[CanRay]

Well, to be fair, how many people have fired a pistol more than six times?  It's Shadowrun, not "Kill every motherslotter in the room for XP".  If you need moar dakka, there's always Machine Pistols, SMGs, and Assault Rifles.

The only reason to swap out mags (*Sighs*  CLIPS!) in a pistol is to use special munitions.

There's also the fact that the Ruger Superwarhawk is able to be used to hunt CARS.  That's why my Elven Wheelman, Nas, carries his (That, and he's Ork-Sized, so any other pistol looks like a Walther PPK in his massive mitt.).  He uses Machine Pistols for lesser threats.  He's not really a good shot with either, to be honest.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

"Great.  Now I can flatten light ammo against body armor faster than ever before."

Honestly, while over the four 'runs I was in at DragonCon I shot only ... two rounds (AV vs. armored window) and one (Gamma-Scop against that technomancer), unless your character is a serious hard-ass and has seen a lot of combat, realistically they're going to be shooting back -- a lot.  Even if they hit, they won't know/realize it right away, and squeeze off another three or four rounds, just because it takes a moment for a body to slump to the floor.  Plus, accuracy (even with a 6 in whatever, smartlink, etc. etc.) is going to suck, because of sheer 'they're trying to KILL me!!!' twitchiness.  The targets (read: security / gangers) are going to take cover and shoot back, not stand in the open like Imperial Stormtroopers.

Unless the character has that whole SpecForces / Merc / High-level bodyguard background (because high-end bodyguards are trained in live-fire or near-live-fire conditions to react properly, i.e. get their principal the hell out of Dodge City) / Agent background, they should probably be wasting at least a clip of ammo per fire-fight.  Panic fire, inaccuracy, 'make sure he stays down' ...

Hm.  You know, I just thought of a way for that rule to play out.  Starting firearm combat dice pools -- because hand-to-hand is different -- would be something like 1/3 to 1/2 their trained size, due to an unfamiliarity with actual combat.  Not sure how to define exactly what that should be, but I'd adjust it to the character background anyhow.  For each combat full-Turn-or-longer combat the character is in, 1 die is returned to the skill pool, until they're at full -- at which point their combat experience is at the same level as their combat training.

[rasmusnicolaj]

Fine and realistic idea but maybe a little to complicated to enforce.
Especially the 1/3 or 1/2 because that punish you more the better you are.

A guy with 6 dice pool and 1/2 would have a pool of 3 and be on full after 3 firefights.
The other guy with 20 dicepool would have a pool of 10 and be at full after 10 firefights.
That really isn't fair. A flat penalty of example -4 to the first real firefight and then -2 for the next couple of fights before eliminating the penalty.

It doesn't take into account the background story of the individual characters - som could be soldiers and shouldn't be penalized but then you only encourage all your players to make ex-military types just to avoid the penalty.

Rasmus

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Fine and realistic idea but maybe a little to complicated to enforce.
Especially the 1/3 or 1/2 because that punish you more the better you are.

A guy with 6 dice pool and 1/2 would have a pool of 3 and be on full after 3 firefights.
The other guy with 20 dicepool would have a pool of 10 and be at full after 10 firefights.
That really isn't fair. A flat penalty of example -4 to the first real firefight and then -2 for the next couple of fights before eliminating the penalty.

Punishes you more?  Yes, sort of.  It's the difference, however, between getting it in the 10 ring 99 times out of a hundred in cool, emotionless, no-stress target practice, and getting 99 hits out of 100 in panicked, adrenaline-surging, going-to-die combat.  Yet the 20-down-to-10 starts off far better than the poor 6 bastard will ever be; the higher your skill, the higher your baseline, but I do take your point.  I might move from -1/2 to, after 2 fights, -1/3, after 3 more fights -1/4, and after 4 more give the whole pool.

Complicated, though?  That's casual book-keeping.  You keep track of karma, don't you?

It doesn't take into account the background story of the individual characters - som could be soldiers and shouldn't be penalized but then you only encourage all your players to make ex-military types just to avoid the penalty.

I'm sorry?!?

Hm.  You know, I just thought of a way for that rule to play out.  Starting firearm combat dice pools -- because hand-to-hand is different -- would be something like 1/3 to 1/2 their trained size, due to an unfamiliarity with actual combat.  Not sure how to define exactly what that should be, but I'd adjust it to the character background anyhow.  For each combat full-Turn-or-longer combat the character is in, 1 die is returned to the skill pool, until they're at full -- at which point their combat experience is at the same level as their combat training.

It most certainly IS in there!!

I will say that I forgot to mention gangers who have had that combat experience on the streets; a trained-but-unblooded soldier (Agility 3, Firearms 3) is going to have less initial success against a less-trained but blooded (Agility 3, Firearms 2) ganger, just because the ganger has a better grip on their fear.

[kirk]

Variant idea, and one I use a fair amount.  The players don't get to know the damage track of the bad guys. Did he drop behind cover because he's unconscious/dead, or because he's seeking shelter?

If they're experienced shooters I may give obvious clues. "He drops bonelessly behind the crate." "With half his head missing, he drops behind the wall."

In fairness, my bad guys shoot extra shots as well.

[tzizimine]

Examining the health of the opposition in combat is always something that I see as difficult in my game. The players usually only have the option of a Perception test, limited by their knowledge of First Aid +1.


1 hit: If they are injured or not
2 hits: Which is higher, the Stun or Physical Tracks
3 hits: What their current wound penalty is (which can be thrown off by damage compensators)
4 hits: What their current Physical Track is
5 hits: What their current Stun Track is


However, Assensing provides a better option, but only for living targets.


1 hit: If they are injured and if so, which is higher, Stun or Physical
2 hits: What their current Physical Track is
3 hits: What their current Stun Track is


Likewise, having a drone/vehicle run a self-diagnostic (which requires access) provides an exact readout.

[Zilfer]

If i remember right... bad guys only have 1 track of health,

<.<

[CanRay]

Depends on the "bad guy".

[Zilfer]

Depends on the "bad guy".

I figure the only 'bad guys' that i'll give multiple tracks are actually shadowrunner teams against shadowrunners. Maybe some key NPC's.

*Shrugs*

Think the players should have the advantage. xD

[Mirikon]

No. Just no. This isn't D&D, where you're expected to be utterly badass. In Shadowrun, you do just enough to get the hell out of there. There should ALWAYS be bigger fish out there, and not far off. Players should always be running against the odds. There's a reason why, as DangerSensei says in that story in the SR4A book, one in ten runners actually manages to live through their first year.

[Zilfer]

No. Just no. This isn't D&D, where you're expected to be utterly badass. In Shadowrun, you do just enough to get the hell out of there. There should ALWAYS be bigger fish out there, and not far off. Players should always be running against the odds. There's a reason why, as DangerSensei says in that story in the SR4A book, one in ten runners actually manages to live through their first year.

You seem to be miss interperting what I mean.

Lonestar or someone else vs a shadowrunner the shadowrunner should come out on top. Looking at the stats in the book this is easily so.

I'm not saying the shadowrunner's going to have an easy time and blow through everyone, all the time. I mean just like in DnD being out numbered can have quite an affect, and most of the time in shadowrun your outnumbered quite a bit.

<.< Also, when has DnD always been expected to be badass all the time? I can tell you it's rare and far inbetween that there are badass moments in the DnD I've played. The only time that comes to mind right now is when I was defending Shadowbane Lookout. (our home base) from a wizard floating in the air with an army of goblins, orcs, and a few orges. Had just bought some experimental arrows. I dubbed them Explosive Arrows, even though it was more like mini fireball arrows. Anyways my shortbow compostie served me well in shooting I think it was 270 feet out and nailed him flat in the face. >.> too  bad he regained conciousness and floated the last 10 feet or so, I didn't have time to watch was busy having my tower assaulted, but that bastard Ilthorn had a blast of his life that day, after he roasted 4 of our PC's. Deserved it.

Anyways not many types of those moments.

[Mirikon]

I was talking more about how you go in, slaughter everything in your path, take their stuff, and get songs sung about your deeds.

[Zilfer]

I was talking more about how you go in, slaughter everything in your path, take their stuff, and get songs sung about your deeds.

>.> Most of their stuff get's left behind, we do loot the magical items but leaving them there just wouldn't do becuase some other menace would come by and get a free powerful weapon/item and then they'd start masacuring nearby village again. Haven't had any song's sung about my deeds yet. XD Also, you don't slaughter most everything in your path in shadowrun? I mean if someone's in your way your going to take them down no? Regradless of how you do how my paladin would do it, or you use lethal force.

(Paladin of Kelemvor, God of Death doesn't beleive in killing unless it's your actual time to die.... <.< necromancers however he'd destroy them any day of the weak. xD)

[CanRay]

I was talking more about how you go in, slaughter everything in your path, take their stuff, and get songs sung about your deeds.

The last part is easiest, you just buy drinks for the bar.

I didn't say the songs were any good. 

[Mirikon]

Like I said before, in Shadowrun the goal shouldn't be 'kill everything' but 'GTFO of Dodge'. You do enough to accomplish the mission and get out. Tactics become very important. Tossing flashbangs into a room before you breach in order to soften up the guards, spraying bullets to keep people's heads down while you escape, killing the lights, sealing doors behind you, diving off the cliff to the boat waiting below, and so on. But my inspiration for shadowrun comes primarily from sources such as James Bond, Johnny Mnemonic, Hackers, Ghost in the Shell, and the like. In other words, most of the time stealth, planning, and guerilla tactics are more important than blowing the hell out of things.