[Michael Chandra]

What Acolyte said, with the added note that Spirits have Edge equal to F/2 (a fair rebalance from the overkill F in SR4). That rule, by the way, was in Street Magic as well, together with the rule that Spirits can (and under specific circumstances will) use Edge to resist Summoning. So these rules are clearly not meant to contradict each other.

The idea is that Summoners would argue that a specific roll was part of what the Spirit MUST succeed in, so the Spirit was supposed to use its Edge. Against that a rule was made clear that this was indeed not intended and would not happen. If I recall correctly, SR4 did not have the option SR5 introduces, namely that the Summoner uses their own Edge for such crucial rolls.) So it was meant against abusing a Spirit's Edge Pool by the Summoner, and still is. RAI of this rule thus is completely unrelated to using the Edge againt Summoning

[Reaver]

it should also be noted that Spirits (the GM) should also only use edge to resist a summons when the mage doing the summoning has a repeated history of abusing spirits. Same with the sacrificing of Force to break a summons.

it should be rare.... and should be only used when a mage treats his spirits as dirt.

[Michael Chandra]

Correct. Or against Oversummoning, where being nice to spirits and/or having Spirit Affinity might let the GM tolerate you on low oversummoning. Of course Oversummoning isn't supposed to be a regular thing to do, whereas simply Summoning your Magic in Force is quite logical.

[Reaver]

Correct. Or against Oversummoning, where being nice to spirits and/or having Spirit Affinity might let the GM tolerate you on low oversummoning. Of course Oversummoning isn't supposed to be a regular thing to do, whereas simply Summoning your Magic in Force is quite logical.

agreed!

But also remember that over summoning is a sign of disrespect to the spirit, so they are never happy campers when it DOES work and you have a positive rep in the spirit world....


it is a foolish mage that treats spirits poorly for any length of time, and then tries to OVERsummon.... The Spirit that answered just might be out for blood.... and that blood just happens to be in the summoner....






Which leads me to an interesting thought.... it says that the spirit "will return to wherever it was when you summoned it" when it's services are done, or at sun up/down.... but does that mean right away? Could a spirit CHOOSE to stick around... and you know, beat the tar out of the summoning mage cause it's pissed at him??


Food for thought.

[Michael Chandra]

Breaking free required an Edge(3) Test, +2 if experienced with the human realm, unbound -4, could BURN Edge to add Edge to the pool, net hits became Edge. Nowadays Spirits have less Edge so they might change the -4 and +2.

The rules explicitly state a spirit goes uncontrolled if Binding results in a knockout or critical glitch, on Rebinding only a critical glitch. No specific statement on simple Summoning but if a Spirit Edges its anti-Summoning roll against Oversummoning there's already a fatality chance.

[Reaver]

Breaking free required an Edge(3) Test, +2 if experienced with the human realm, unbound -4, could BURN Edge to add Edge to the pool, net hits became Edge. Nowadays Spirits have less Edge so they might change the -4 and +2.

The rules explicitly state a spirit goes uncontrolled if Binding results in a knockout or critical glitch, on Rebinding only a critical glitch. No specific statement on simple Summoning but if a Spirit Edges its anti-Summoning roll against Oversummoning there's already a fatality chance.

No, no, no, that not what I mean

I mean the Mage Over summons, the spirit show s up and goes "yea, what you want?" the mage tells it, the spirit does it... then goes "Hey by the way, THIS is for being a dickhead!!" and smashes the mage one.

could it happen? or is the spirit sent back as soon as it's services are done, or does it have the choice to stick around if it wanted.... (and by extension, have the opposite effect where it voluntarily helps out the summoner due to his positive rep in the spirit world?

[RHat]

Breaking free required an Edge(3) Test, +2 if experienced with the human realm, unbound -4, could BURN Edge to add Edge to the pool, net hits became Edge. Nowadays Spirits have less Edge so they might change the -4 and +2.

The rules explicitly state a spirit goes uncontrolled if Binding results in a knockout or critical glitch, on Rebinding only a critical glitch. No specific statement on simple Summoning but if a Spirit Edges its anti-Summoning roll against Oversummoning there's already a fatality chance.

No, no, no, that not what I mean

I mean the Mage Over summons, the spirit show s up and goes "yea, what you want?" the mage tells it, the spirit does it... then goes "Hey by the way, THIS is for being a dickhead!!" and smashes the mage one.

could it happen? or is the spirit sent back as soon as it's services are done, or does it have the choice to stick around if it wanted.... (and by extension, have the opposite effect where it voluntarily helps out the summoner due to his positive rep in the spirit world?

It is possible for a Spirit to randomly become free - I think SR4's rules for it involved an Edge test...

[Reaver]

Breaking free required an Edge(3) Test, +2 if experienced with the human realm, unbound -4, could BURN Edge to add Edge to the pool, net hits became Edge. Nowadays Spirits have less Edge so they might change the -4 and +2.

The rules explicitly state a spirit goes uncontrolled if Binding results in a knockout or critical glitch, on Rebinding only a critical glitch. No specific statement on simple Summoning but if a Spirit Edges its anti-Summoning roll against Oversummoning there's already a fatality chance.

No, no, no, that not what I mean

I mean the Mage Over summons, the spirit show s up and goes "yea, what you want?" the mage tells it, the spirit does it... then goes "Hey by the way, THIS is for being a dickhead!!" and smashes the mage one.

could it happen? or is the spirit sent back as soon as it's services are done, or does it have the choice to stick around if it wanted.... (and by extension, have the opposite effect where it voluntarily helps out the summoner due to his positive rep in the spirit world?

It is possible for a Spirit to randomly become free - I think SR4's rules for it involved an Edge test...

there was the "point of death willpower test" for a spirit to "break free" from a summoner that was dying (or unconscious if I recall right)


but I don't remember anything that said if a spirit could choose to stay or not... which is what I am kinda talking about..... Basically choose to hang around AFTER it has performed it's tasks....






hmmmm... I guess if they did, there would be A LOT of free spirits floating about.... but the fluff in some of the books makes it sound like there ARE a lot of free spirits too.. (Storm front is a good example... Alaimais, Denver..)

[Anarkitty]

It is only the power of the Summons that is forcing the spirit to materialize, but it is also that power that is allowing the spirit to materialize.  When it stops, the spirit disappears whether it wants to or not. 
If it has the ability, it could then astrally travel to the Mage's location, Materialize under its own power and pop him in the chops, but that would happen after it reappears at its original location.  That would have to be one seriously pissed off spirit to go to that trouble, though.  More likely it would go hang out with its spirit buddies and gossip about the asshat that just summoned it.

[Reaver]

It is only the power of the Summons that is forcing the spirit to materialize, but it is also that power that is allowing the spirit to materialize.  When it stops, the spirit disappears whether it wants to or not. 
If it has the ability, it could then astrally travel to the Mage's location, Materialize under its own power and pop him in the chops, but that would happen after it reappears at its original location.  That would have to be one seriously pissed off spirit to go to that trouble, though.  More likely it would go hang out with its spirit buddies and gossip about the asshat that just summoned it.

yea... that was kinda my thinking too, but I thought I would put the question out there...