement speed isn't overpowered unless the GM makes a conscious decision to make it overpowered, so the answer to "how do I make them not overpowered?" is "don't make them overpowered". Nothing extreme about that.

8-bit

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #11 on: <08-30-14/1531:20> »
Ah, my bad. A little miscommunication there. You are of course right about those other things.

Shrazkil

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 385
« Reply #12 on: <08-30-14/1647:41> »
Incidentally, what bioware are you buying to be at 11 during creation?

8-bit

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #13 on: <08-30-14/1701:21> »
Incidentally, what bioware are you buying to be at 11 during creation?

Elf with Exceptional Attribute - Agility and Used Muscle Toner 3 (11R Availability). Technically, it's 8 (11).

Ryo

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1924
« Reply #14 on: <08-30-14/1704:18> »
Yeah, I don't see this as being a problem at all. Sure they can do crazy stuff with 12 Agility, but 12 Agility is literally the absolute maximum possible to achieve, ever. So you can pull it off at Character Creation? Big deal, that just means you peaked early. It will never get higher than 12.

12 Agility requires an Elf with Exceptional Agility hitting their augmented maximum of +4. You're not only the fastest metatype, but an exceptionally fast example of the fastest metatype, with the absolute maximum bonus you can possibly get to your Agility on top of that. You hit 12 Agility at Character Creation. Congratulations. It will never get higher than that from here on out.

Adding the spirit movement power on top of that is just silly. That's outright magic, afterall. Also, Movement is a really badly designed power. It's a lot worse if you look at what it can do to Vehicles, since it uses the (completely broken and ridiculous) speed rating table.

As an example of how broken Movement is for vehicles, it works by rolling Magic + Willpower with a threshold of half the target's body. If you fail, nothing happens. If you succeed, you multiply the hits (not net hits) by the vehicle's Acceleration rating, and add the result to the Speed for 1 combat turn.

I once had a player use Movement on a Toyota Gopher to try and escape pursuit. It had body 14, so the threshold is 7. He needs a minimum of 7 hits to succeed, and as soon as he got it, he multiplied 7 by the Gopher's acceleration of 2, for 14, and added that to the Speed of 4. So for 1 combat turn, the Gopher was Speed 18.

The Speed table is exponential, with each higher level of speed having double the speed of the rating below it. It ends at Speed 10, so extrapolating forward, Speed 18 has a run rate of 1,310,720 meters per turn, which is 436,906 meters per second, which is 1,283.9 times the speed of sound.

I immediately realized that was bonkers and decided the Speed table capped at 10, so the Gopher was Speed 10. That's still Mach 5, and I ruled that at the end of the next combat turn, the car was hot to the touch, no longer had tires, had all the paint stripped off, and was basically useless. But hey, they got away.
« Last Edit: <08-30-14/1715:48> by Ryo »