[jorgumander]

So, getting back into Shadowrun after a zillion years or so. Still learning, and you folks have been wonderful. Back then I almost always played Hermetics. I love the idea of using logic, science, and formulae to craft your spells and summon your spirits. However, in the last decade or so, I've really gotten better at playing charismatic characters. I also love the idea of intuitive abilities.

So can you help me with a pro vs. con look at the 2 types of magic users we have so far for 5th edition? Because, right now it honestly looks like shaman have all the advantages. They get to summon on the fly, and have social skills, while hermetics have to plan way ahead for no real benefit. Am I missing something?

[Longes]

Everyone gets to summon on the fly.
Shamans: Charisma limits the number of bound spirits, and is used for Social skills. Shamans will have more bound spirits than hermetics.
Hermetics: Logic is used for more skills than charisma is. Hermetics would be better on nonmagical skills.

[Michael Chandra]

Shamans are quite good at social activity (and Elves love being Shamans), whereas Hermetics have better Mental Limits so do better at Perception, and can be competent First Aiders.

As for Spirits, they basically got Beasts vs Fire. Fire can attack from a range, can move much faster and dodge better, can Engulf. Meanwhile, Beasts have Animal Control, Concealment, have Fear as base rather than as optional, and are better at Unarmed Combat. Not much of a relevant difference since both sides have Air and Earth Spirits available.

[Charasanya]

I think I remember a developer mentioning, that in the upcoming, now current version of Shadowrun, there should have been a greater distinction between the different traditions.

Drain resistance attribute is a factor, but in my opinion not that big a deal. I do hope, that in the inevitably upcoming magic splatbook, there will be options for greater distinction between the hermetic, shamanistic and other upcoming traditions. Logic is quite important for next to all technical and medical skills, as well as mental limit and knowledge skills. Charisma is very important for all social skills, social limit and contacts.

As elves get a rather substantial +2 bonus to charisma, a lot of  players prefer to create shamanistic elves. On the other hand, no race gains a bonus to logic, but that attribute is augmentable via bioware implant, if you choose to take a hit in essence and correspondingly magic rating.

Ultimately it boils down to how you imagine your character and how you want to play him/her. Charming and Intuitive for whom magic is a religious experience, or as a determined logician that calculates magic in rigid formulas and eqations. Its a decision that is as fundamental as gender or race, maybe even moreso.

[Michael Chandra]

Not "should have been", but was intended, and it may be in the Magic book.

[Bewilderbeast]

Personally, Shaman just feels "better" to me from a power-gamey perspective. It's possible to build a Shadowrunner with no Logic-based skills. Every Shadowrunner out there, however, is going to benefit from a good dice pool for things like Con and Etiquette.

The Logic-based skills; mechanics, demolitions, first aid, etc. are nice to have on a team, but something a shadowrunning team can do without. A guy who can't lie to a cop, though, is going to be dead weight in a lot of situations. I really only make a hermetic mage when I have compelling background reasons to do so for the character in mind, or for when I'm planning on getting some cerebral boosters (which I don't think is a really practical path, so that comes down to a flavor thing, too).

[Michael Chandra]

Me, I can't wait unti we get the Magic book, I really hope it will have an Intuition tradition again. Really want to make a Mystic Adept with Quickening and an Intuition tradition.

[jim1701]

I really liked the Druids in the 4th edition magic book.  i had a Celtic druid character with a magic lodge that was  miniature stonehenge in the back yard.   

[faket15]

I really liked the Druids in the 4th edition magic book.  i had a Celtic druid character with a magic lodge that was  miniature stonehenge in the back yard.   

Which does not make much sense at all. Stonehenge is much older than the Celts. We don't even know wheter the Celts coexisted with the descendants of the people who built it or came after they were already dead. The religion and culture of the people who built it is probably closer to the Basques than the Celts.

Of course, at this point I'm being really annoying, but I've already saw much smaller points about other fields of knowledge being discussed to exhaustion in these forums.

[jorgumander]

haha, I think the discussion of Stonehenge is interesting, however if I understand Shadowrun Magic, it's more "if you believe it helps you, then it helps you"

Like I said earlier, I used to prefer Hermetics, but at this point in my life I'm really leaning towards Shamans. I do like that everyone can summon on the fly, as hermetics used to have to plan ahead to get their elementals, but they got them for much longer. I just prefer how the shaman look at the world and how they tend to treat their spirits right now. But I would like more options for each tradition, and see more traditions added.

I'm SERIOUSLY looking forward to seeing some Norse Tradition magic. Cybervikings RAWR!

[Michael Chandra]

I love the Norse Tradition. Had the group run into a Free Valkyrie once that they had to recruit. When the Spirit demanded a million nuyen and their commlinks immediately buzzed "deal", they swallowed hard.

[jorgumander]

I love the Norse Tradition. Had the group run into a Free Valkyrie once that they had to recruit. When the Spirit demanded a million nuyen and their commlinks immediately buzzed "deal", they swallowed hard.

LOL! Nice. What were they recruiting her for? I was thinking of an Einherjar myself. Would give them more questions than answers about the "afterlife" in Shadowrun, as the Einherjar would not answer much about his "past life".

Never thought of a Valkyrie though... I wouldn't mind having one of her for a "mentor spirit" if ya know what I mean? heh

[Michael Chandra]

Their Johnson wanted to have an asset that can change her aura and shape freely and is capable of packing, and taking, a big punch. Also, a constant source of reagents is always nice to have available as way of generating income. A Force 9 Edge 10 Free Spirit quite helps there. (That roll was insane. O_O)

[RHat]

I think I remember a developer mentioning, that in the upcoming, now current version of Shadowrun, there should have been a greater distinction between the different traditions.

Due to issues of "whoa damn this book is too fragging big already", greater differentiation got put off to the Magic book.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Personally, Shaman just feels "better" to me from a power-gamey perspective. It's possible to build a Shadowrunner with no Logic-based skills. Every Shadowrunner out there, however, is going to benefit from a good dice pool for things like Con and Etiquette.

The Logic-based skills; mechanics, demolitions, first aid, etc. are nice to have on a team, but something a shadowrunning team can do without. A guy who can't lie to a cop, though, is going to be dead weight in a lot of situations. I really only make a hermetic mage when I have compelling background reasons to do so for the character in mind, or for when I'm planning on getting some cerebral boosters (which I don't think is a really practical path, so that comes down to a flavor thing, too).

Yes, charisma is a better skill stat than logic.  Logic has more skills, but most of them are either not high value or tied to another archetype so you wont really be using them much.Then in the great design fail of 5e and to a lesser extent 4e charisma just does a shit ton more for magic than logic.  Every single thing in magic that is tied to an attribute is charisma based. Hell even arcana the freaking study of magic got switched to magic because shamans might not be perfect.  Basically if they aren't going to take the time to delineate which stat should be better at what thing in a balanced fashion they should have gone the D&D route and just made all of those items Drain stat.  Want to resist the flaw of your totem, drain stat+willpower, want to see the base DV for a astral combat attack make it drain stat etc.  I'd prefer they broke things up like made all the ritual magic ties be logic, so hermetics could have more watchers/minions, give hermetics arcana while shamans deal better with totems etc.  But as is on a pure power game level Shamans are solidly better than hermetics.  There are tons of reasons to play a hermetic, they just aren't for power game/mechanical reasons. Maybe by the time the magic book comes out they will figure out even if they don't some people like to play hermetics so only catering to shamans isn't in the best interest of the game.  Its all a bunch of little minor things, so it doesn't seem that big but it adds up after a while.