[Leevizer]

So, I came across this interesting blog post whilst searching for examples of bad players or gamemasters so I'd know what kind of mistakes to avoid. Well, this popped up.

http://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/10/14/ten-things-hate-shadowrun/#comment-172114

I'm not going to rant or comment about it much here, just wanted to know if you had seen this blog post as well and what you thought about it, or if you hadn't heard about it before I'd like to know what you thought about Grant's... Interesting opinions.

[JD]

In a response to a rule question, someone on this forum (and my apologies for not digging out the real quote) wrote something along the lines of "Normally, the GM will just pull a number out of his ass, the player will grab a handful of dice and try and meet that number." To which most people I have ever played with (and I played every edition of SR) agree completely: nine times out of ten, the rules are a hindrance, not a help, to the flow of the gameplay.

So yes, the rules are, and have always been, a complete train wreck and not very many people really understand them as a whole or in parts. But do we care? HELL NO! The trick is to find a GM that understands the basic mechanics underlying the design of the rules well enough to fake convincingly whenever the players try and do something stupid, i.e. pretty much all of the time. And beer. Beer is good.

[firebug]

They are pretty hilariously nit-picky and not thought through at all.  Seems like the blog of a guy who wanted to find all the problems he could with it without any real reason why.  A big number of them are very specific rules.  I especially like the laughable "man look at how much shit the character who uses a bunch of gear and robots has!  Fuck that!".  He points out flaws that almost PnP game has, which makes me wonder if he's not better suited to card games where he won't need to risk overheating his grey matter.

Long story short, just an angry internet commenter. Angry and raging at insignificant stuff.  Lots of sound and fury, signifying nothing, etc. 

[Slide_Eurhetemec]

Some of those are pretty valid criticisms, actually, not just "internet rage". Others less so.

I mean, let's quickly go through them:

1) Dinosaurs - Semi-valid. It's a fair criticism, but it's not completely accurate.

2) Complexity - Valid and not valid - much of the game has entirely appropriate complexity. Sometimes it's bloody stupid, like the chunky salsa rules. They're just bad rules, straight up, and should definitely be mocked. So he's kind of right.

3) Redundant - Kind of the same point as 1 & 2, here, but yeah, SR5 has a bunch of redundant or useless rules that add to the word count.

4) Math - Similar point to 1, 2, 3, but yes, some of the rules in SR5 are fiddly and not well-designed. Recoil definitely fits that profile, especially because it only affects some weapons, and thus wastes a lot more of some people's time than others. I mean, is this a game about shadowrunning, or is it some kind of Millenium's Edge-esque shooting-simulator? The recoil rules are overcomplicated for the former and inadequate for the latter, and seem really fiddly.

5) Counteract - Not a valid criticism, imho.

6) Dead Man's Trigger - He is 150% correct here. Like, he could not be more right. Dead Man's Trigger is an astonishingly bad piece of design, nitpicky and dumb. It shouldn't require a test and shouldn't require initiative.

7) Wall of Data - Semi-correct. There are a lot of walls of data in SR5.

Er... he only has 7, hmm.

His final complaint, that you need years of experience, is not true, though.

So it's an okay complaint, and not all wrong, but there are a lot of valid complaints he misses (like terrible writing, tons of errors), and he repeats himself an awful lot.

[biotech66]

I guess whenever I see a criticism about math, I tend to tune out those voices.  Yes our games require math.  The math isn't hard.  Heck, its gotten much easier with 5e.  The math before wasn't hard.

When you complain about math, ASK FOR HELP!  Someone will be glad to show you how to do it!

[Michael Chandra]

Also, there's not much difference between how many dice you have in SR, and how much bonus you have in D&D. "Okay, so I got a +3 from my BAB, +3 from my Strength modifier, +1 from the increased Strength from Enlarge Person, +2 from Bull's Strength's bonus Strength, +1 from Bless as whatever bonus, then a different +1 (so it stacks) from Divine Favor, so that's a +11 on my attack. And I don't get the BAB and Divine Favor on my damage, so my damage is +7, and 1d6 becomes 1d8 due to being enlarged..."

Seriously, how is that different from "Okay, I got 8 Agility, 6 Longarms, +3 from my Improved Ability, +2 from my Sniper Rifles Specialization, +1 from my Reflex Recorder, +2 from my Smartlink, so that's 22 dice"?

[Noble Drake]

Also, there's not much difference between how many dice you have in SR, and how much bonus you have in D&D. "Okay, so I got a +3 from my BAB, +3 from my Strength modifier, +1 from the increased Strength from Enlarge Person, +2 from Bull's Strength's bonus Strength, +1 from Bless as whatever bonus, then a different +1 (so it stacks) from Divine Favor, so that's a +11 on my attack. And I don't get the BAB and Divine Favor on my damage, so my damage is +7, and 1d6 becomes 1d8 due to being enlarged..."

Seriously, how is that different from "Okay, I got 8 Agility, 6 Longarms, +3 from my Improved Ability, +2 from my Sniper Rifles Specialization, +1 from my Reflex Recorder, +2 from my Smartlink, so that's 22 dice"?

I have successfully resisted my urge to make sure your D&D example is actually correct, so I'll just go on to answer the question:

It is different because the D&D style is more crap that changes from time to time, where the Shadowrun style is a pretty static number.

The D&D character has a +6 (BAB & Strength) written on his sheet, and then all the rest of those modifiers come and go independently of each other - so the player needs, say, a set of cards to help him keep everything straight and make sure he hasn't forgotten a bonus or applied it to the wrong thing.

That Shadowrun character has 18 (+2 sniper rifles) written on his sheet, and only needs to remember that if his Smartlink is wireless on he gets another +2.
...and in Shadowrun, you never pick up a d6 or a d10 when you meant to roll a d8.

[Michael Chandra]

Pretty much. ^_^ So basically the argument that the math is hard, while talking about playing D&D instead, is silly.

Speaking of: "Uhm, remember how I healed you 3 on 2d6 and you died by 1 HP directly after? I should have rolled 2d8."

[Bewilderbeast]

Honestly, I agree with Slide. Guy has some good points. His critique of Dead Man's Trigger is pretty much spot-on. The complexity of the rules is insane; if I didn't love the setting and flavor of the game so much (where else can you do Ocean's 11 as a spell-casting troll?) I never would have attempted Shadowrun. Also part of the reason why I only play this game in play-by-post. Actual table play seems like it would be fiddly and tedious to me. In play-by-post, if I have to spend an hour looking up a rule at least it won't slow things down.

[SlowDeck]

One of the most popular roleplaying games on the market right now is Pathfinder. Pathfinder is a ruleset descended from DnD that, at current, almost makes the tax code look simple by comparison just due to the rules bloat it has suffered and is continuing to suffer. DnD has, repeatedly, reached the point where you almost need a legal degree just to understand all of the rules and how they interact.

I have no idea how that blog thinks this game is complex when compared to those two, let alone where they get the idea that complex rules systems are dinosaurs when those complex rules systems still rule the market. Most of the rules, from what I've seen, are related to figuring out how many six-sided dice you need to toss. Not figuring how many dice you need to toss, how many sides those dice have, how many dice your opponents need to toss and what sides those have, whether or not the moon is currently in equinox, the flight speed of an unladened swallow, and dividing that by the universal constant (like, say, DnD).

[Method]

I have been following the Look, Robot blog for a few months. He actually writes some very good stuff.  However, his "criticism" of Shadowrun is deeply rooted in his personal preferences regarding game design and role playing.  For comparison, check out his one-shot RPG/adventure "One Last Job" which is free on his site.  Its a very creative concept (and would port easily to SR), but it also features a very bare bones ruleset with story driven mechanics.  I think SR (or any other "dinosaur" RPG) just isn't his thing. 

Having said that, I too agree with some (but certainly not all) of his points.  SR5 has a lot of room for improvement.

[Sipowitz]

The more I've studied the rules the more I have come to thinking it was designed around SR Missions.

Wotc style D&D is just as bloated.

[Bewilderbeast]

One of the most popular roleplaying games on the market right now is Pathfinder. Pathfinder is a ruleset descended from DnD that, at current, almost makes the tax code look simple by comparison just due to the rules bloat it has suffered and is continuing to suffer. DnD has, repeatedly, reached the point where you almost need a legal degree just to understand all of the rules and how they interact.

Well, just to be clear, I don't care for Pathfinder or D&D3.5. So while the blogger might not be logistically consistent in his viewpoints, I'm very much a "less is more" guy when it comes to rules. Shadowrun gets a pass because I love it, but... yeesh. It's the messiest game I still make an effort to play, by a wide margin.

I was one of those guys that actually was pleased by the shift from D&D3.5 to 4e. *dodges a volley of tomatoes*

[Automaton]

I really have just one question, and yes this is the last article I read in that whole blog post.
Its this:

Now, these days we’re in something of a movement towards lighter games. We don’t need massive blocks of stats and numbers to help us define a game world; we need brisk, crisp rules that power reward behaviour and power stories.

I would have liked to see an example here really. Even just one, one that was actually valid that is.
Because any roleplaying game that goes af into world building and with that technology is going to need rules for that technology. Whether that technology is cybertech, biotech, nanotech or magic, you'll need rules to effectively use them. Ofcourse you could just say wing and pretend the whole thing and let everyone make it up as they go player and Storyteller (because thats what that would be, not a GM) alike, but thats a whole other beastie all together

So whats a good tabletop rpg that is lighter, has no massive blocks of stats and numbers, is brisk, crisp and powers reward for behaviour and power stories?...
Because to me anything that does away with that turns into either a fun evening of storytelling or a boardgame, not a rich living  world that you can dive into.
And don't say it's D&D4e, because no it really is not. That's the most messed up version of D&D ever failing at all fronts. It's not easier, it's doesn't function the way it should, and it is more boardgame then roleplaying game with the system not only not helpeing, but being in the way of living in any D&D setting.

As a side note, the fact that this guy failed at actually proving his point and is just spitting out things he doesnt like made me stop after 2. Clearly it's not worth my time reading then.

[Slide_Eurhetemec]

I really have just one question, and yes this is the last article I read in that whole blog post.
Its this:

Now, these days we’re in something of a movement towards lighter games. We don’t need massive blocks of stats and numbers to help us define a game world; we need brisk, crisp rules that power reward behaviour and power stories.

I would have liked to see an example here really. Even just one, one that was actually valid that is.

Because any roleplaying game that goes af into world building and with that technology is going to need rules for that technology. Whether that technology is cybertech, biotech, nanotech or magic, you'll need rules to effectively use them. Ofcourse you could just say wing and pretend the whole thing and let everyone make it up as they go player and Storyteller (because thats what that would be, not a GM) alike, but thats a whole other beastie all together

So whats a good tabletop rpg that is lighter, has no massive blocks of stats and numbers, is brisk, crisp and powers reward for behaviour and power stories?...
Because to me anything that does away with that turns into either a fun evening of storytelling or a boardgame, not a rich living  world that you can dive into.
And don't say it's D&D4e, because no it really is not. That's the most messed up version of D&D ever failing at all fronts. It's not easier, it's doesn't function the way it should, and it is more boardgame then roleplaying game with the system not only not helpeing, but being in the way of living in any D&D setting.

As a side note, the fact that this guy failed at actually proving his point and is just spitting out things he doesnt like made me stop after 2. Clearly it's not worth my time reading then.

This is a bizarre objection. Have you played RPGs other than SR or D&D? Honest question. I can think of dozens of games that fit that profile. Most modern games, even - Savage Worlds, FATE, Tri-Stat, nWoD, Cortex+, even good ol' Cyberpunk 2020 has vastly cleaner, neater and more refined rules than SR5 does.

The reason he is not giving an example there is because anyone who has actually played many RPGs will absolutely not need one. If you want to refute any of my examples, I'm going to expect details, by the way, not hand-waving.