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Anyone else annoyed by these tactics?

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Insaniac99

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« on: <07-06-14/0242:55> »
So I've expressed frustration at the poor editing, the rampant and obvious error in the book, but this bit right here is what really upsets me

Buddhism Pg 43
Burnout's Way Pg.157

Both reference Adept Power - Living Focus - But there is no such power in the book.

Living Focus and Keratin Control are both slated for release in an e-book called Shadow Spells, which I assume is going to be similar to the Digital Grimoire from 4th edition.  One of the developers has stated what his intentions are with the powers, but as they are unpublished and unconfirmed, it would be unwise to spell them out currently.

Okay, see I totally get expanding stuff with new books, but when you purposely include items that require stuff that isn't even out yet, or for that matter isn't even officially announced and with a street date it just screams of treating your customers as nothing more than a wad of cash you can pluck from whenever you want. 

I don't like it.  Anyone annoyed and upset by this kind of tactic?
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Ryo

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« Reply #1 on: <07-06-14/0303:25> »
So I've expressed frustration at the poor editing, the rampant and obvious error in the book, but this bit right here is what really upsets me

Buddhism Pg 43
Burnout's Way Pg.157

Both reference Adept Power - Living Focus - But there is no such power in the book.

Living Focus and Keratin Control are both slated for release in an e-book called Shadow Spells, which I assume is going to be similar to the Digital Grimoire from 4th edition.  One of the developers has stated what his intentions are with the powers, but as they are unpublished and unconfirmed, it would be unwise to spell them out currently.

Okay, see I totally get expanding stuff with new books, but when you purposely include items that require stuff that isn't even out yet, or for that matter isn't even officially announced and with a street date it just screams of treating your customers as nothing more than a wad of cash you can pluck from whenever you want. 

I don't like it.  Anyone annoyed and upset by this kind of tactic?

I personally think this error is more incompetence than maliciousness, in that the people writing the books weren't exchanging notes properly, and someone thought Living Focus and Keratin Control were in this book, when really they were put in a different one. But incompetence isn't much better, and it's still very annoying, yes.

Dangersaurus

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« Reply #2 on: <07-06-14/0328:19> »
Okay, see I totally get expanding stuff with new books, but when you purposely include items that require stuff that isn't even out yet, or for that matter isn't even officially announced and with a street date it just screams of treating your customers as nothing more than a wad of cash you can pluck from whenever you want. 

I don't like it.  Anyone annoyed and upset by this kind of tactic?

As annoyed as I am by the piss poor quality control on this book, I'm ambivalent about this. I would rather the books reference each other than ignore each other.

Maybe it would be different if you needed these powers/spells to use the traditions, but that's not the case. They're just suggestions on how to build your character.

Taejix

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« Reply #3 on: <07-06-14/0354:00> »
As annoyed as I am by the piss poor quality control on this book, I'm ambivalent about this. I would rather the books reference each other than ignore each other.

Maybe it would be different if you needed these powers/spells to use the traditions, but that's not the case. They're just suggestions on how to build your character.

Maybe not for the traditions, but you do need those powers in order to access certain techniques listed in the book.

Novocrane

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« Reply #4 on: <07-06-14/0429:26> »
Agreed, but not quite so with Danger. Backwards referencing is ok, but not good. Forward referencing is not - and it only gets worse when it's done without any notification.

Sengir

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« Reply #5 on: <07-06-14/1023:29> »
Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Namikaze

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« Reply #6 on: <07-06-14/1614:51> »
Please bear in mind that I am in no way an employee of Catalyst, or privvy to their inner workings.  I had been told that there is an e-book on the way called Shadow Spells, and that Keratin Control and Living Focus would be included in that book.  That does not mean that these powers will not be retroactively amended to the Street Grimoire.  For what it's worth, I'm in the same boat as most of you - I'd rather have the books be relatively self-contained, and when I saw mention in the core book of future publications that would cover topics that were raised in the core book, I kind of cringed.  This appears to be a similar situation, but I do not know for certain.
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Lucean

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« Reply #7 on: <07-07-14/0125:28> »
Hey, be happy. At least this way they can't put out two fundamentally different versions of the same power within a few months, like they did with Commanding Voice.

Ryo

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« Reply #8 on: <07-07-14/0200:35> »
Hey, be happy. At least this way they can't put out two fundamentally different versions of the same power within a few months, like they did with Commanding Voice.

And Nimble Fingers. And Nerve Strike. I'm pretty sure all the powers that showed up in both were different versions, though Commanding voice is the most glaring example.

Triskavanski

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« Reply #9 on: <07-07-14/0217:48> »
Okay, see I totally get expanding stuff with new books, but when you purposely include items that require stuff that isn't even out yet, or for that matter isn't even officially announced and with a street date it just screams of treating your customers as nothing more than a wad of cash you can pluck from whenever you want. 

I don't like it.  Anyone annoyed and upset by this kind of tactic?

As annoyed as I am by the piss poor quality control on this book, I'm ambivalent about this. I would rather the books reference each other than ignore each other.

Maybe it would be different if you needed these powers/spells to use the traditions, but that's not the case. They're just suggestions on how to build your character.

Well as long as the book that one refers to as having stuff.... Has the stuff it was referred to. Namely I'm referring to Gun Heaven and Run and Gun.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Insaniac99

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« Reply #10 on: <07-07-14/0234:28> »
Please bear in mind that I am in no way an employee of Catalyst, or privvy to their inner workings.  I had been told that there is an e-book on the way called Shadow Spells, and that Keratin Control and Living Focus would be included in that book.  That does not mean that these powers will not be retroactively amended to the Street Grimoire.  For what it's worth, I'm in the same boat as most of you - I'd rather have the books be relatively self-contained, and when I saw mention in the core book of future publications that would cover topics that were raised in the core book, I kind of cringed.  This appears to be a similar situation, but I do not know for certain.

Yes, and I didn't mean to blame you for Catalyst's practices.  You were the easiest to quote that summed up my biggest gripe. 

Agreed, but not quite so with Danger. Backwards referencing is ok, but not good. Forward referencing is not - and it only gets worse when it's done without any notification.
I am only somewhat okay with Backward referencing.  It really depends on how it is done but when done right, I don't have a problem with it.  Forward referencing is only ever okay when it is "If you want more optional rules pertaining to X, check out YYYY that is slated to come out this summer"

Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
This is a fair point, is it malice or complete and utter stupidity (like the sheer number, scale, and obviousness of the errors in their books)? I don't know, but I do know that I want to see change for the better and they don't have an excuse for putting out a product as poor quality as this.  RPGs are a niche pastime, Shadowrun is a niche within a niche, one that I could just as easily duplicate in other systems because it is more about setting fluff than rules.  I choose to pay for and learn the rules because I want to support those who come up with the setting.  With each book I have bought, that desire has dwindled because the quality of the books and is now dwindling more due to the practices (and this isn't a one-off thing, they have done it with Gun-haven 3 and the attachments and a few other times that honestly escapes me at the moment).

I've said this before, when a company has good practices I support them even if I don't need their stuff; I buy stuff twice (physical and digital, or special releases, or whatever) but when a company acts like catalyst I lose the desire to support them.  Something I find a little humourous is that last time I said something I got this reply from JM Hardy,
I will do what I can to at least post something here on a more regular basis, which I admittedly have been bad at.

Jason H.
Now I will admit that he has logged on a little more often, it's only be just over a month since he last logged on, but this reply of his was also the last post he has made on the forum. That's 5 months ago.  I haven't seen any action from the other (Non-demo and non-freelance) Catalyst people.  I don't even feel I have someone who works at Catalyst that I can properly talk to and voice my complaints to, we just sit twiddling our thumbs and take the shoddy work they put out.
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Csjarrat

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« Reply #11 on: <07-07-14/1047:48> »
they have done it with Gun-haven 3 and the attachments
and even then the book they were promised in missed them out completely!!
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DWC

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« Reply #12 on: <07-07-14/1114:09> »
Please bear in mind that I am in no way an employee of Catalyst, or privvy to their inner workings.  I had been told that there is an e-book on the way called Shadow Spells, and that Keratin Control and Living Focus would be included in that book.  That does not mean that these powers will not be retroactively amended to the Street Grimoire.  For what it's worth, I'm in the same boat as most of you - I'd rather have the books be relatively self-contained, and when I saw mention in the core book of future publications that would cover topics that were raised in the core book, I kind of cringed.  This appears to be a similar situation, but I do not know for certain.

I'd be fine with that if the modifications referenced in Gun Haven 3 had actually appeared in Run & Gun as was promised.

Sternenwind

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« Reply #13 on: <07-07-14/1200:42> »
I am sure that tops are no idiots. I am sure you cannot daddle in this special market and survive 7 years by luck alone. They may no write the books by themselves, but they know who they hire. What product they want. And what kind of short term wins versus long term profits balance they need for whatever their goal is.

You can also be sure that they have all the numbers to see if they achieve their goal and if they are on track. There may be ignorance in the play but not stupidity. This much credit, you should give them.

DWC

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« Reply #14 on: <07-07-14/1207:10> »
Shadowrun's editorial process is fundamentally broken at the strategic level.  Either the folks in charge can't figure out how to stop making these mistakes, or they have decided that the problems are not worth fixing since the books continue to break sales records and win awards despite their issues.  I'd rather assume that they're inept than that they are willingly putting out a flawed product because there's no financial incentive in addressing the flaws.