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Tonatiuh

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« on: <01-15-12/2115:49> »
So, I'm going to be a playtester... Any ideas on how to make D&D a bit more like Shadowrun in that it's non-linear? I'm not sure, but I like that thought. But it might destroy D&D as we know it... :o
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CanRay

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« Reply #1 on: <01-15-12/2148:43> »
Well, rules for Cybernetics would be a suggestion.

As it's Fantasy, magically-empowered ones would be a good start.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #2 on: <01-15-12/2234:06> »
NO! The magepunk thing was crap in Eberron, and I wish the setting would die in a fire!

On the other hand, if you want to make D&D a classless system, like you see in Shadowrun, just take the setting, slap on the Hero System, GURPS, M&M, BESM, or what have you rules. Plenty of classless systems out there.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #3 on: <01-15-12/2240:12> »
NO! The magepunk thing was crap in Eberron, and I wish the setting would die in a fire!

On the other hand, if you want to make D&D a classless system, like you see in Shadowrun, just take the setting, slap on the Hero System, GURPS, M&M, BESM, or what have you rules. Plenty of classless systems out there.

Hey, Eberron was my favorite setting (at least until D&D 4E fragged it up like it did everything else.)
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Mirikon

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« Reply #4 on: <01-15-12/2256:05> »
Bah! I hear 'fantasy', I think high fantasy, not "Hey, wouldn't steampunk be cooler if we just changed 'steam' to 'bound elementals'?
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MisterJohnson

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« Reply #5 on: <01-16-12/0503:48> »
Side note...  I signed up to Beta-Test it too.   *fingers crossed*
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #6 on: <01-16-12/0805:20> »
More basic stuff.

Like "varying degrees of success" rather than binary pass/fail tests.



-k

Tonatiuh

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« Reply #7 on: <01-16-12/0842:06> »
More basic stuff.

Like "varying degrees of success" rather than binary pass/fail tests.



-k

That'd be cool. Their are very minimal amounts of that in 3.5, but it doesn't exist in 4.
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Malex

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« Reply #8 on: <01-19-12/2050:48> »
NO! The magepunk thing was crap in Eberron, and I wish the setting would die in a fire!

On the other hand, if you want to make D&D a classless system, like you see in Shadowrun, just take the setting, slap on the Hero System, GURPS, M&M, BESM, or what have you rules. Plenty of classless systems out there.

Oh HERO system, how awesome and yet frustrating you are.
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Kylen

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« Reply #9 on: <01-20-12/0452:03> »
NO! The magepunk thing was crap in Eberron, and I wish the setting would die in a fire!

On the other hand, if you want to make D&D a classless system, like you see in Shadowrun, just take the setting, slap on the Hero System, GURPS, M&M, BESM, or what have you rules. Plenty of classless systems out there.

Mik. I love you man, but this hurt. Eberron was SO much better then that other one, or even Greyhawk.

My personal opinion on '5e'? Drop it. Pathfinder is already so much better then D&D.

And I'll be honest. Some games NEED classes. I have not been in an enjoyable medieval fantasy game yet that was run in any of those systems. You think power gaming is bad in D&D as it is? It's HORRENDIOUS when there's no limitation to what you can do outside of how many points you can spend. I don't even see badly built SR characters as bad as some classless Fantasy characters.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #10 on: <01-20-12/0657:04> »
Well, as I said, when I think 'fantasy' I go straight to settings like Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms. In other words, High fantasy. Not 'I like steampunk and all, but instead of gears and steam, can we just put bound elementals everywhere?' To further illustrate my point, every Final Fantasy game after FFV is dead to me, since they moved away from high fantasy, and into magepunk. Hell, they started FFVI off with people in fragging MECHAS!

As far as classless fantasy games, I've played fantasy games in M&M 2nd before, and it worked out well. It is especially good for those concepts that don't fit easily into a single role, such as an ice mage who is good with a blade. And Hero System has special rules for fantasy characters (mainly changing point totals and limits), and I believe GURPS does as well. But in each system there are limits to how much you can do, besides the number of points you get.
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Tonatiuh

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« Reply #11 on: <01-20-12/0825:34> »
To further illustrate my point, every Final Fantasy game after FFV is dead to me, since they moved away from high fantasy, and into magepunk. Hell, they started FFVI off with people in fragging MECHAS!

Hey now, I love Final Fantasy, and I don't think it's wrong for a game to change its feel, or for a game to be magepunk. I mean, after all, what really is Shadowrun anyway? Not high fantasy, that's certain.

But anyway, I do agree with you in that it is Dungeons & Dragons, not Mechs and Monsters, or something other comparable alliterative title referencing the magepunk nature of Eberron. :P

Over all, I can't wait for playtesting to begin, and I already have ideas where you could range from nearly classless, like Shadowrun, to uber-classed and tiered like 4e, depending on your style of campaign, or even your individual character. It might make it a little too easy to Mary Sue, and it could be hard to keep track of, but I have months to iron it out and make it public, so people can help me make it better.

Basically, it would involve a point-buy system, like Shadowrun, and your points would be portioned off for ability points, skills, feats, "level adjustments", and "features", what would have been class features. You would have available to you "class packages", which would allow you to take what would have been a level in a class, and certain restrictions will come with that. If you don't take a class package, you could spend your feature points on saving throw progressions (might want to lock that as a one-time thing to prevent powergaming based on what kind of saving throw comes up most in your campaign), weapon and armor proficiencies, combat maneuvers, spells, bonus feats, and other class abilities. Sound feasible, or too complicated? I think DMs could restrict newer players to buying class packages at every level.

I wouldn't have it be a karma-based system or anything like that; I think XP should be kept, and levels should be recorded, but you may, depending on your campaign, never hear "I'm a level 12 Paladin!" I think that this flexibility could be what everyone wants in D&D, but at the same time, be what no one wants, because it offers "too many" choices to PCs, makes the DM's job a bit harder, and would make the books significantly larger (and more expensive). But I do think this makes it customizable while keeping the D&D feel, which is the goal of this "edition", is it not?
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John Schmidt

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« Reply #12 on: <01-22-12/1105:29> »
My problem with class based systems is the supposition that a game designer knows what type of character I want to build.

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Tonatiuh

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« Reply #13 on: <01-22-12/1922:51> »
Open Playtesting thought..."My biggest fear of this project is that WOTC will fire me as a fan three days before Christmas..." Mike Mulvihill

Yeah, I hope they actually listen to everyone, not just the people who play the most, or have the longest history, or bug them constantly, or pay them...
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Xzylvador

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« Reply #14 on: <01-25-12/0557:14> »
Imo, the class based system shouldn't be removed from Dnd.
To me, saying "I have a level 10 Cleric of Olidamara with 5 levels of rogue" IS part of DnD.

Sure, there's a lot of things that can be fixed and improved, but DnD as a classless game system just wouldn't be DnD imo. Some of the prestigeclasses in 3.5 got it right imo and combined flavorful multiclassing with a good balance of cost (loss of power compared to single class) vs. versatility (new capabilities gained from the second class). Unfortunately they were the exception. Multiclassing in 4th just sucked.