[Mara]

I have run into an interesting dilemma. I have a group of PCs that started off as pre-gens for what was intended
to be a one-shot game. They were optimized for their roles in that game. We have a ex-Ganger Razorboy(twin cyberlegs
with spurs, one cyber arm with spurs, Move by wire, melee monster), Heavy Weapon Troll(Machine Gun Specialist, currently
rocks with a HV HMG), a TechnoShaman Technomancer(with AIPS, Sensitive Neural Structure, and Scorched), and the only change out: a Technomancer Sniper(Who will at some point be switching back to his original Shinobi Mystic Adept).

The problem I am running into is: the characters are darned good in combat. I have put even troops in mil-spec gear against them, and they just killed without breaking a sweat. I mean, the Heavy Weapon Troll took two bursts from an Assault Rifle firing AV Rounds, and just shrugged it off, then one shotted the shooter with a narroe burst of, of all things, Gel Rounds(fired
from the HV HMG). He stick n Shock one shotted a Force 8 Blood Spirit in another run. Now, on their current run, they were
out with just their pistols, and the tropp, tehcnomancer, and sniper, after the surprise round, one shotted all 5 gangers that
jumped them(I probably should have made it more gangers, mind you..but..)

I am running into a problem, and even the group kind of complains about this, that combat is not challenging for them. I really am at a loss for what to do without throwing CyberZombies in milspec armour, or, worse, Cyborgs in Otomo Drones in Milspec
body armour.

[Black]

Hi Mara,

No much advice, but try playing with the actual setting of the combat, eg on the roof of a fast moving train, in an airplane, etc.

Much the scenerary challenging, not so much the enemies.  Won't work always, but could add a bit of flavour and challenge to the combat.

Eg on the back of a fast moving bullet train.  balance test or holding on to the roof when anyone uses something with recoil or gets shot.  Through a tunnel into the combat and a few foes with magnetic grips and a specialisation in judo and wham, should make life interesting.

A combat on a commercial plane.  No weapons and any attack could cause a crash.

Battle in a oil refinery or somewhere 'explosive'  one wrong shot and boom!  its all over.

Anyway, its an idea.

[Crunch]

It's a difficult problem. Most of the options facing you are unsatisfying, but there are a few things you can do short of nuking them from orbit.

1) Do a timed running combat with an infinite supply of mooks. Basically you know that anything you throw against them is going to be shredded so try to run the Luke and Han escaping the death star scene. The point is not to kill the baddies, rather it's to get to point x in less than y minutes with mooks getting in the way etc. Play this fast and cinematic and it can be a lot of fun.

2) Have them hit instead of being the hitter. Take them off their stride, away from their gear etc. NB: You have to be very careful to keep this fair and fun, badly handled it can seem arbitrary and unfair.

3) Have them compete with another team of equally powerful runners for the same target. You can play this like the first option fun fast and cinematic. NB: Be careful because this can lead to monty haul type escalation or instagibs.

4) Play the big score for real. Lay it out for them. Impossible run with retire to the islands money at the end. Deal with a Dragon to infiltrate the Aztechnology pyramid for a multi million dollar score etc. Throw everything you can think at them, bleeding edge black ops, experimental cyberzombies, Top tier Combat mages. If they pull it off let them retire in glory. Make sure the players and the characters both understand what's going on going in. And then start over with a new group of runners in SR 5 (maybe voluntarily less optimized to give more room for challenge and growth) have the new runners here pieces of the big score as street legend and the kind of thing people whisper about in back rooms. Maybe have one of the survivors appear as a cameo npc (with the player's permission of course).

[AceFace]

A very simple thing you can do is put them in a situation where they just can't take all their biggest and best toys with them. Have them infiltrate a party where there's a decent scanner at the door, so only the smallest, most subtle weapons will get in. Have them stumble into an ambush in a nice neighbourhood, where they couldn't have been carrying their heavy ordinance for fear of being arrested. It's not the kind of move you can pull too often, as it can come across as a bit cheeky to deny them their precious toys, but it's perfectly reasonable to expect them to adapt to different situations sometimes.

Something else I'd point out - your group are missing spellcasters. Be a bit careful, but chuck a few decent spirits up against them and they might be surprised, especially if you learn the critter powers and use them well.

[Mara]

For those suggesting that I take them away from their gear...that is the plan for the next job(they are getting the first Dawn of the Artifacts mission when they get to New York...they are already using loaner gear from their employer on their current mission, so they won't have their gear at all when they get to Africa.)

As for the group not having mages..they do have a mage...and an "ex" red samurai...these are the newest members of
the team, though, and they are more balanced. The Mage did, however, one shot a Magic 8 Vampire Blood Mage Grade 2
Initiate...(Player never came up with a name for the mage, so everyone just started calling her Boomstick...since she
is as subtle as a shotgun)

[Michael Chandra]

If they're using SnS, why not use that in return? AV-rounds are not that impressive compared to Impact halved.

[farothel]

A troll might be able to shrug of AV rounds, but he goes down just like everybody else from a nice Force 9 stunbolt.  Or why do you think all player mages take that spell. 

[Mara]

If they're using SnS, why not use that in return? AV-rounds are not that impressive compared to Impact halved.

Non-conductive armor...all of them have it maxed..means that they have MORE soak against SnS then anything
else. And, the SnS is in the Trolls rarely used pistol. Capsule Rounds with Narcoject are in the Technoshaman's
Deputy. The Sniper's pistol is loaded with EX-EX...Most of the time, the Troll acts, and either uses Ivan(his Gonryu)
or Sasha(the HV HMG). If Ivan is used? Neurostun grenades...if Sasha is used, either APDS or Gelrounds are usually
used. He only had the SnS for fighting spirits...and they knew a spirit was going to be there thanks to Astral recon
by the Mage.

[Walks Through Walls]

I agree with all the suggestions already listed as things that will help. I really liked Black's idea of fighting on the back of a train will have to remember it for my own campaign since at times I seem to have the same problem. Here are a couple of observations, suggestions, and ideas that I have found to work.

You commented that they wiped out the gangers quick and brutal. A good team of runners should do that especially if they are combat focused. So that wouldn't worry me too much, but some of the other groups you mentioned should cause them at least to pause.

Here are some ideas and comments on what has already been mentioned.

1) Suppression fire. This won't necessarily help against the troll, but the others it will make them think at least about getting down. Multiple overlapping fields of suppression works really well. I've pinned down a whole runner team with one security guard for a whole combat turn (irony is he was the only guard not wiped out already by the team, but he had them in a panic)

2) Have the bad guys use cover. This not only helps them against bullets, but spells also.

3) Give the bad guys a professional rating (an edge pool for the group of mooks to share) or a higher one if you already are using it. Give the main villain his own edge too. Then use the extra dice when avoiding damage I tend to use it on the dodge roll.
3a) Have the bad guys go to full defense. With good stats this can make it even up dice wise to keep from getting hit. If used with the professional rating can give the staying power you are looking for. Also ironically often after a couple people miss the person who has dropped his action on full defense he will become the target for everyone since they think he must be the big baddy.

4) It has already been mentioned but is worth repeating. Ambush the party. Without their armor is particularly effective, but even in full gear it can be nasty. My favorite trick is have the slow rigger or not as combat oriented enemy be their sniper and he "starts" combat with his attack (after an action or two of aiming) so he hits then the rest of the NPCs break their delayed actions to hit in rapid succession. As was already mentioned also you need to be careful that it doesn't look like you are just gunning to take out the characters.

5) have the enemies use invisibility and chameleon suits.  Not even all of them, but just one can be very effective. My runners just finally got the best of a knife throwing troll physical adept with a chameleon suit. They ran into him in the first adventure over two years ago (we run once a month) and have again from time to time and wiped out the rest of his group, but he has managed to escape several times.

6) I prefer APDS to SnS if you are looking for punch, but things that target impact like thrown knives by an experienced adept with a high strength or bow with a high strength can have a surprising hitting power.

I hope all of this helps.

[Walks Through Walls]

Reading your post while I was typing made me think of a couple other things that might help.

The narcojet would have been ineffective against the milspec armor if you give it chemseal. For the SnS preference of the group give the NPCs non-conductivity on their armor also. This would make particular sense if the NPCs know who they are going up against.

Another rule I have is I will use against the group anything they use against the NPCs so start have the bad guys in chemsealed armor tossing neurostun (or nastier chemicals) grenades at the group. Also smoke grenades work well to give visibility modifiers to help the bad guys live longer.

Again I hope this helps.

[Mara]

Yes, my group has SnS...they also have APDS, Ex-Ex, KE IV, Narcoject, etc rounds. Remember, as I pointed out, the
Troll oneshotted a Prime Runner Build Red Samurai, in full armor, with GEL rounds... And this was even WITH using
Edge to re-roll failures.

Oh..as for Ambush...yeah: TacNet + High Perception skills...Every attempt to ambush had been detected. Heck,
the gangers that hit them ambushed them...and they got a critical glitch, and 2 hits. One hit was mostly soaked,
the other..the PC took 5 net damage...note that I expected the fight to be quick...but, I was surprised at how
effective they were with just their pistols, the weapons that only the Technoshaman has any professional grade
skill in.

I am hoping that having to get stuff in Lagos will...make things into an interesting challenge for them. But, I am not
sure if the Dawn of the Artifacts 1 will even be enough of a challenge for them in the ghoul fight...

[Crunch]

Try watching some goofy 80s action movies. They can be a good source for techniques to use to create tension even when the baddies aren't individually challenging.

[Mara]

I will admit..I like the idea of them doing a run where they end up coming across ANOTHER group of runners, at their own level...and see how they deal with it. they are getting enough of a rep they should be getting some high profile runs
against competing teams...

Maybe have them do an extraction run....where Corpsec are tasked with keeping the person from leaving....even if
it kills the target of the extraction..I haven't had them do an extraction yet.

[farothel]

If they are maxed out for combat, there's two things you can do.
1) Drop them in a mercenary environment.  If they want to shoot everything, put them in the Yucatan, or Bogota.  Soon they will start attracting the attention of tanks.
2) Have them do a political run.  That way you don't have to make combat more challenging, because there will not be any.

And always have normal repercussions for any actions.  If they shoot up an entire factory, that corp will react.  And no Mr. J is going to hire them if they managed to get their faces all over the news with a high bodycount.  Except the ones looking for people to go to Lagos or Bogota (or Chicago).  Then go to point 1 above.

[I_V_Saur]

Use backstabbing Johnsons. Give them a tough run, where they get ambushed, and then the Johnson won't pay them - doesn't even show. Just another ambush. Then they have to hunt him down, and he's trying to flee the country. If they cut their losses, they're still dealing with the label 'terrorist', and a lot of airtime. If they skip town, they don't have as many contacts, the area is unfamiliar, and every local criminal group is going to be pushing them around. Even if they only take one or two damage every encounter, if you don't let them heal for several combats, they'll be feeling the hurt.

Even if you aren't kicking them out of town, there are options. Paracritters can be horribly nasty, for example. Just watch them try to soak a Sea Wolf nomming on the Troll's face - or his weapon. If you send them hunting, expect them to have to lick their wounds. Never send just one paracritter, never forget their abilities, and they should be sweating pretty heavily.

Drones can be terrifying. You can send in dozens, for pretty cheap, it's expected that you can coordinate them, since generally a single Rigger is commanding a small army, maybe with two or three buddies to back him up, and that means that on each of the Rigger's IPs, they're sending about ten  or twenty shots at the party, from whatever angle you please - up above, sliding on that overhead rail, or below, sliding out from a bunch of crates. Use a bunch of Micros, which are absurdly cheap, and harder to hit - a dozen Cyberspace Designs Dragonflies set up to kamikaze will lead to a brown pants moment. Or, you know, just send in a few attack choppers, where you DO have to kill the chopper, not just the pilot, since the pilot is a few hundred miles away, and sitting behind five or so IC.

Explosives are fun.

Shedim. Shedim can do some real damage.

Ares is always playing with Bug Spirits. An outbreak in a secure lab is a good time to call in a Runner team, to see if anything can be salvaged before they nuke it.

Snipers. Not just one or two within five hundred feet, more a team of twenty scattered over ten or twenty miles, hidden by every means possible, guarded by several troublesome measures like Drones and mooks in closets, and explosives. If they're a real threat, and someone wants them gone, but can't do it with a single ambush, they'll call in measures like this.Snipers have some nasty ranges - exploit them, have snipers moving from their spot after shooting, have them use smoke and mirrors, comm calls and fake drops, to confuse, disorient, and delay the party, while they fire again, and again, and again. Have them take shifts, so that every twenty shots or so, they have full edge again.