[FasterN8]

One priority level lower is tricky, because E should really stay "Mundane", but it gave me a similar idea.... 

What if you just give the Conjurer 1 more point of Magic wherever the other AMs get spells?  So Pri C would be Magic 4 instead of 3 (~20 karma, the equivalent of 4 spells, and Pri B would be Magic 6 instead of 5 (~30 Karma, the equivalent of 6 spells)

+1 Magic is pretty simple tweak and it automatically scales itself alongside the spells as you go up in Priority levels

[RHat]

One priority level lower is tricky, because E should really stay "Mundane", but it gave me a similar idea.... 

What if you just give the Conjurer 1 more point of Magic wherever the other AMs get spells?  So Pri C would be Magic 4 instead of 3 (~20 karma, the equivalent of 4 spells, and Pri B would be Magic 6 instead of 5 (~30 Karma, the equivalent of 6 spells)

+1 Magic is pretty simple tweak and it automatically scales itself alongside the spells as you go up in Priority levels

Problem being it doesn't add as much to the character as a bunch of spells do, leaving it feeling kinda meh.  Mathematically it would work out, but in terms of player perception I'm not so sure.

[FasterN8]

Well, given the breadth of utility the Conjurer already has compared to a spellcaster, I feel like the conjurer already has an edge against the other two.  You're right that the bonus is kind of vanilla, but adding more utility than they already have might be unbalancing.

If you think about it Conjurers of ANY level start out with 5 types of spirit and between those 5 have a long list of standard optional powers they draw on at any given time.  Compare that to a Spellcasting adept who can cast a handful of spells that he has to sustain himself, and the conjurer doesn't look to shabby.

I do have one question.  If a Aspected Conjurer summons a spirit with the Spellcasting ability, what spells (if any) does it have?

[DigitalZombie]

@FasterN8 I agree, summoners are versatile (and I dont have enough experience with them to spilt them from the other 2) Im afraid that that spellcasting spirit wont have any spells to cast :/

Was it in SR4s streetmagic that they had rules for expert aspected magicians? it just gave them + 2 in their field (dunno if a potentially +2 expert +2 mentor +2spec is too much though) maybe give them +2 to their drain pool?

While its true that according to my houserule, Im giving the aspected mages a bonus thats potentially just temporary (foci) a lot of things work that way, like exchanging karma for cash, choosing a higher resource priority instead of skills to get a (potentially temporary) cool car etc.

[RHat]

Well, given the breadth of utility the Conjurer already has compared to a spellcaster, I feel like the conjurer already has an edge against the other two.  You're right that the bonus is kind of vanilla, but adding more utility than they already have might be unbalancing.

If you think about it Conjurers of ANY level start out with 5 types of spirit and between those 5 have a long list of standard optional powers they draw on at any given time.  Compare that to a Spellcasting adept who can cast a handful of spells that he has to sustain himself, and the conjurer doesn't look to shabby.

I do have one question.  If a Aspected Conjurer summons a spirit with the Spellcasting ability, what spells (if any) does it have?

Ah, but the sorcerer gets to augment a different skillset with his spells, as does the enchanter with his preparations.  If you've got a decent combat skillset, for example, and the Increase Reflexes, Increase Intuition, Increase Agility, and Combat Sense preparations ready to go, you can be pretty freaking awesome (passive defense pool of, say, 22).  Spellcasters get to throw around Area Indirect Combat Spells between shots to reset recoil and tear up the field or toss a reckless cast Ice Sheet while trying to shoot out the tires on the pursuing vehicle...  Having it at that low priority allows for some very synergistic combinations, and that's a benefit that conjurers just don't get (spirits are spirits, and don't really have those kinds of synergies) while dealing with the most capricious Drain around (at Force 6, the Drain value can be anywhere from 2 to 12)

[FasterN8]

Ah, but the sorcerer gets to augment a different skillset with his spells, as does the enchanter with his preparations.  If you've got a decent combat skillset, for example, and the Increase Reflexes, Increase Intuition, Increase Agility, and Combat Sense preparations ready to go, you can be pretty freaking awesome (passive defense pool of, say, 22).  Spellcasters get to throw around Area Indirect Combat Spells between shots to reset recoil and tear up the field or toss a reckless cast Ice Sheet while trying to shoot out the tires on the pursuing vehicle...  Having it at that low priority allows for some very synergistic combinations, and that's a benefit that conjurers just don't get (spirits are spirits, and don't really have those kinds of synergies) while dealing with the most capricious Drain around (at Force 6, the Drain value can be anywhere from 2 to 12)

You're totally right, Spell casters are infinitely customizable, and can do a lot of things that Conjurers can't, but no spellcaster can know all the spells, and without free spells, AMs are especially impaired (at least starting out).  Spellcaster definitely have a wider scope of spells to choose from and can cherry-pick the combination they like best.

Conjurers on the other hand are basically set in their catalog of special abilities as soon as they choose their tradition.  But every conjurer gets the WHOLE catalog right off the bat.  By my count that's like 12-18 special "spell-like" powers depending on if you include their combat powers like elemental attack and auras.

And it's hard to quantify the "fire-and forget" aspect of using spirits rather than the hands-on requirements of LOS and sustaining required by spellcasters.

[RHat]

Ah, but the sorcerer gets to augment a different skillset with his spells, as does the enchanter with his preparations.  If you've got a decent combat skillset, for example, and the Increase Reflexes, Increase Intuition, Increase Agility, and Combat Sense preparations ready to go, you can be pretty freaking awesome (passive defense pool of, say, 22).  Spellcasters get to throw around Area Indirect Combat Spells between shots to reset recoil and tear up the field or toss a reckless cast Ice Sheet while trying to shoot out the tires on the pursuing vehicle...  Having it at that low priority allows for some very synergistic combinations, and that's a benefit that conjurers just don't get (spirits are spirits, and don't really have those kinds of synergies) while dealing with the most capricious Drain around (at Force 6, the Drain value can be anywhere from 2 to 12)

You're totally right, Spell casters are infinitely customizable, and can do a lot of things that Conjurers can't, but no spellcaster can know all the spells, and without free spells, AMs are especially impaired (at least starting out).  Spellcaster definitely have a wider scope of spells to choose from and can cherry-pick the combination they like best.

Conjurers on the other hand are basically set in their catalog of special abilities as soon as they choose their tradition.  But every conjurer gets the WHOLE catalog right off the bat.  By my count that's like 12-18 special "spell-like" powers depending on if you include their combat powers like elemental attack and auras.

And it's hard to quantify the "fire-and forget" aspect of using spirits rather than the hands-on requirements of LOS and sustaining required by spellcasters.

Enchanters get that "fire-and-forget" benefit too, since they don't have to be on hand for Touch or Timed preparations.  Conjurers are pretty good in terms of conjuring, but a well-synergized sorcerer or enchanter is much better off (and free spells/preparations put that in much easier reach).  So if free spells/preparations are being added for sorcerers and alchemists, conjurers need to have an interesting addition as well.

[FasterN8]

Well I'm all for interesting solutions as long as they're balanced.  And we've thrown out a lot of good ideas here. 

I would very much like to see the AM be a more interesting choice and if somebody comes up with a good set of houserules for them, I'd definitely be interested in hearing how they playtest against other magical types.

[Dracomax]

What about giving the Conjurer the +1 Magic, and either a +1 to their skill group, or Some Karma number of the following qualities: Spirit Afinity(7), Mentor Spirit(5), Magic Resistance(6/rating), or Focused Concentration(4/rating).

It'd take some balancing to get numbers right, but it'd allow us to add some number of karma worth of spells to the other two, and something fun and mechanically satisfying to the conjurer.

[RHat]

What about giving the Conjurer the +1 Magic, and either a +1 to their skill group, or Some Karma number of the following qualities: Spirit Afinity(7), Mentor Spirit(5), Magic Resistance(6/rating), or Focused Concentration(4/rating).

It'd take some balancing to get numbers right, but it'd allow us to add some number of karma worth of spells to the other two, and something fun and mechanically satisfying to the conjurer.

I'm beginning to think that things which currently exist in the rules will not prove sufficient.

[Dracomax]

What about giving the Conjurer the +1 Magic, and either a +1 to their skill group, or Some Karma number of the following qualities: Spirit Afinity(7), Mentor Spirit(5), Magic Resistance(6/rating), or Focused Concentration(4/rating).

It'd take some balancing to get numbers right, but it'd allow us to add some number of karma worth of spells to the other two, and something fun and mechanically satisfying to the conjurer.

I'm beginning to think that things which currently exist in the rules will not prove sufficient.

Not that I necessarily disagree, but why? What kind of change outside the rules would you accept?

If it's the idea that nothing can compare to free spells, then the conjurer should just be a lower priority, even if it gives them an option at E.  If it's the idea that nothing balances with free spells, then the cost of spells needs to be seriously looked at. If it is that you just don't like the options that are available, then balance has nothing to do with it.

I'm trying to understand where the imbalance is and find ways to fix it that aren't boring or unbalanced, because I want the AM to be a valid option. I don't want to go completely outside the rules, because I'll be teaching it to people who have never played Shadowrun before. Small house rules and errata are fine, but inventing stuff out of whole cloth probably won't be. I'm going 5th edition because it is the new edition, and most of what is released and available for the next few years will be in this edition. So, fixing the problem as best we can within the current ruleset, until another option is released by the creators or errata'd in is the best I can do.

Even if it isn't perfect, something close should suffice for now.

[norwalkvirus]

I like this idea:

Priority   Sorcery/Enchanting   Conjurer*
 B       9 Spells/Formulae    45 Karma
 C       6 Spells/Formulae    30 Karma
 D       3 Spells/Formulae    15 Karma
   *The Aspected Conjurer's bonus Karma must be spent on magical resources, skills, or qualities before game start. The karma can, without limit, be converted into Nuyen that must be used to purchase magical equipment.

Alternately, you can just give Karma as a bonus to each of the archetypes. A further alternative would include having Qualities purchased with these bonus karma to not count against the positive quality limitation (or even just the first quality purchased this way). I would allow this Karma to be spent on breaking up the Skill Group (if desired) by increasing skills or through Specialization.

This way, the Aspected Magician can actually be better than an equal priority Magician within his specialty and the player can do it in whatever way the player decides (Foci, Lodges, Skills, Qualities, Gear). I don't believe these adjustments make the Aspected Magician overpowered (overshooting the mark), though it might need testing & tweaking.

[RHat]

See, I'm trying to solve a design problem, so my concern here is to find something that is as meaningful for a conjurer as spells or preparations are for a sorcerer or alchemist.  Basically, a bunch of spells or preparations coupled with the right skills and attributes creates a synergy that lets those spells/preparations, skills, and attributes have a much greater impact on how a character functions in the game than either could on their own.  Spirits, meanwhile, don't present such synergies, and in fact the conjurer gets less from spirits than the full mage because the bound spirit services are meaningless for them.  Something like a new way to spend spirit services that somehow could work with other skillsets would be interesting, but just how to make such a thing work for Materialization spirits I'm not sure...

[DigitalZombie]

@RHat maybe access to more optional spirit powers gained at each 3rd force level? Either expand their current list somehow, or give them the ability to get more spirit powers per force of the spirit? The ability to lose 2 services from one spirit to gain 1 service on another spirit of equal force? Spend 1 edge to let the spirit of man use any one spell once? Extra summoning resistance?

Personally I wouldnt give the summoner "special" tricks without giving some to the 2 other aspected mages.

[Insaniac99]

Perhaps just allowing the summoner more summoned spirits at a time?