[ZeConster]

Curl? As in the winter olympics sport? Wouldn't that require averaging in 4e and 5e, since you're using your legs and your torso for balance?

[Crunch]

Non-combat Agility-based skills you only need one limb for: Palming
Non-combat Agility-based skills you need more than one limb for: Escape Artist (unless they handcuff a single limb to something, and then your Physical limit still applies), Gymnastics, Sneaking
Non-combat Strength-based skills you need more than one limb for: Running, Climbing (part of Gymnastics), Swimming, Lifting

Of course based on what Aaron says, all of the skills here will still be using his natural Physical limit and so the Limbs are only helping your pool Size for them.

But dumping Agility does nothing to your limit.

[Shade]

Curl? As in the winter olympics sport? Wouldn't that require averaging in 4e and 5e, since you're using your legs and your torso for balance?

Hahahah...No no, a bicep curl. Now I've got images of someone with Kid Stealth cyberlegs and cyberskates(iceskates) doing olympic curling.

[Michael Chandra]

The limb can't go past racial maximum and can only get +3 after being enhanced after that, so it's still within limits.

[All4BigGuns]

Crunch I agree. However this just occured to me. Customized is to your fame and musculature. To me this says you customize to your base stats (assuming no other ware for the sake of example). A person with st1 ag1 would actually lose points on a cyberlimb if customized. That may be part of why it works the way aaron is stating (assuming he is correct).

There are a few of us who think that the "to your frame and musculature" means that, but some munchkin generally comes in and blasts whoever suggests it.

Good explanation for how I think is the proper reading:

Character A has a Body of 5, Agility of 4 and Strength of 4.
He buys a Cyber Arm and can customize it up to those values (but no higher), and then he can choose to enhance from there.

This does not in any way screw the Cyber Arm user, nor does it make that individual any better off than those who didn't take the Cyber Arm.

[Chrona]

But dumping Agility does nothing to your limit.

Correct... but i don't know why that's a reply to what I said? All i said was that Limbs will only be helping your dice pools for those skills and not the Limit. They all (I assume, correct me if i'm wrong) use the Natural Physical Limit, so someone with Cyberlimbs that have higher Str and Bod still wont get a higher limit for the skill tests. I wasn't talking about Agility.

[Chrona]

Character A has a Body of 5, Agility of 4 and Strength of 4.
He buys a Cyber Arm and can customize it up to those values (but no higher), and then he can choose to enhance from there.

I'm going to continue to go by what Aaron says, that custom limbs can have attributes over your current natural. Personally though, in 4th Ed, I usually never bought a custom limb with attributes higher than my own anyway (then enhanced from there)

[Michael Chandra]

There are a few of us who think that the "to your frame and musculature" means that, but some munchkin generally comes in and blasts whoever suggests it.

Leaving aside that that is NOT what is written, you're actually calling us munchkins for that? Because bugger straight off if you're actually resorting to calling us names when I have always done my utmost best to not target you personally no matter how stubborn you were on an issue, targetting your arguments and never you. Either you apologize for calling us munchkins, or you prove we should never try to debate with you because you WILL decide to stoop to personal insults, and no matter how much you ask "I'm not rude am I?" the answer will then always be "yes, you are, and leave me alone".

[Unahim]

Not even sure how I can be a munchkin on this issue when I have no character that uses this, or any intent to make such a character.

[ZeConster]

Not even sure how I can be a munchkin on this issue when I have no character that uses this, or any intent to make such a character.

Same here, but it's entirely possible A4BG wasn't talking about people on the forum, but people at the tables (of course, if it's not at his table, it's not like it affects him ). But I do share his feeling of annoyance at munchkins who want everything yesterday: "Give us more nuyen from runs without increasing the run frequency or difficulty. Increase my chargen nuyen so I can have more vehicles and ware. Give me a 9/9 cyberarm." It's a little grating, I guess.

[Chrona]

I implore you all to use pms if you start to argue or need to personally disscuss harsh words instead of doing it in my thread. Anyone who wants to continue to talk, debate and disscuss cyberlimbs and limits can continue to do so. I'll stop back in after I sleep.

[All4BigGuns]

Not even sure how I can be a munchkin on this issue when I have no character that uses this, or any intent to make such a character.

Same here, but it's entirely possible A4BG wasn't talking about people on the forum, but people at the tables (of course, if it's not at his table, it's not like it affects him ). But I do share his feeling of annoyance at munchkins who want everything yesterday: "Give us more nuyen from runs without increasing the run frequency or difficulty. Increase my chargen nuyen so I can have more vehicles and ware. Give me a 9/9 cyberarm." It's a little grating, I guess.

There are a few of us who think that the "to your frame and musculature" means that, but some munchkin generally comes in and blasts whoever suggests it.

Leaving aside that that is NOT what is written, you're actually calling us munchkins for that? Because bugger straight off if you're actually resorting to calling us names when I have always done my utmost best to not target you personally no matter how stubborn you were on an issue, targetting your arguments and never you. Either you apologize for calling us munchkins, or you prove we should never try to debate with you because you WILL decide to stoop to personal insults, and no matter how much you ask "I'm not rude am I?" the answer will then always be "yes, you are, and leave me alone".

Until you all stop trying to say that those who want more generation (generation only--and only going to what was the maximum in 3rd at that) resources are somehow "wanting something for nothing" to open up more character ideas and apologize for even implying such, I'll apologize. Until then, you can "bugger straight off".

With that, I'm out of the thread.

[ZeConster]

<counterrant start>

Until you all stop trying to say that those who want more generation (generation only--and only going to what was the maximum in 3rd at that) resources are somehow "wanting something for nothing" to open up more character ideas and apologize for even implying such

You are once again seeing things entirely too black-and-white, and misreading what other people are saying. I feel that if you say "if your players are looking for side income, [it always means] you are not paying them enough, so you should increase the payouts [even if you don't increase the run frequency or difficulty]", you are saying they should get something for nothing, and I will most definitely not apologize for saying that.

When it comes to SR5's chargen system, the fact is simply that I don't see the need for more nuyen on the priority levels: I don't see it as "wanting something for nothing" at all, I just see it as an immense misunderstanding - and yes, a little spoiled-ness, because they want to be able to get the same amount of gear when I feel you can make better and more balanced characters even with less gear - on the side of those who want more nuyen, and I will most definitely not apologize for saying that either.

Now, if I've upset you by poking a little fun at the large inconsistencies in your recent statements on things, then I do apologize for pushing things too far. However, I will most definitely not apologize for doing something I did not do, nor should I have to, especially to someone who uses the term "munchkin" so vaguely that a bunch of people who aren't being munchkinny at all, since they don't even use the part of the game that is being discussed, feel as if they are being targeted by the remark, then instead of either apologizing, explaining his statement, or explaining he did not mean to accuse them, posts that he feels that he should be apologized to first before he will apologize.
<counterrant end>



Now, regarding cyberlimbs and limits, I feel that everything that can be said, has been said. By RAW, they're not restricted by the augmentation limit of +4; they don't affect your physical limits; they have plenty of downsides, and if you don't feel the downsides are strong enough, you can always houserule them.

[Shade]

Regardless of any names called, BigGuns interpreted it the exact same way I did as well as a few other people, I imagine.

pg. 456: You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature.

Now it does go on to say up to the maximum natural limits. But to me, that's a conflict immediately. Your natural limits is most definitely NOT your frame and musculature
I know we're dealing with sci-fi/fantasy here, but I think most of us expect some modest level of realism with regards to the sci-fi. Let's take a Strength 1 human. I'm going to use American measurements for ease, to save me the time of typing conversions repeatedly. A human with 1 strength is probably not capable of bench pressing 100 lbs. Probably 70 or so. Now let's take a 6 strength human. This individual might well be able to bench press 500 pounds. There is simply no way to justify an arm capable of the 500 pounds fitting in that person's 'frame and musculature'. The effects on both bone density, size, and muscle of weight lifting for extended periods of time can be pretty drastic. That arm would literally not fit in the other person's socket. Now technology could make something strong enough, small enough. But again, USING that arm would absolute destroy the surrounding muscle and bone as it is not accustomed to or equipped for the weight. I'm not trying to be combative here, nor argue that the official ruling is somehow unofficial. But I won't run it that way in my games for the reasons outlined here. Cyberlimbs are still incredibly powerful without being able to exceed the base stat +4.

[ZeConster]

Regardless of any names called, BigGuns interpreted it the exact same way I did as well as a few other people, I imagine.

pg. 456: You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature.

Now it does go on to say up to the maximum natural limits. But to me, that's a conflict immediately. Your natural limits is most definitely NOT your frame and musculature

Cyberlimbs, SR4A:

Customized cyberlimbs: These limbs are tailored and customized to the intended user’s frame and musculature.

Back then, cyberlimbs could also be customized up to their owner's natural maximum: raising them further required enhancements (which went up to rating 7, and only cost 250xRating for Str/Agi, against 1500 per point for customization - both significantly cheaper than in 5th edition). So I don't think a line they copied from 4th edition somehow means something different in 5th.

Also, A4BG has said in a previous topic about cyberlimbs that although he feels they should work like that (customization only allowed up to current, instead of maximum, attribute rating), by the current rules they don't.