[Senko]

Natural immunity was brought up as possible within the book, and I got to wondering about how exactly that would work. My best answer is a brain that is so unusual the nanites can't adapt to it.

Of course, such a brain wouldn't result in a person anywhere near normal; you're probably talking a combination of autism, ADD or ADHD, chemical imbalance-caused depression, brain damage, and maybe a few other structural issues. Basically, this is not a person who would be capable of functioning in society without a lot of help.

For cures, I would suggest an aggressive combination of electroshock therapy and spirit possession.

I'm not so sure about this I vaguely recall backstory that animal and dragon minds have difficulty with the matrix (as in potentially being driven insane by the exposure) and they are quite capable of functioning normally. I also recall a suggested way to hide your fingerprints when coding/hacking was a skilljack (or something) that changed your behavior markedly enough your identifying marks changed (for example going from short efficient coding to long graceful coding with little hearts above the I's when you get distracted.

Perhaps if you took scans of dragon (or more likely shifter) neural pathways you could upload that to the victims and give the virus fits. Of course while this was in place those cured couldn't use the matrix without risking going insane but if the alternative is being erased?

[SMDVogrin]

Attacking each nanite from the Matrix sounds like it'd work. The only people that tried that were interrupted by an extraction run.

They actually touch on this in the book. The problem is that you're effectively hacking each individual nanite. Then, the rest all focus back on you and counter hack. Now, a decker can handle a simple attack program that deals minimal damage. But get hit with 1,000,000 simple attack programs all at once...

We'd need some blanket/nuke program that could target all of them at the same time.

This is why I see a virus or trojan as a better way to go about it than a direct hack. Then you don't have to hack each nanite, you just have to get the swarm infected and let things take their course. If you were going to do the hack, you'd need to try and hack the nanites as a cloud server, rather than as individual processors. Basically, take all the lessons we learn from Star Trek when they play with the Borg. Use their strength (the hive mind) against them. That's the only way you'll break things loose without destroying everything.

Also, another problem with the cure/vaccine angle is that it is unlikely that the damage will be reparable after a certain level of conversion has happened. I would state that, for instance, the attempted cyborg treatment did a good job of removing the disease, but by that point the patient had already been too badly damaged to recover. There's a window in many diseases where after a certain point even if they are 'cured', they're still going to be royally fragged up for the rest of their life. Take FDR. Survived Polio, but was bound to a wheelchair after that, because polio is a nasty slitch, and even when you've beat it, the damage is already done. So while a complete recovery may be possible for early stages of CFD once a cure is found, those who are in the later stages, especially the final stages, are likely unrecoverable.

Hmm, something to take out a large number of connected matrix nodes, while capable of fighting off a massive number of counterattacking entities...
http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Jormungand

 

[SlowDeck]

If PAX is behind the CFD virus, then is it possible that Jormungand is the earlier version of what we're now facing?

[psycho835]

Once again, I bring up nuking nanites out of existance with magic. A nanite-targeting ram/wreck/demolish spell or maybe a nanite-targeting, physical equivalent of spirit zapper.

Also, what happens when a nano-intolerant individual catches CFD?

[Lanaya]

Once again, I bring up nuking nanites out of existance with magic. A nanite-targeting ram/wreck/demolish spell or maybe a nanite-targeting, physical equivalent of spirit zapper.

It's been tried. High level initiate with a spirit buddy helping out, killed the patient and almost died from the drain. Then something weird happened, possibly the patient coming back to life and trying to kill the doctor and her assistant but we don't really know.

[firebug]

Two things about CFD stand out to me.  One, that as its nature as an artificial intelligence it can be reasoned with and "fought" that way.  As the story with the Adept showed.  They do say that it's not really an solution you could expect out of anywhere near most people, but it plainly worked...  For the most part.

The other is that "electrokinetics" or technomancers can communicate with the PF while concious.  While it did state they often end up just dieing (a better end, I'm sure many would agree) they present a special factor into this equation.  Similar to what Mirikon said, I wonder what Sprites could do to them?  I'd like to see a nanite try to "absorb" a sprite or anything like that. Forget TMs; the matrix may find them weird, but they still has human minds.  But a sprite goes beyond that.  There's free AIs, and then there's free Sprites, and the latter are even more mysterious than spirits.

I'm positive the Resonance and a Free Sprite will be major facets to solving the problems caused by CFD.

But you know?  I think SYBIL will need to be dealt with before it could ever be over.

[Mithlas]

It is like there is two brains so to speak, the basic nanite level performing its duties and adapting as necessary to complete that task and the persona which is carried along and can exert some guidance, but the question remains how much control does the persona really have?

A sort of unified individual mind/hive mind both with the same goal. Hm. Where have I heard that before?


(By the way, sorry for the image neatness, I'd have used Spoiler tags for space control if they were an option.)

Also, another problem with the cure/vaccine angle is that it is unlikely that the damage will be reparable after a certain level of conversion has happened...There's a window in many diseases where after a certain point even if they are 'cured', they're still going to be royally fragged up for the rest of their life. Take FDR. Survived Polio, but was bound to a wheelchair after that, because polio is a nasty slitch, and even when you've beat it, the damage is already done.

Much as Influenza's stronger strains which screwed up people like Woodrow Wilson and led to one of medical science's mysteries in what's come to be known as the Sleeping Sickness because their brains were so badly damaged by influenza that they couldn't hold onto consciousness.

Besides the technomancer angle already brought up, there's the EMP/HERF angle that was brought up that could be a way of slowing things down - though I think that would only be a very short term solution as both are mentioned to be able to mess up cyberware which is hooked into the body's metabolism for at least part of its energy and integration which is the same as so-far-described nanoware. Sybil has to be at least partially if not wholly dependent on 'hard' manufactured nanites.

Perhaps if you took scans of dragon (or more likely shifter) neural pathways you could upload that to the victims and give the virus fits. Of course while this was in place those cured couldn't use the matrix without risking going insane but if the alternative is being erased?

Well, dragons definitely wouldn't cooperate and a lot of shifter difference could be due to innate physiological differences that might be impossible to duplicate even with nanites (and using those leads us back into the problem again).

[Mirikon]

Once again, I bring up nuking nanites out of existance with magic. A nanite-targeting ram/wreck/demolish spell or maybe a nanite-targeting, physical equivalent of spirit zapper.

Also, what happens when a nano-intolerant individual catches CFD?

Rule 1 of magic is that you can only hit what you can see. This is especially true with direct combat spells. The reason it is so hard to target nanites with spells is that even outside of the body, they're too small to see, and inside a body, there's a whole bunch of flesh and bone hiding them.

As for a nano-intolerant individual, the nanites would break down quicker, but since CFD nanites can replicate themselves as long as the person eats, that isn't an issue. May slow the process, but otherwise not going to do anything.

I agree with Firebug that technomancers may be the key to stopping CFD, if only because they can go places and look for code where noone else can. There are many secrets in the Resonance Realms, and only technomancers can go there. It wouldn't be surprising, then, if the answer to Sybil's identity, or especially the key pieces of code that might spell the end of CFD if written into an anti-virus software, were in the Realms somewhere.

Another possibility (which would account for why CFD is seemingly unstoppable) is that Sybil (the original one) is an e-ghost of a technomancer caught in NeoNET's experiments during the whole Emergence drekstorm, and somehow retained her abilities after 'transcending'.

*shudder* Damnit, I'd almost forgotten about those bastards! Make the Borg look cuddly in comparison.

Much as Influenza's stronger strains which screwed up people like Woodrow Wilson and led to one of medical science's mysteries in what's come to be known as the Sleeping Sickness because their brains were so badly damaged by influenza that they couldn't hold onto consciousness.

Besides the technomancer angle already brought up, there's the EMP/HERF angle that was brought up that could be a way of slowing things down - though I think that would only be a very short term solution as both are mentioned to be able to mess up cyberware which is hooked into the body's metabolism for at least part of its energy and integration which is the same as so-far-described nanoware. Sybil has to be at least partially if not wholly dependent on 'hard' manufactured nanites.

Sleeping sickness and the like are exactly what I'm thinking of. A better example may be some forms of cancer, however, especially in this case. You can try cleaning them out as much as you like, using whatever methods you can, but the damage done to that point (both by the disease and your 'cure') still remains, and you can never really get ALL the cancer.

As for EMP/HERF guns, that would only work on hard nanites. CFD nanites build hard and soft nanites from what the infected person intakes. Just from eating, the victim provides the nanites materials to make more soft nanites. If they eat sand or something (which they've been observed to do) they make more hard nanites.

Perhaps if you took scans of dragon (or more likely shifter) neural pathways you could upload that to the victims and give the virus fits. Of course while this was in place those cured couldn't use the matrix without risking going insane but if the alternative is being erased?

Well, dragons definitely wouldn't cooperate and a lot of shifter difference could be due to innate physiological differences that might be impossible to duplicate even with nanites (and using those leads us back into the problem again).

You're both assuming that dragons and shifters can't be infected with CFD. While I suspect it would take much longer than in others, there is nothing in the information we have that says non-metahumans can't be infected with CFD. Yes, that includes nonsapient critters, such as devil rats or the common housecat. The only reason it hasn't made the jump from metahumans to others is that apparently CFD victims can control how 'infectious' they are. At this point, I think we should assume that the only ones not susceptible to CFD are nonphysical entities, such as spirits, sprites, and AIs.

[SlowDeck]

You're both assuming that dragons and shifters can't be infected with CFD. While I suspect it would take much longer than in others, there is nothing in the information we have that says non-metahumans can't be infected with CFD. Yes, that includes nonsapient critters, such as devil rats or the common housecat. The only reason it hasn't made the jump from metahumans to others is that apparently CFD victims can control how 'infectious' they are. At this point, I think we should assume that the only ones not susceptible to CFD are nonphysical entities, such as spirits, sprites, and AIs.

It's already jumped the species barrier.

Page 15 of Stolen Souls, under the headline Nanites On Animals And Paracritters, talks about CFD infection within nonmetahumans, including some paracritters. It actually notes that the infection proceeds normally in larger mammals, including increasing their intelligence. But it goes on to note that the disease has trouble infecting small mammals and non-mammals. It also has been noted to affect paracritters the same way as larger mammals, and that most infected paracritters retain their abilities post-infection.

So, it's safe to say that, likely, this disease can affect both shifters and dragons.

Note this also means that any cure which works on metahumans must also work on normal animals across the board and paracritters. Otherwise, all the cure does is allow the disease time to adapt to it and reinfect metahumans.

That's also why it is that any treatment involving biochemistry is off the board, and also likely why it is EMPs are pretty much a no-go, given how many species are even more sensitive to electromagnetic fields than humans are.

Basically put, we're looking at a potential extinction event that is unrivaled in capacity to permanently screw over all life.

[firebug]

So, it's safe to say that, likely, this disease can affect both shifters and dragons.

Note this also means that any cure which works on metahumans must also work on normal animals across the board and paracritters. Otherwise, all the cure does is allow the disease time to adapt to it and reinfect metahumans.

That's also why it is that any treatment involving biochemistry is off the board, and also likely why it is EMPs are pretty much a no-go, given how many species are even more sensitive to electromagnetic fields than humans are.

Basically put, we're looking at a potential extinction event that is unrivaled in capacity to permanently screw over all life.

I'm glad you understand how incredibly fucking terrifying CFD is.  It's no wonder Butch is practically a husk of a person after studying it for so long.  However, I don't know that "it works on paracritters" is enough to say it works on dragons.  Enough to not want to just write it off as impossible though.

But considering non-meta sentients like Naga and possibly Sasquatch can get Datajacks and use the matrix, while Dragons cannot, I think it can be said that dragons aren't just another paracritter.

Speaking of dragons, how do you think they're reacting to this?  They may have foreseen the Insect Spirits or the Shedim because those things may have happened in the past when the mana reached a certain level.  But CFD isn't like that.

[Novocrane]

> Can’t blame you for being jealous, Pistons. At least you’ve got this advantage on dragons: they don’t react well to even benign/ helpful nanotech. They have an unusually strong immunoresponse to it, essentially. So no blue goo for them.
> Butch

So, it's safe to say that, likely, this disease can affect both shifters and dragons.

Questionable at best.

[Mirikon]

What you're missing, Novocrane, is that 'unusually strong immunoresponse' doesn't mean 'immunity to all nanoweapons' but 'need lots more to work'. And the terrifying thing with CFD is that if even a few nanites survive, they can replicate themselves. Picture cancer that is able to spread host to host like a virus, and that's what we're talking about here.

[Novocrane]

You're assuming I've missed something, and again on how draconic 'immunoresponse' works. Note that while that's the word used, it's also 'essentially' an unusually strong immunoresponse - which isn't quite the same as just saying, "It's an immunoresponse".
I'd stick to the facts on hand, or introduce more, Mir. I may be wrong in introducing a fence to sit on while this plays out, but if so those aren't the words to paint the whole picture.

[ProfGast]

Speaking of dragons, how do you think they're reacting to this?  They may have foreseen the Insect Spirits or the Shedim because those things may have happened in the past when the mana reached a certain level.  But CFD isn't like that.

Well for all we know, dragons or at least a couple specific dragons can be considerd partially responsible for CFD.  Celedyr, NEMA, Boston in SR Online has been hinted to all have CFD connections.

And then there's the testimony of the head case.  By his account at least a faction of the personalities, including the 'original' who he called 'Sybil,' have a burning hatred for those who disassembled and butchered their kind.  Firstly a megacorporation, and secondly, an entity, a traitor called only Cerberus

From Street Legends, Cerberus is the handle for Neurosis, who is also rumored to be the e-ghost of the dragon Eliohann, who was the only known dragon who had a datajack, and supposedly died in 2064 when he was caught in the Matrix during Crash 2.0.  By all accounts he was/is Celedyr's right-claw dragon on all things matrix related.

From what I can gather, the R&D branch of NEOnet was capturing and dissecting matrix entities by the handful and one possible origin of CFD is those entities finding an outlet.  PAX, Deus, even Morgan/Megaera and Mirage who were all MIA post 2064 could be involved.

[Mirikon]

You're assuming I've missed something, and again on how draconic 'immunoresponse' works. Note that while that's the word used, it's also 'essentially' an unusually strong immunoresponse - which isn't quite the same as just saying, "It's an immunoresponse".
I'd stick to the facts on hand, or introduce more, Mir. I may be wrong in introducing a fence to sit on while this plays out, but if so those aren't the words to paint the whole picture.

That's the thing, though. We don't have any facts to suggest that they are immune to the disease. CFD has been proven to be aggressively invasive, adaptable, and inexorable once it gets so much as a toe in the door. In fact, we don't even know what tests to roll to try and resist the initial infection. If it is true that exposure is all that is needed, then once exposed to CFD, anyone and anything can be taken over, in time. We have no facts to suggest otherwise. In all test subjects across metatype and even species, CFD has shown to be UNIVERSALLY infectious. Until we see proof that dragons cannot be infected or overwritten, we should assume that they can be, with all that entails.