[Noble Drake]

Come on, anyone who's ever lifted anything from the ground up knows it's not exactly a finesse thing. Grip and lift; not very carefully coordinated, is it.

I feel you are underselling the differing number of muscles, and their locations in the body, that are actually engaged by lifting something off the ground - especially if you are doing something more than just picking it straight up and dropping straight back down.

As an example, an anecdote from my former occupation: I would move 80 lb bags of concrete mix from a palette to a trailer or truck over and over for hours each day.

You lift with your legs, but your back muscles stabilize you, and your shoulders and arms are used to move the bag into place... all while your grip strength is required to keep hold of the bag.

That is coordination between the limbs, and should absolutely use the weakest of those involved to determine ability - you can't keep a hold on the bag if your grip is weak, can't maneuver the bag if your arms are weak, can't lift the bag if your legs are weak, and are going to seriously hurt yourself if your back muscles are too weak to keep you stable.

[martinchaen]

I don't think we need to discuss this any more, because we clearly have different opinions about what cyberlimbs entail. As I see it, the core (heh) difference in our views is that I see a cybertorso and a skull as a shell rather than a limb, and that these won't be involved, and this next bit is the important part, from a game mechanics standpoint. You believe that they will.

We've clearly exhausted our arugments, as we're now just going back and forth over real world examples, which have little to no impact on the rules. You say torsos and skulls are limbs and should be included when considering average or weakest limb, I don't. There, that pretty much sums it up. Until we get official clarification, I'll refrain from discussing this with you any more.

Noble Drake; I am indeed oversimplifying the process, because I feel that the game mechanics do not account for real world examples.

While I agree that in your example, 80lbs bags of powder is going to be heavily wearing on your back if you carry it stretched out in front of you or over your shoulder, I also feel like futuristic cybernetic replacements could have the potential to alleviate this action by carrying the bag neatly tucked underneath the arm, close to the body. Since we don't know how these futuristic limbs are connected to the frame of the person using them, this whole argument becomes kind of moot.

Again, from a game mechanics point of view I don't see the torso as being that involved; if that is indeed the case from a design standpoint, cyberlimbs just became a horribly inefficient way of upping your strength, which I think is a shame because cyberlimbs, along with cyber eyes, are such a staple of the setting to me.

To put the previous example in context, if the torso is indeed counted as a limb for the purposes of tests (whatever the nature), the costs raise significantly.
In total, a STR and AGI 3 suite of two arms, two legs, and a torso would cost at least 80k nuyen and 5.5 essence. The same as alpha would be 96k nuyen and 4.4 essence.

Due to the added essence cost, it would no longer be possible to do this with Used grade 'ware.

Each attribute rating point (STR and AGI individually) above 3 would cost 25k nuyen (5k*5) for standard and 30k (6k*5) for alpha, up to (presumably) racial maximum.
In total, a STR and AGI 6 suite of two arms, two legs, and a torso would total at least 230k nuyen and 5.5 essence. The same as alpha would be 276k nuyen and 4.4 essence.

Each enhancement point above racial max would cost 32.5k (6.5k*5) nuyen for standard and 39k (6.5k*5*1.2) for alpha, up to racial max plus three.
In total, a STR and AGI 9 suite of two arms, two legs, and a torso would total 405k nuyen, and 5.5 essence. The same as alpha would be 486k nuyen, and 4.4 essence.

Tell me, if this is how the rules are intended to work, when would anyone ever use these items? The essence and nuyen cost is so prohibitively high that it completely negates the usefulness of these mods, as enhancing strength through muscle replacement or muscle augmentation/toner is cheaper in all respects except karma spent on attributes. It's borderline with four limbs, but adding a requirement for the torso pushes it over the edge in terms of cost effectiveness.

[EDIT]
The above also seems to be directly contradicting the intention of the writers;
"On the other hand, [cyberlimbs] are cheap and easy to service and upgrade, so in the end they became even more popular for the less fortunate."
Cyberlimbs always were the poor man's choice, but the way it's being interpreted from a game mechanics standpoint chummers might as well get full muscle replacements to up their strength AND agility, because it ends up being cheaper at only 25k per attribute point.

Jack Dockworker can get full cybernetic replacements to become stronger (by one attribute point) for 105k (80k for limbs, 25k for STR+1 customization), or he could just get muscle replacements R1 for 25k. Wait, what?

Personal opinion (and I'm obviously biased, if that wasn't abundantly clear by now); cyberlimbs got royally screwed in the new rules, and doesn't follow the spirit (or intention) of the setting at all.

[Noble Drake]

if that is indeed the case from a design standpoint, cyberlimbs just became a horribly inefficient way of upping your strength...

Cyberlimbs have never been an efficient way of upping your strength in any edition of Shadowrun - that's what muscle replacement (and then later muscle augmentation) has always been for.

which I think is a shame because cyberlimbs, along with cyber eyes, are such a staple of the setting to me.

I agree for sure that cyberlimbs are a staple of the setting (heck, the whole genre if you ask me)... but they are usually only a single limb or a pair of limbs that, while they have terrifying capabilities when used exclusively (like effortlessly crushing bone in a cyberarm's grip), don't significantly change the user's overall capabilities.

[Xenon]

...difference in our views is that I see a cybertorso and a skull as a shell rather than a limb, and that these won't be involved, and this next bit is the important part, from a game mechanics standpoint. You believe that they will.

You, me and the book all agree that torso and skull are shells rather than limbs.
Me and the book -but not you- agree that torso and skull are Cyberlimbs.

There is a difference between a shell and a limb
There is a difference between a limb and a Cyberlimb.

Skull and Torso are not limbs.
Skull and Torso are Cyberlimbs.


I believe that Torso and Skull are Cyberlimbs because the book say so.
Torso and Skull are included in both the Cyberlimb category and the Cyberlimb table.

Cyberlimbs (SR5 p.455)
Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category

Cyberlimbs table (SR5 p.457)
Obvious limbs
...
  Torso
  Skull

Synthetic limbs
...
  Torso
  Skull




You never told us WHY you think they included Torso and Skull in the Cyberlimbs category if they did NOT intend that they use Cyberlimbs rules.

...cyberlimbs just became a horribly inefficient way of upping your strength, which I think is a shame because cyberlimbs, along with cyber eyes, are such a staple of the setting to me.

Just because you think cyberlimbs are horrible inefficient does not change the fact skull and torso are Cyberlimbs (not limbs, Cyberlimbs)

Generally speaking you don't really use the strength or agility values of your skull and torso. So generally speaking you would probably not enhance  them with strength and agility values (but armor is very viable). Only exceptions I can think of would be when you head butt someone (strength of your head), lifting something (strength of your torso) or some highly acrobatic gymnastics (agility of your torso). Maybe using escape artist to bend and twist your body to fit in a very small space (agility of both head and torso).

Personally I think a cyberarm on a physically weak character that does not mind augmentations (for example a decker) is a very efficient way of augmenting (maybe even too strong). With a minimal investment in agility you he can still get a single super arm that let him fire a heavy pistol with 9 agility and the limit from accuracy of the weapon rather than his [rather low] physical limit.

You can also add two obvious feet enhanced with a total of +6 armor for less than 0.7 essence. Getting the same amount of armor from adept powers would require an investment of 3(!) power points.

Most street samurai would want decent base strength even if he got cyberlimbs since he would typically depend on his physical limit for a lot of his tests. Cyberlimbs in this case will still give him extra condition monitor boxes and the option to enhance them with armor. Would even go as far as saying that Cyberlimbs are the backbone when building a street samurai tank archetype.

[martinchaen]

Headbutts are not attacks that you can technically use, as it is not covered under the rules. Lifting is not described as using the torso (but is very likely up to GM discretion, as it would be either an average of arms, legs, and torso, weakest of previous, or average/weakest of just arms and legs). Gymnastics again would be the same as lifting (i.e. GM discretion).

I agree that a cyberarm for a decker is a great investment, perhaps a little too good. I further think that full cybernetic replacements are too expensive both in terms of nuyen and essence to be cost efficient, which is a shame.

All right, reviewing costs as I apparently forgot to carry the five...

For a human character:
Cost effectiveness of enhancing attributes from 1 to 3 with cyberlimbs (legs, arms, and torso) vs cyberware vs bioware (all standard grade):
Cyberlimbs start at attribute rating 3, whereas cyberware and bioware has to be purchased at R2.
80k and 5.5 essence vs 50k and 2 essence vs 126k and 0.8 essence

Enhancing from 1 to 6 is not possible with cyberware of bioware; advantage cyberlimbs
230k and 5.5 essence vs NA vs NA

Enhancing from 1 to 9 is not possible with cyberware of bioware; advantage cyberlimbs
815k and 5.5 essence vs NA vs NA

Now, this is where the equations gets interesting.
Cost effectiveness of enhancing attributes from 3 to 6 with cyberlimbs (legs, arms, and torso) vs cyberware vs bioware (all standard grade):
Cyberlimbs remain the same as previous R6 (you still have to buy the arms, and now add customizations), but cyberware and bioware only has to go one rating up to +3
230k and 5.5 essence vs 75k and 3 essence vs 189k and 1.2 essence

Cost effectiveness of enhancing attributes from 6 to 9 with cyberlimbs (legs, arms, and torso) vs cyberware vs bioware (all standard grade):
Cyberlimbs remain the same as previous R9 (you still have to buy the arms and the customizations, and now add enhancements), and cyberware and bioware is the same as previous as you still only need +3
815k and 5.5 essence vs 75k and 3 essence vs 189k and 1.2 essence

Once again, cyberlimbs are not cost effective at higher levels. Despite a (substantially) higher cost in terms of nuyen and essence, some of you are purporting that the rules as written means cyberlimbs:
A) Do not affect limits
B) Do not affect derived attributes such as lifting capacity, movement speed, etc except if a full suite of all five "limbs" is purchased
C) Do not affect tests where the entire body can be expected to be involved (Gymnastics, Running, Swimming, others?) except if a suite of all five "limbs" is purchased

Have I understood your point of view correctly?

[Xenon]

Headbutts are not attacks that you can technically use, as it is not covered under the rules.

Yes they are attacks you can use and yes they are covered under the rules.
(and even if they were not then I am sure any GM could could think up some rules on the fly).

Unarmed Combat (SR5 p.132)
Unarmed Combat covers the various self-defense and attack moves that employ the body as a primary weapon.

Cyberlimbs (SR5 p.456)
Cyberlimbs can be dangerous even if they don’t have cyberweapons installed— their unarmed Damage Value is (STR)P.

[martinchaen]

Wow... your ability to nitpick is second to none. I salute you.

Once again, I point you to the fact that the cyberlimbs category specifically excludes torsos and skulls from being actual limbs, hence you can't use them to attack with. Pray tell, what modifier would you use for attacking with a headbutt, or a body slam? Should you consider yourself at a disadvantage from using an off hand? Come on, dude, you're just arguing for arguments sake at this point. Nowhere in the melee combat rules is it stated that headbutts and bodyslams are acceptable methods of attack.

"Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements (or actual limbs)."
Not limbs.

"When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task."
Limb. Not skull, not torso. Limb.

Page 187:
"Apply this penalty to any attack made with the characters non-dominant hand."
Hand. Not foot, or feet, or torso, or skulls. By this logic, one could argue that you cannot make an attack (unarmed or otherwise) with anything but your hands. Unless, of course, you'll argue that since it doesn't specify feet, skulls, or torso, that you attack with your regular unarmed attack skill with no penalty, which I'm fairly certain you will.

[Chrona]

Play nice people or I'm locking this necrothread.

[All4BigGuns]

Play nice people or I'm locking this necrothread.

Might as well go ahead and do so.

[martinchaen]

Duly noted, Chrona. I'll note that I decided to post in this thread because Aaron (amongst others) had provided input on my original query.

I have no problem leaving the topic alone as of now, while awaiting clarification.

[Crunch]

martinchaen unfortunately this is (another) problem caused by the Cyberlimb rules rather than a problem with headbutts per se. The only time it actually addresses attacking with a specific part of the body, where leading with a cyberarm is specifically allowed.

Cyberarms break the abstraction of the unarmed combat system down without giving us any guidelines on whether, for instance, a cyberskull head butt is reasonable or not. It's almost entirely up to the GM to figure out what you can or can't do with your Agi 1(9) Cyberskull.

[Xenon]

If a body part can or can not be a cyberlimb have no bearing on what body parts you can or can not use for Unarmed Skill. There are plenty of characters that don't have cyberlimbs that still can use Unarmed Combat skill to attack targets by employing the body as a primary weapon.

Most [other] people would consider their head being part of their body.

Most [other] GMs would allow you to do a headbutt attack with Unarmed Skill + Agility [Physical] that deal (STR)S.

Some GMs would allow you to do a cyberskull headbutt attack with Unarmed Skill + Agility [Physical] that deal (STR)P.

Page 187:
"Apply this penalty to any attack made with the characters non-dominant hand."
Hand. Not foot, or feet, or torso, or skulls. By this logic, one could argue that you cannot make an attack (unarmed or otherwise) with anything but your hands. Unless, of course, you'll argue that since it doesn't specify feet, skulls, or torso, that you attack with your regular unarmed attack skill with no penalty, which I'm fairly certain you will.

The quote is from the Character Using Off-Hand Weapon (SR5, p.187)
And yes, you are not allowed to wield weapons with your skull or your feet. Only your left or your right hand. If you are right handed and wield a weapon with your left hand you will suffer -2 dice pool modifier to your weapon attack. Not sure what have to do with employing the body as a primary weapon with Unarmed Combat.

Your inability to read the rule book is second to none. I salute you [too].






You still have not told us WHY you think they included Torso and Skull in the Cyberlimbs category if they did NOT intend that they use Cyberlimbs rules.

[martinchaen]

Hands are not weapons?

[Chrona]

Might as well go ahead and do so.

I am forced to agree

Your inability to read the rule book is second to none. I salute you [too].

And so we lock this thread.
I imagine one will pop up to replace it very quickly.