Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Tonatiuh on <10-18-11/1008:57>
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What is it? I'm not looking for stealth; I'm simply looking for the biggest, baddest gun you can shoot with one hand. I'm looking to shoot this baby from the back of a speeding motorcycle.
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Ares Predator IV
(http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/heinlein/461/Ares_Predator.jpg)
If Dirty Harry were a street sam, he'd be packing this puppy.
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Sweet. Thanks.
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Ruger Thunderbolt! Burst firing ares predator basically.
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What's the advantage of burst fire? I've never had luck with it...
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There's a "short list" of good guns, depending what you want.
Morissey Elan: gets past MAD, very concealable
Yamaha Sakura Fubuki: Light Pistol and can do fully compensated narrow/narrow, no mods needed. If you just care about Stick-and-Shock, best gun.
Ruger Thunderbolt: Heavy Pistol, you have to mod it, but it is the only heavy pistol that can hit 5 recoil compensation (enough for two bursts with no penalty) without the user having inherent RC. Better than the YSF for non-SNS.
Ares Viper Slivergun: narrow niche - if you have inherent recoil compensation (such as from a cyberarm gyromount or very high strength), you can get 5 RC on it. It can only fire slivers, but unlike the other burst-firing pistols, it can fire wide as well as narrow. It's strictly worse than the Ruger in every situation but wanting to do wide bursts.
Ruger Super Warhawk: niche use of destroying vehicles, since it has high base damage and Armor Piercing. You can mod it to have burst-fire, but you need a whole lot of inherent RC to actually use the burst-fire, and it doesn't hold enough ammo for it to be really useful.
There's a few other guns with super-niche uses, like the PSK-3 collapsible pistol, the Lightfire's super-silencer, and tasers (the main reason to use tasers over SnS is that tasers are legal, not restricted).
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a real, passionate gunslinger has them all!
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All depends on what you're hunting. Also depends on how often you need to replace it...
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The best pistol is whatever you've got in your hand right now.
-k
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*Looks at what I have in my hand* That's not a pistol.
...
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It's not a gun either, get your heads out of the gutter. It's my computer's mouse!
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Ares Predator IV
(http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/heinlein/461/Ares_Predator.jpg)
If Dirty Harry were a street sam, he'd be packing this puppy.
Seriously, I've yet to run across a good reason for any character I build to not have an Ares Predator IV. They're cheap, they already have a smartgun system, and it does good, heavy pistol damage. The only Pistol with higher damage is the Ruger Super Warhawk, right? And you'd have to pay to have that one modded for Smartgun use.
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The fact that so many security guards have had Predators pulled on them for over 20-years that they're starting to get immune to the intimidation value of them?
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The fact that so many security guards have had Predators pulled on them for over 20-years that they're starting to get immune to the intimidation value of them?
The Predator has a built-in feature for dealing with that problem - the trigger. :)
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Ruger Thunderbolt: Heavy Pistol, you have to mod it, but it is the only heavy pistol that can hit 5 recoil compensation (enough for two bursts with no penalty) without the user having inherent RC. Better than the YSF for non-SNS.
Ares Viper Slivergun: narrow niche - if you have inherent recoil compensation (such as from a cyberarm gyromount or very high strength), you can get 5 RC on it. It can only fire slivers, but unlike the other burst-firing pistols, it can fire wide as well as narrow. It's strictly worse than the Ruger in every situation but wanting to do wide bursts.
Am I missing something, or are you modding these for Full-Auto? Why 5 points of RC?
Burst-fire weapons receive a –2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired in that Action Phase and –3 for the second.
I don't see where those modifiers are cumulative, since each modifier is called out as a modifier for a particular burst (see also the table on the same page).
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The fact that so many security guards have had Predators pulled on them for over 20-years that they're starting to get immune to the intimidation value of them?
The Predator has a built-in feature for dealing with that problem - the trigger. :)
+1 for making me snort in laughter at work.
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I don't see where those modifiers are cumulative, since each modifier is called out as a modifier for a particular burst (see also the table on the same page).
They are cumulative within the same pass.
Snowblood is firing a submachine gun in burst fire mode (3 bullets per burst), with 3 points of recoil compensation. With her first Simple Action, she fires one short burst (-2 recoil modifier), but she has 3 points of recoil compensation, so the recoil modifier does not apply to her first roll.
On her second Simple Action, Snowblood fires a second short burst (-3 recoil modifier), which is cumulative with the recoil modifier from her first burst in the Action Phase, for a total recoil modifier of -5. With 3 points of recoil compensation, Snowblood suffers a -2 dice pool modifier due to recoil on her second roll.
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Ah, here it is:
Kai-lin switches his Praetor to burst fire...His first shot is Automatics 4 + Agility 7 modified by +2 smartlink, –2 recoil, +2 recoil compensation for a dice pool of 13. ... Kai-lin’s second burst is Automatics 4 + Agility 7 plus modifiers (+2 smartlink, –5 recoil, +2 recoil compensation) for a dice pool of 10.
I trust the FAQ about as far as I can throw a troll, and I refuse to use it myself as a reference. Call me an old-school academic... :) But there's finally a printed reference.
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But there's finally a printed reference.
Whats wrong with the corebook?
Slinger has an Uzi in hand, ready to fire a burst against the hit man that just took
out his friend. Slinger is rolling his Automatics 4 + Agility 5 (9 dice) against the
target’s Reaction 5. Though his recoil compensation of 2 accounts for the burst’s –2
recoil, he’s also facing some other modifiers (–3 total, for a dice pool of 6). Slinger
goes for a narrow burst, increasing the Uzi’s DV by +2. He rolls 3 hits, the target
rolls 2, so he hits. His net hit of 1 increases the DV of the Uzi from 5P to 6P, which
unfortunately doesn’t exceed the assassin’s armor rating of 6. That means the target
has to resist 8S DV (base DV 5 + 1 net hit + 2 narrow burst, Physical converted
to Stun by the armor).
With his next Simple Action, Slinger’s facing a lot of recoil, so he goes for a wide
burst. The extra –3 recoil reduces his dice pool to 3, so he only gets 1 hit. The
target’s dice pool suffers a –2 modifier from the wide burst and a further –1 from
defending against an attack since his last action. He rolls only 2 dice but gets 1 hit.
That’s a tie, so Slinger just misses hitting the guy with the second burst.
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Thanks for pointing that out...that's what I was missing.
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This is my first character I will actually go through with, develop 100% by myself, and play a whole storyline out with... Y'all just lost me. :P
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This is my first character I will actually go through with, develop 100% by myself, and play a whole storyline out with... Y'all just lost me. :P
Disregard thread, acquire Ares Predator IV ;)
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The fact that so many security guards have had Predators pulled on them for over 20-years that they're starting to get immune to the intimidation value of them?
The Predator has a built-in feature for dealing with that problem - the trigger. :)
+1 as well, I'll give you that one.
Although things do get loud when Mr. Predator IV starts talking in class. ;)
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The fact that so many security guards have had Predators pulled on them for over 20-years that they're starting to get immune to the intimidation value of them?
The Predator has a built-in feature for dealing with that problem - the trigger. :)
+1 as well, I'll give you that one.
Although things do get loud when Mr. Predator IV starts talking in class. ;)
That's when the Slivergun whispers in the back of the class that Mr. Predator IV called Ruger Hawk fat.
:P
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And then the Colt Manhunter starts talking smack and about his proud grandpappy, the M1911, and then it gets really loud! ;D
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Meanwhile, Troll Spellslinger. End of story. :P
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And then the Colt Manhunter starts talking smack and about his proud grandpappy, the M1911, and then it gets really loud! ;D
That's when the Teacher finally goes off.
Mrs. Panther doesn't like when the class is getting disruptive.... and all the troll's in the class room start to fantasize about their teacher.... :P
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Everyone's hot for teacher. ;D (http://youtu.be/g0XLKcMoXRE)
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Colt manhunter more bullets more fun same damage.
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Colt manhunter more bullets more fun same damage.
And no Smartgun link to hack. :P
Advantages and disadvantages. But as someone already posted, the weapon in your hand is the best weapon in the world. It beats being unarmed.
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You know, if you're going for something to grip in one hand and hammer out gunfire while you're piloting your motorcycle, you might consider any number of SMGs instead. HK 227-X is a classic look in that case...
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The fact that so many security guards have had Predators pulled on them for over 20-years that they're starting to get immune to the intimidation value of them?
The Predator has a built-in feature for dealing with that problem - the trigger. :)
+1 for making me snort in laughter at work.
Another +1 for same, but also with coffee involved.
For sheer punch, I usually suggest anything that begins with "Predator" in front of it. Although, other very good choices would be the Colt Manhunter and the Browning Ultra-Power. They may not have smartlink, but for those who many not have the necessary 'ware, both are what I call "good right out of the box" weapons. Government 2066 looks interesting, but I've never used it in game and not sure how I feel about electronic triggers yet. Call me a purist.
Also, on a side note, if you are playing a gunslinger/quickdraw type, I would recommend the Ultra-Power. Yeah, ammo is low but if you are gonna need to draw something quick, and in a world where fractions of a second count, getting it cleared from your holster because you dont have to pull it so damn far can be that very slight but precious edge. I know there is nothing for this in RAW, but Im one who likes to put some style and thought into such things for my own amusement. My usual in-character pistol carry is one Ultra for "quickdraw" and casual carry with a Predator for the normal on the job work.
Although, I am becoming partial to the Colt 1991 for those situations where something "low tech" may be needed.
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You know, if you're going for something to grip in one hand and hammer out gunfire while you're piloting your motorcycle, you might consider any number of SMGs instead. HK 227-X is a classic look in that case...
This.
Or, if you're a troll, you can use an assault rifle in one hand.
For non-trolls, the best you're going to do is either a supermach 100 from Arsenal, loaded with SnS, or the M-4A1 Carbine from Gun Heaven with its base 6P damage and 30 round clip.
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I wouldn't let a Great Dragon fire a high-velocity weapon with only one hand ...
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I wouldn't let a Great Dragon fire a high-velocity weapon with only one hand ...
I don't think dragons need permission to do anything ;)
But why not? Weapons mounted on drones don't suffer recoil penalties (that is maybe silly but that is RAW) so why shouldn't at being bigger and stronger than a fighter plane be able to fire a rifle with only one hand?
Regards
Rasmus
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Please note the poll. :P
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If you are looking for the biggest, baddest onehander, have you considered an SMG?
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Should I add that to the poll?
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Only if you want to. I agree with UmaroVI if you only mean Pistols. If you consider small automatics to be viable answers, then the list of correct answers widens. You still haven't answered what you mean by best though, there are different guns that are good at different things. If you plan to SnS spam you want an Ingram supermach 100 but if you plan to open vehicles you may want a different weapon. For concealability the Ares Executive Protector is very nice.
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I'm basically just looking for most damage, plain and simple. Of course a lot of ammo would be nice, but my priority is damage. Something that can shoot through a car, or two people at once, is a necessity. Not looking for concealability, stealth, or even a smart system necessarily, but it would have its advantages.
So, in order of priority, I need:
1) DAMAGE
2) MORE DAMAGE
3) ammo
4) maybe a smartlink system
This could be a pistol or a one-handed auto. I'm actually looking to put skill points in automatics rather than pistols, that way I can use a bigger automatic when not on my bike.
Just vote at this point, unless you have something crucial to say; I want everyone to see this post to know my criteria. PM me recommendations for poll edits.
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I'm not sure why you'd need a poll, the stats are right in the book for you to compare. Same as for your armor question earlier.
-k
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I just wasn't sure if there were guns in other books that I didn't have... But okay. Nevermind guys.
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Gun Books:
SR4A
Arsenal
WAR!
MilSpecTech
With 90% of the guns being in SR4A and Arsenal.
-k
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I only have the 20th Anniversary Core Rulebook. Is that the same thing as SR4A?
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Yah.
If you only can get one, probably you'd want Arsenal. And hey, DriveThruRPG is having a sale on the PDF. (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=57423&filters=0_0_0_1700)
The other books only have a handful of weapons.
-k
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From what you have in the poll, SMGs are probably going to be what you like since you're asking for damage.
If you're sticking with pistols, I'm a big fan of the burst firing pistols. More concealable and can unload a lot of lead quickly. Two that I use quite a bit are the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki and the Ceska Black Scorpion. And with the mods you can put in place thanks to Arsenal, there is a lot of versatility there.
And of course, as everyone else has mentioned, it really is hard to go wrong with the Predator IV. Cheap, effective, and powerful.
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Gun Books:
SR4A
Arsenal
WAR!
MilSpecTech
Plus Gun Heaven (or better Runners Black Book)
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So "best one-handed weapon for pure offense, not caring about concealability" and you want it to not just be for SnS spam. The answer to that actually depends on your character, because of how recoil compensation works, but it will be some variety of SMG.
What is your strength score?
Are you OK with being dependant on wearing a gyromount?
Do you have a cyberarm or cyberhand with a cyberarm gyromount?
Do you have foot anchors?
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SR4A is the Anniversary Core Rulebook. Since that's the only book you have, I'll just use it and it alone. Arsenal changes the choices due to more gun options and the ability to mod firearms. If you're okay with using Arsenal and other books's stuff, then Umaro's Archetypes (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4495.0) are a must read for anyone new to SR character building and have lots of guns premodded and stated for your use.
Does your group use Stick n Shock rounds? They change firearm evaluations since they replace base damage and AP. From what I can tell, you don't use SnS rounds so I'm going to ignore them.
SR favors BF and FA fire especially if you can reach the RC thresholds of 5 or 8. Therefore you should look at firearms that use BF or FA. Recoil Compensation (RC) is hard to find with the SR4A, but Gas Vent 3 + Shock Pad 1 gets you 4 and that's BF with only -1 die on the second shot. Getting a gyromount cyberlimb accessory puts you a 7 which is just short of 8 for FA fire. But that's an illegal cyberlimb accessory so you may or may not be able to use it.
There are a couple of burst firing pistols that aren't machine pistols. The only one in the main book is the Fubuki, but it's a wonder. A BFing Fubuki does 6P -0 AP versus a heavy pistol's 5P -1 AP base. Since +1 DV is better than -1 AP, the Fubuki is better than any random heavy pistol. Recoil is nearly nil with its built in folding stock which is quite handy. The Warhawk isn't useful since it's SS which means you can't fire twice in a pass (unless you mod or dual wield).
With just SR4A, machine pistols are less concealable Fubukis that have FA fire.
SMG have +1 DV over the Fubuki and the option for FA fire. The best is the HK227 due its oddly restricted but not forbidden sound suppressor. The Ingram Smartgun has a deeper clip, but you can't remove the Gas Vent 2 unless you use the mod rules so the HK227 wins out by being able to get +1 RC. If your GM knows how guns work, he might not let you use a sound suppressor and gas vent together, but that rule doesn't show up till Arsenal.
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I don't know how helpful foot anchors would be on a motorcycle...
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Good point, in this case foot anchors wouldn't help.
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Bolt a heavy duty gyroscope to the motorcycle.
AND NOW YOU HAVE A MOTORCYCLE THAT CAN'T MAKE TURNS! WHEE!
-k
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Colt Cobra is a nice one as well, and Bullpup, so easy to handle one-handed (Hopefully.). Comes in various flavors as well! ;D
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If you want a weapon to use while on a bike, have you considered mounting a turret and using a vehicle based weapon? It will use the gunnery skill, but is very deadly.
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I think it's also relevant to say for this topic, that as per Arsenal, firing a two handed weapon(rifle sized or larger) one handed is only a 2 dice penalty for your dicepool(and only -1 for Trolls).
So if you only care about damage i would recommend a sawed-off elephant rifle, sure it only has 2 shots, but the damage code is 9P AP -1 :o
If you need a little more ammo, shotguns are a pretty good option too,.
ArmTech MGL-6/12 grenade launcher is a pretty nasty option too.
The 2 smaller laser weapons are also a pretty nasty if expensive option(both in terms of nuyen and BP/karma, as they require their own skill to use), a reasonable GM might even let you hook them up to the bikes power system, giving you infinite ammo ;D
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If you only can get one, probably you'd want Arsenal. And hey, DriveThruRPG is having a sale on the PDF. (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=57423&filters=0_0_0_1700)
The other books only have a handful of weapons.
And the Oscar for Most Shameless Advertising Plug goes to ... ;)
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Eh. If I was really shilling for the site I'd tell folks to buy all the PDFs.
:)
-k
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He is just integrating the forum with real SR where AR commercials are everywhere ;)
Rasmus
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My gunslinger that sits on the back of a bike uses a modified super ruger warhawk with exex . 7 damage - 3 ap is about as good as you can get. I've got it modded to semi auto, and with nimble fingers and drums reloading is a free action. Two shots with it per pass.
With burst fire you're going to need 5 points of recoil comp, on my ruger i just don't have the mod slots what with it giveing me +2 to intimidation and having chameleon coating.
Upgrading to burst fire costs 4 weapon mod slots, but the best you're going to get is a personalised grip... which means your recoil will be 1/4
Doing the math. Semi auto is more reliable with the warhawk you have higher base damage and ap and its damn classy. When on a bike takign penalties for shooting cus you're on a bike semi auto is the way to go. However when you get off that bike the thunderhawk modified with personalised grip and underbarel weight loaded with exex is brutal.
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So... I'm just gonna say STOP THE PRESS! Lol...
I'll take what you all have said, ruminate for a few days, and release my final decision.
I've never had a thread that ended up this active... I guess it's easy to get folks hyped up about guns.... And opinions. :P
Thanks everyone!!
Old MacDonald had a farm. Ee-eye-ee-eye-oh. With a torrent here, and a torrent there....
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And we haven't even started in on Clips Vs. Magazines! ;D
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And we haven't even started in on Clips Vs. Magazines! ;D
Oh god.... xD
:P I'll stick with my Slivergun. xD
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STOP! PLEASE! :o
Lol seriously though, thanks a ton guys. I'll be poring over this forum and my book to see my best option.
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Colt manhunter more bullets more fun same damage.
And no Smartgun link to hack. :P
Advantages and disadvantages. But as someone already posted, the weapon in your hand is the best weapon in the world. It beats being unarmed.
A little off topic, bit my hand to hand adept wishes to disagree, given that sec forces are less likely to pull guns if you're unarmed. Granted, if the REST of your team isn't, well, youll have some issues, bit this ism't the place for that discussion.
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STOP! PLEASE! :o
Lol seriously though, thanks a ton guys. I'll be poring over this forum and my book to see my best option.
These are Shadowrun enthusiasts in a forum thread about guns.
They will likely continue waxing philosophic about firearms long after you stop reading this thread.
-k
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I think it's also relevant to say for this topic, that as per Arsenal, firing a two handed weapon(rifle sized or larger) one handed is only a 2 dice penalty for your dicepool(and only -1 for Trolls).
So, if you're hoping for full auto without using a gyro, there's basically no reason not to just use the Ares Alpha since none of the SMGs out there can do fully compensated FA fire which means you'll be losing dice anyway.
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So, if you're hoping for full auto without using a gyro, there's basically no reason not to just use the Ares Alpha since none of the SMGs out there can do fully compensated FA fire which means you'll be losing dice anyway.
The Praetor can actually pull it off. Gas Vent 3 + Electronic Firing 1 + Stock 1 + Innate 1 + Auto-Adjusting Underbarrel Weight Mod (which is a modification not an accessory) 2 gives you 8.
You might be able to pull the same trick with a M4A1 and have 8 RC in a restricted not forbidden package. You'll have to use customized grip and shocks pads instead of electronic firing and a stock. The big roadblock is that you'll have to ask your GM about how he feels about auto-adjusting underbarrel weights and vintage. It could be electronic or it could be mechanical. My bet is on it being electronic, but there might be a real life mechanical version of it or your GM might see it otherwise.
Also firing larger than SMG firearms one-handed is an optional rule. I can see a lot of GMs using it, but it's not something you can relay on in all games or use in Missions.
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Streetline Special.
You won't care when you have to dump it down a sewer grate. :P
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And we haven't even started in on Clips Vs. Magazines! ;D
*gets out rolled up newspaper*
NO! Bad Ray! Didn't you learn from the last, what three times?
:o
*looks up for roaming lightning-ban hammers*
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So, if you're hoping for full auto without using a gyro, there's basically no reason not to just use the Ares Alpha since none of the SMGs out there can do fully compensated FA fire which means you'll be losing dice anyway.
The Praetor can actually pull it off. Gas Vent 3 + Electronic Firing 1 + Stock 1 + Innate 1 + Auto-Adjusting Underbarrel Weight Mod (which is a modification not an accessory) 2 gives you 8.
You might be able to pull the same trick with a M4A1 and have 8 RC in a restricted not forbidden package. You'll have to use customized grip and shocks pads instead of electronic firing and a stock. The big roadblock is that you'll have to ask your GM about how he feels about auto-adjusting underbarrel weights and vintage. It could be electronic or it could be mechanical. My bet is on it being electronic, but there might be a real life mechanical version of it or your GM might see it otherwise.
Also firing larger than SMG firearms one-handed is an optional rule. I can see a lot of GMs using it, but it's not something you can relay on in all games or use in Missions.
8 RC on the Praetor E still means -1 on a FA burst without strength-assisted RC. Well, unless you're breaking up your bursts into short and long, which, honestly is the best way to do things. But still, the +1DV -1AP of an assault rifle is worth losing two dice in most cases.
So, I think that it's pretty much clear that the best pistol is an Ares Alpha.
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And we haven't even started in on Clips Vs. Magazines! ;D
*gets out rolled up newspaper*
NO! Bad Ray! Didn't you learn from the last, what three times?
:o
*looks up for roaming lightning-ban hammers*
boo.
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And we haven't even started in on Clips Vs. Magazines! ;D
*gets out rolled up newspaper*
NO! Bad Ray! Didn't you learn from the last, what three times?
*Yipes And Whimpers Like A Puppy That Did No Wrong*
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8 RC on the Praetor E still means -1 on a FA burst without strength-assisted RC. Well, unless you're breaking up your bursts into short and long, which, honestly is the best way to do things. But still, the +1DV -1AP of an assault rifle is worth losing two dice in most cases.
So, I think that it's pretty much clear that the best pistol is an Ares Alpha.
You're almost always better off doing a short and long burst than a full burst. As for the DV, it does depend if you're living in a SnS world or not. If you are, the deeper clip and net -2 concealability difference of the Praetor makes it better than the Alpha unless you actually plan on using the grenade launcher.
If you can manage a gyromounted cyberlimb, the various innate HV weapons are the best SnS spammers. The HVBR works even if you aren't a SnS spammer and technically one-handable as well if you use that optional rule (which I assume is the case).
You can also make the Alpha quite concealable. Lined coat, chameleon coating and shortened barrel gives people a net -1 to spot it and at worst +3 when patting you down (depending on how your GM does the math). With a decent enough palming check, you too can put off Highlanderesque "where did he hide that?" shenanigans.
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Streetline Special.
You won't care when you have to dump it down a sewer grate. :P
That reminds me of a gun I designed in SR3 using the Cannon Companion Redux rules. It was called the Streetline Single. A one-shot Hold Out Pistol for 25¥. Shot, toss, and be done with it.
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High capacity light pistol like the fuchetti secura (i think thats it) that holds 30 per clip modified for recoil comp and make it burst fire. Fire stick and shock wide for good damage, less defense and concealable.
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Since we're on the topic of guns, has anyone been able to make sense of how the guns are priced or their availability? It doesn't seem that power level is the only factor.
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Marketing, production costs, ability to mass produce, places produced, knock-offs that are available, bribes to legislators to let them pass those particular models from legislation already in effect, bribes to LEOs to "Crack down on illegal/poorly made competitors models"...
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Since we're on the topic of guns, has anyone been able to make sense of how the guns are priced or their availability? It doesn't seem that power level is the only factor.
As usual, the guns are priced on power, bulk, weight, capacity, and add-ons -- smartlink, rangefinder, etc. etc. The further away from the 'baseline' basic gun, the more expensive they usually are.
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Ruger warhawk fitted with exex and smartlink and upgraded to semi auto. With an adept with nimble fingers (reload the entire drum as a free action) is my favourite. SURE you dont get burst fire for a whole... +2 damage. But you are doing 7 damage - 3ap with no recoil to worry about which means more called shots all for the price of 1 weapon modfication slot.
Im really not a fan of burstfire pistols. If you're goinf to go for heavy damage, Cyber arms gyro stabilization, gass vents, fullauto weapons, otherwise stick to semi auto.
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My choice isn't on the list, but I gotta go with the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki. Sure, its a light pistol, but 40 rounds of ammo, treating burst fire recoil like semi-auto recoil is a lot better than most of the pistols out there. The Predator is nice for heavy hitters, but for most people, I gotta go with the Fubuki. It is pretty much a staple of all my characters, except for the street sammy or weapon specialist types. Face it, if a mage needs more than 40 rounds in a fight, you are all royally fragged anyways.
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Best pistol in the game?
From a Crunch Point of View
its either the YSF with extended capacity (4 x 12 Ammo ;) ) and topmounted Smart (internal is too expensive)
or the RSW with HighPower mod, extended Drum, HM Mod and AP-Flechette Ammo (10K with PB-2 IIRC.
War is a heaven for Powergamer)personal Grip & Ammo selection
from the Fluff PoV
Colt Manhunter or Enfield Merlin
Hough!
Medicineman
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That reminds me of a gun I designed in SR3 using the Cannon Companion Redux rules. It was called the Streetline Single. A one-shot Hold Out Pistol for 25¥. Shot, toss, and be done with it.
Sounds kind of like the 4 winds shotgun. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13116475/4-Winds-Shotgun)
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That reminds me of a gun I designed in SR3 using the Cannon Companion Redux rules. It was called the Streetline Single. A one-shot Hold Out Pistol for 25¥. Shot, toss, and be done with it.
Sounds kind of like the 4 winds shotgun. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13116475/4-Winds-Shotgun)
Nice.
IIRC, I even threw a bullet in with the Streetline Single ;)
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Name Conceal Ammo Mode Damage Weight Availability Cost St. Index Legal RC
Streetline
Single 10 (7) 1 (b) SS 4L .5 2/6 hrs 25¥ .75 10P-E -
Streetline Single – This gun is the ultimate in disposable pistols. It is made out of all steel components, and is best suited for the ganger that just wants to shoot, and then throw the gun away. It is very concealable and heavy for its kind, but very cheap. Comes with a free bullet!
[This gun has a Concealability of 7 for MAD detectors. Being a Hold-Out Pistol, it cannot mount any accessories.]
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That reminds me of a gun I designed in SR3 using the Cannon Companion Redux rules. It was called the Streetline Single. A one-shot Hold Out Pistol for 25¥. Shot, toss, and be done with it.
Sounds kind of like the 4 winds shotgun. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13116475/4-Winds-Shotgun)
Looks almost like the bang-stick gizmo used by John Kelly nee Clarkused in Tom Clancy's Without Remorse to take out one of the drug dealers. Punched it right up against his solar plexus ...
"Cause of death," the coroner observed with early-morning irony, "is the total vaporization of his heart. The only way we'll even be able to identify heart tissue is under a microscope. Steak tartare," the man added, shaking his head.
"An obvious contact wound. The guy must have jammed the muzzle right into him, then triggered it off."
"Jesus, he didn't even cough up any blood..."
"No diaphragm," the ME explained, pointing to the entrance hole. "That's between here and the heart. We'll probably find that the whole respiratory system is wiped out, too. You know, I've never seen anything this clean in my life." And the man had been working this job for sixteen years. "We need lots of pictures. This one will find its way into a textbook."
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That reminds me of a gun I designed in SR3 using the Cannon Companion Redux rules. It was called the Streetline Single. A one-shot Hold Out Pistol for 25¥. Shot, toss, and be done with it.
Sounds kind of like the 4 winds shotgun. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13116475/4-Winds-Shotgun)
Looks almost like the bang-stick gizmo used by John Kelly nee Clarkused in Tom Clancy's Without Remorse to take out one of the drug dealers. Punched it right up against his solar plexus ...
"Cause of death," the coroner observed with early-morning irony, "is the total vaporization of his heart. The only way we'll even be able to identify heart tissue is under a microscope. Steak tartare," the man added, shaking his head.
"An obvious contact wound. The guy must have jammed the muzzle right into him, then triggered it off."
"Jesus, he didn't even cough up any blood..."
"No diaphragm," the ME explained, pointing to the entrance hole. "That's between here and the heart. We'll probably find that the whole respiratory system is wiped out, too. You know, I've never seen anything this clean in my life." And the man had been working this job for sixteen years. "We need lots of pictures. This one will find its way into a textbook."
Heh that's a good one. :D
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Since we're on the topic of guns, anyone know the ranges for the Supe Squirt? Using that with Slab to force comatose status is almost better than a kill shot.
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Since we're on the topic of guns, anyone know the ranges for the Supe Squirt? Using that with Slab to force comatose status is almost better than a kill shot.
Not as good as a heavy pistol, I'm sure. Pop 'em with a chem round loading Slab if you're gonna go that way. Only problem with chem is that even the fastest take a few seconds, which means they have until the end of the turn ...
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Since we're on the topic of guns, anyone know the ranges for the Supe Squirt? Using that with Slab to force comatose status is almost better than a kill shot.
It's hidden in the fluff:
This popular non-lethal weapon fires dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO, a carrier that forces the skin to absorb chemicals) gel packs that can deliver a chemical substance over light pistol ranges.
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Thanks, Fringe
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Since we're on the topic of guns, anyone know the ranges for the Supe Squirt? Using that with Slab to force comatose status is almost better than a kill shot.
Not as good as a heavy pistol, I'm sure. Pop 'em with a chem round loading Slab if you're gonna go that way. Only problem with chem is that even the fastest take a few seconds, which means they have until the end of the turn ...
What about if you catch them in a surprise round? :P
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Hey, don't get me wrong; I love chem rounds. I'm just pointing out the disadvantage.
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Hey, don't get me wrong; I love chem rounds. I'm just pointing out the disadvantage.
Works well if you have a pacifist.
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I miss the NarcoJet pistol. The Parashield Dart Pistol just isn't the same. :'(
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I miss the NarcoJet pistol. The Parashield Dart Pistol just isn't the same. :'(
Ah, the Narcojet Pistol - I remember it fondly - the players wanting their characters to have it, and then the opposition being able to negate it - good times were had by all!
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While the Ares Predator IV is indeed a very keen weapon, my old school samurai likes his twin custom M1911 variants. Still deadly enough to ruin most peoples day. And yes, He Likes Chow Yun Fat Films :)
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John Woo actually hates the M1911, thinks it's ugly. He prefers the M92 for it's lines.
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John Woo actually hates the M1911, thinks it's ugly. He prefers the M92 for it's lines.
And John Woo can eat my .45 cal rounds from my Robocop Predator.
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Predator apparently eats 10mm Caseless. :P
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Predator apparently eats 10mm Caseless. :P
Gun power...... yummmm..... :D
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John Woo is allowed his own taste in iron. But for cheap but decent firepower, kinda hard to beat in SR
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Predator apparently eats 10mm Caseless. :P
It's pretty much the same thing. The big difference is the .45 acp has less balistic pressure compared to the 10mm.
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John Woo actually hates the M1911, thinks it's ugly. He prefers the M92 for it's lines.
And John Woo can eat my .45 cal rounds from my Robocop Predator.
*Puts on professor outfit, lights up pipe, and speaks in bad german-professor accent*
Actually, if ve vere to be completely accurate, ze Auto-9 from Robocop, vhich by proxy became za much beloved Ares Predator 1, vas a heavily modified Beretta 92R, chambered in 9mm.
*puff-puff*
Eazer vay, ja, John Voo can take a .45 in ze face at least for for all zose schtupid doves.
;)
hehehe. On a personal note, I paraphrase one of the US Marines rules of gunfighting: never use a caliber that dosen't have at least a "4" as the first number I prefer .45 ACP, 230 grain JHP when on duty. When I shoot something, I want it to go down without having to empty my weapon. I also aspire to that in SR. I have yet to use a character who used a light pistol, unless I picked one up off a corpse. *shrugs* I like big bang-bangs.
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Ammo is cheap, life is expensive. (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4660.msg69944#msg69944)
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Ammo is cheap, life is expensive. (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4660.msg69944#msg69944)
Ain't that the truth.... XD
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From the Ork's Guide To Gunfighting:
"3. The only thing cheaper than your life is ammo, don't be cheap on it, what's worth shooting once is worth shooting ten times."
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Ammo is cheap, life is expensive. (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4660.msg69944#msg69944)
LOL
Well done sir. Well done.
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*shrugs* I like big bang-bangs.
[singing]
I like big bang-bangs and I cannot lie,
You other 'runners can't deny.
When a Sam walking in with an itty bitty Mage
And points Ruger at your Face
You get sprung, wanna pull out your tough...
[/singing]
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From the Ork's Guide To Gunfighting:
"3. The only thing cheaper than your life is ammo, don't be cheap on it, what's worth shooting once is worth shooting ten times."
http://lgliang.deviantart.com/art/Dakka-Lad-178511060
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Beware the man with but one weapon, for he probably knows how to use it.
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Beware the man with but one weapon, for he probably knows how to use it.
If that weapon is "The First Weapon", he probably knows how to use it very well.
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Beware the man with eight weapons. He probably knows how to use them all.
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Beware the man with eight weapons. He probably knows how to use them all.
"What if it was one man with 6 guns?"
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Ah, the good ol' New York Reload. ;D
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That's not New York, it's Boston.
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That's not New York, it's Boston.
Silly me, I thought it was the cavalry reload.
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Just don't be the fool with the flintlock.... :P
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That's not New York, it's Boston.
Silly me, I thought it was the cavalry reload.
Actually it was a quote from the Original Boondock Saints
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That's not New York, it's Boston.
Silly me, I thought it was the cavalry reload.
Actually it was a quote from the Original Boondock Saints
No. the first line was, but not the New York Reload or the "not New York, it's Boston" line.
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I prefer the "Border Switch", myself. But that was back in the days of Cap & Ball Revolvers. Today, with magazines (Ugh. CLIPS!) and speedloaders, it's not as handy as it used to be unless you have no cover at all.
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"FIVE ROUNDS, RAPID!"
-k
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Karma Inferno, you were right. :P
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Beware the man with eight weapons. He probably knows how to use them all.
"What if it was one man with 6 guns?"
Changeling with two sets of Shiva arms, aiming six Remington Roomsweepers at you = maximum intimidation. 8)
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Troll Changeling with two sets of Shiva arms, aiming six Remington Roomsweepers at you = maximum intimidation. 8)
Added more Intimidation.
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I say the Ares Predator IV as well, for reasons already stated previously in the thread. Now if you wanna go for that niche use of dual wielding heavy pistols, go for broke with that Ruger Super Warhawk. It may not have the ammo capacity, but if you're good enough to be dual wielding, putting two rounds from each hand from a Ruger into your target will probably make them fall down hard. ;D 8)
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Except that the Ruger is single shot. But that makes it good for dual wielding, if you are ambidextrous, since firing that single shot is still a simple action. One shot from each pistol, with full dice pool and smartlink bonuses, and the advantages of no recoil, and the superior damage and AP of the Warhawk. Dual-wielding two semi-automatic or burst-fire weapons is more of a niche role, suited for mowing down slow-moving mooks but not very useful against decent opposition.
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Except that the Ruger is single shot. But that makes it good for dual wielding, if you are ambidextrous, since firing that single shot is still a simple action. One shot from each pistol, with full dice pool and smartlink bonuses, and the advantages of no recoil, and the superior damage and AP of the Warhawk. Dual-wielding two semi-automatic or burst-fire weapons is more of a niche role, suited for mowing down slow-moving mooks but not very useful against decent opposition.
Oh yeah...forgot it was single shot, but that doesn't stop modding for SA, though how that would work with a revolver, I have no idea.
On the dice pool portion, you would have smaller pool still due to having to split the dice between each gun (and smartlink doesn't matter since it can't be applied when dual wielding).
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Troll Changeling Gun Adept with two sets of Shiva arms, aiming six Ares Predator IVs[/i] at you = maximum intimidation. 8)
Added more Intimidation.
Added a bit more intimidation.
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Except that the Ruger is single shot. But that makes it good for dual wielding, if you are ambidextrous, since firing that single shot is still a simple action. One shot from each pistol, with full dice pool and smartlink bonuses, and the advantages of no recoil, and the superior damage and AP of the Warhawk. Dual-wielding two semi-automatic or burst-fire weapons is more of a niche role, suited for mowing down slow-moving mooks but not very useful against decent opposition.
Oh yeah...forgot it was single shot, but that doesn't stop modding for SA, though how that would work with a revolver, I have no idea.
On the dice pool portion, you would have smaller pool still due to having to split the dice between each gun (and smartlink doesn't matter since it can't be applied when dual wielding).
You split the dice pool (and can't use a smartlink) when you are firing two guns simultaneously (typically getting two attacks with one simple action). I am talking about a simple action to fire the gun in one hand, and a simple action to fire the gun in the other hand. The same as shooting a semi-automatic pistol using one hand, only with no recoil penalty for the second shot, and a more powerful weapon.
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Troll Changeling Gun Adept with two sets of Shiva arms and an Atzlan Deathmask , aiming six Pimped Ares Predator IVs[/i] at you = maximum intimidation. 8)
Added more Intimidation.
Added a bit more intimidation.
added even more Intimidation
Hough!
Medicineman
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Except that the Ruger is single shot. But that makes it good for dual wielding, if you are ambidextrous, since firing that single shot is still a simple action. One shot from each pistol, with full dice pool and smartlink bonuses, and the advantages of no recoil, and the superior damage and AP of the Warhawk. Dual-wielding two semi-automatic or burst-fire weapons is more of a niche role, suited for mowing down slow-moving mooks but not very useful against decent opposition.
Oh yeah...forgot it was single shot, but that doesn't stop modding for SA, though how that would work with a revolver, I have no idea.
On the dice pool portion, you would have smaller pool still due to having to split the dice between each gun (and smartlink doesn't matter since it can't be applied when dual wielding).
You split the dice pool (and can't use a smartlink) when you are firing two guns simultaneously (typically getting two attacks with one simple action). I am talking about a simple action to fire the gun in one hand, and a simple action to fire the gun in the other hand. The same as shooting a semi-automatic pistol using one hand, only with no recoil penalty for the second shot, and a more powerful weapon.
Oh? I thought it was split dice pool when dual wielding period no matter how you went about it. Oh well, I make mistakes just like everybody else.
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Oh yeah...forgot it was single shot, but that doesn't stop modding for SA, though how that would work with a revolver, I have no idea.
This is how. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateba_Autorevolver)
-k
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Combine this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateba_Autorevolver
with This
http://www.vincelewis.net/60magnum.html
For Gunsligner Troll Adapt..
Flawless Victory.
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Combine this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateba_Autorevolver
with This
http://www.vincelewis.net/60magnum.html
For Gunsligner Troll Adapt..
Flawless Victory.
FA-.... TALITY!
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Fun times if you ask me.
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The Mateba wasn't available in .600, but it was in .454 Casull, which is already pretty damn powerful.
-k
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Either way, it shoots through schools.
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Either way, it shoots through schools.
With a -9 penalty
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Either way, it shoots through schools.
With a -9 penalty
Still shooting through the school.
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But do you actually shoot the school itself? ;)
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But do you actually shoot the school itself? ;)
Depends on the type of message I'm trying to send.
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Either way, it shoots through schools.
With a -9 penalty
depends on the weight of the frame and the counterweight RC attached :D
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Personally, I like the Ruger Super Warhawk. Modified for a large cylinder, personalized grip and make it Single Action. 6P with -2AP. Toss in Ex-Ex rounds to jump it up to 7P and -3AP, its pretty mean. Right now my street sam is using one, its customized to the High-Powered ammo from War. I don't -have- any of it yet, but when I do it's going to be a beast. I might need to put on a heavy barrel at some point to handle the double recoil penalty. Still 8P and -2 AP is pretty crunchy.
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7P -3AP is why Nas carries one. He uses it to hunt cars.
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Personally, I like the Ruger Super Warhawk. Modified for a large cylinder, personalized grip and make it Single Action. 6P with -2AP. Toss in Ex-Ex rounds to jump it up to 7P and -3AP, its pretty mean. Right now my street sam is using one, its customized to the High-Powered ammo from War. I don't -have- any of it yet, but when I do it's going to be a beast. I might need to put on a heavy barrel at some point to handle the double recoil penalty. Still 8P and -2 AP is pretty crunchy.
You mean 8p -3 AP, don't you?
Also, "Heavy Barrel" only provides recoil comp to full bursts.
If I read the info correctly, HP rounds give you a -2 penalty because of "excessive recoil", which means you need 2 points of RC to get the job done. Your best bet is probably Personalized Grip and an Underbarrel Weight, which leaves enough room left over for Increased Cylinder. One in each hand and you've got 16 shots. More than enough for the gun-slinging Elf in my group.
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The Mateba wasn't available in .600, but it was in .454 Casull, which is already pretty damn powerful.
-k
Figuring there are second and third string specialty gunshops that could create custom guns (we have them today), and Troll sized pistols and other weapons become more viable within the game
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...Ruger Super Warhawk with EXEX. Never let the kid down yet.
May only have 6 shots, but they're 6 shots that make very big holes in the oppos.
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...Ruger Super Warhawk with EXEX. Never let the kid down yet.
May only have 6 shots, but they're 6 shots that make very big holes in the oppos.
"It only holds six rounds. But that's six dead opponents."
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...Ruger Super Warhawk with EXEX. Never let the kid down yet.
May only have 6 shots, but they're 6 shots that make very big holes in the oppos.
Why hasn't anyone come up with APDS EXEX rounds?
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The sabot sub-munition is too small to hold the dense armor piercing ability and an explosive charge at the same time.
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The sabot sub-munition is too small to hold the dense armor piercing ability and an explosive charge at the same time.
Bah this is the future isn't it? Why don't they have teleporting bullets yet! xD
Anyways it seems a lot of people like the ruger.... o.O'
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Well, to be fair, how many people have fired a pistol more than six times? It's Shadowrun, not "Kill every motherslotter in the room for XP". If you need moar dakka, there's always Machine Pistols, SMGs, and Assault Rifles.
The only reason to swap out mags (*Sighs* CLIPS!) in a pistol is to use special munitions.
There's also the fact that the Ruger Superwarhawk is able to be used to hunt CARS. That's why my Elven Wheelman, Nas, carries his (That, and he's Ork-Sized, so any other pistol looks like a Walther PPK in his massive mitt.). He uses Machine Pistols for lesser threats. He's not really a good shot with either, to be honest.
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"Great. Now I can flatten light ammo against body armor faster than ever before."
Honestly, while over the four 'runs I was in at DragonCon I shot only ... two rounds (AV vs. armored window) and one (Gamma-Scop against that technomancer), unless your character is a serious hard-ass and has seen a lot of combat, realistically they're going to be shooting back -- a lot. Even if they hit, they won't know/realize it right away, and squeeze off another three or four rounds, just because it takes a moment for a body to slump to the floor. Plus, accuracy (even with a 6 in whatever, smartlink, etc. etc.) is going to suck, because of sheer 'they're trying to KILL me!!!' twitchiness. The targets (read: security / gangers) are going to take cover and shoot back, not stand in the open like Imperial Stormtroopers.
Unless the character has that whole SpecForces / Merc / High-level bodyguard background (because high-end bodyguards are trained in live-fire or near-live-fire conditions to react properly, i.e. get their principal the hell out of Dodge City) / Agent background, they should probably be wasting at least a clip of ammo per fire-fight. Panic fire, inaccuracy, 'make sure he stays down' ...
Hm. You know, I just thought of a way for that rule to play out. Starting firearm combat dice pools -- because hand-to-hand is different -- would be something like 1/3 to 1/2 their trained size, due to an unfamiliarity with actual combat. Not sure how to define exactly what that should be, but I'd adjust it to the character background anyhow. For each combat full-Turn-or-longer combat the character is in, 1 die is returned to the skill pool, until they're at full -- at which point their combat experience is at the same level as their combat training.
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Fine and realistic idea but maybe a little to complicated to enforce.
Especially the 1/3 or 1/2 because that punish you more the better you are.
A guy with 6 dice pool and 1/2 would have a pool of 3 and be on full after 3 firefights.
The other guy with 20 dicepool would have a pool of 10 and be at full after 10 firefights.
That really isn't fair. A flat penalty of example -4 to the first real firefight and then -2 for the next couple of fights before eliminating the penalty.
It doesn't take into account the background story of the individual characters - som could be soldiers and shouldn't be penalized but then you only encourage all your players to make ex-military types just to avoid the penalty.
Rasmus
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Fine and realistic idea but maybe a little to complicated to enforce.
Especially the 1/3 or 1/2 because that punish you more the better you are.
A guy with 6 dice pool and 1/2 would have a pool of 3 and be on full after 3 firefights.
The other guy with 20 dicepool would have a pool of 10 and be at full after 10 firefights.
That really isn't fair. A flat penalty of example -4 to the first real firefight and then -2 for the next couple of fights before eliminating the penalty.
Punishes you more? Yes, sort of. It's the difference, however, between getting it in the 10 ring 99 times out of a hundred in cool, emotionless, no-stress target practice, and getting 99 hits out of 100 in panicked, adrenaline-surging, going-to-die combat. Yet the 20-down-to-10 starts off far better than the poor 6 bastard will ever be; the higher your skill, the higher your baseline, but I do take your point. I might move from -1/2 to, after 2 fights, -1/3, after 3 more fights -1/4, and after 4 more give the whole pool.
Complicated, though? That's casual book-keeping. You keep track of karma, don't you?
It doesn't take into account the background story of the individual characters - som could be soldiers and shouldn't be penalized but then you only encourage all your players to make ex-military types just to avoid the penalty.
I'm sorry?!?
Hm. You know, I just thought of a way for that rule to play out. Starting firearm combat dice pools -- because hand-to-hand is different -- would be something like 1/3 to 1/2 their trained size, due to an unfamiliarity with actual combat. Not sure how to define exactly what that should be, but I'd adjust it to the character background anyhow. For each combat full-Turn-or-longer combat the character is in, 1 die is returned to the skill pool, until they're at full -- at which point their combat experience is at the same level as their combat training.
It most certainly IS in there!!
I will say that I forgot to mention gangers who have had that combat experience on the streets; a trained-but-unblooded soldier (Agility 3, Firearms 3) is going to have less initial success against a less-trained but blooded (Agility 3, Firearms 2) ganger, just because the ganger has a better grip on their fear.
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Variant idea, and one I use a fair amount. The players don't get to know the damage track of the bad guys. Did he drop behind cover because he's unconscious/dead, or because he's seeking shelter?
If they're experienced shooters I may give obvious clues. "He drops bonelessly behind the crate." "With half his head missing, he drops behind the wall."
In fairness, my bad guys shoot extra shots as well.
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Examining the health of the opposition in combat is always something that I see as difficult in my game. The players usually only have the option of a Perception test, limited by their knowledge of First Aid +1.
1 hit: If they are injured or not
2 hits: Which is higher, the Stun or Physical Tracks
3 hits: What their current wound penalty is (which can be thrown off by damage compensators)
4 hits: What their current Physical Track is
5 hits: What their current Stun Track is
However, Assensing provides a better option, but only for living targets.
1 hit: If they are injured and if so, which is higher, Stun or Physical
2 hits: What their current Physical Track is
3 hits: What their current Stun Track is
Likewise, having a drone/vehicle run a self-diagnostic (which requires access) provides an exact readout.
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If i remember right... bad guys only have 1 track of health,
<.<
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Depends on the "bad guy".
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Depends on the "bad guy".
I figure the only 'bad guys' that i'll give multiple tracks are actually shadowrunner teams against shadowrunners. Maybe some key NPC's.
*Shrugs*
Think the players should have the advantage. xD
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No. Just no. This isn't D&D, where you're expected to be utterly badass. In Shadowrun, you do just enough to get the hell out of there. There should ALWAYS be bigger fish out there, and not far off. Players should always be running against the odds. There's a reason why, as DangerSensei says in that story in the SR4A book, one in ten runners actually manages to live through their first year.
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No. Just no. This isn't D&D, where you're expected to be utterly badass. In Shadowrun, you do just enough to get the hell out of there. There should ALWAYS be bigger fish out there, and not far off. Players should always be running against the odds. There's a reason why, as DangerSensei says in that story in the SR4A book, one in ten runners actually manages to live through their first year.
You seem to be miss interperting what I mean.
Lonestar or someone else vs a shadowrunner the shadowrunner should come out on top. Looking at the stats in the book this is easily so.
I'm not saying the shadowrunner's going to have an easy time and blow through everyone, all the time. I mean just like in DnD being out numbered can have quite an affect, and most of the time in shadowrun your outnumbered quite a bit.
<.< Also, when has DnD always been expected to be badass all the time? I can tell you it's rare and far inbetween that there are badass moments in the DnD I've played. The only time that comes to mind right now is when I was defending Shadowbane Lookout. (our home base) from a wizard floating in the air with an army of goblins, orcs, and a few orges. Had just bought some experimental arrows. I dubbed them Explosive Arrows, even though it was more like mini fireball arrows. Anyways my shortbow compostie served me well in shooting I think it was 270 feet out and nailed him flat in the face. >.> too bad he regained conciousness and floated the last 10 feet or so, I didn't have time to watch was busy having my tower assaulted, but that bastard Ilthorn had a blast of his life that day, after he roasted 4 of our PC's. Deserved it.
Anyways not many types of those moments.
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I was talking more about how you go in, slaughter everything in your path, take their stuff, and get songs sung about your deeds.
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I was talking more about how you go in, slaughter everything in your path, take their stuff, and get songs sung about your deeds.
>.> Most of their stuff get's left behind, we do loot the magical items but leaving them there just wouldn't do becuase some other menace would come by and get a free powerful weapon/item and then they'd start masacuring nearby village again. Haven't had any song's sung about my deeds yet. XD Also, you don't slaughter most everything in your path in shadowrun? I mean if someone's in your way your going to take them down no? Regradless of how you do how my paladin would do it, or you use lethal force.
(Paladin of Kelemvor, God of Death doesn't beleive in killing unless it's your actual time to die.... <.< necromancers however he'd destroy them any day of the weak. xD)
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I was talking more about how you go in, slaughter everything in your path, take their stuff, and get songs sung about your deeds.
The last part is easiest, you just buy drinks for the bar.
I didn't say the songs were any good. :P
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Like I said before, in Shadowrun the goal shouldn't be 'kill everything' but 'GTFO of Dodge'. You do enough to accomplish the mission and get out. Tactics become very important. Tossing flashbangs into a room before you breach in order to soften up the guards, spraying bullets to keep people's heads down while you escape, killing the lights, sealing doors behind you, diving off the cliff to the boat waiting below, and so on. But my inspiration for shadowrun comes primarily from sources such as James Bond, Johnny Mnemonic, Hackers, Ghost in the Shell, and the like. In other words, most of the time stealth, planning, and guerilla tactics are more important than blowing the hell out of things.
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Very true points.
But always carry explosives anyhow, because breaching a wall for a quick escape is always Plan B.
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Natch. But it is still well above 'kill everything in the place'. Because that kind of thinking gets you put at the top of a lot of 'to do' lists.
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Like I said before, in Shadowrun the goal shouldn't be 'kill everything' but 'GTFO of Dodge'. You do enough to accomplish the mission and get out. Tactics become very important. Tossing flashbangs into a room before you breach in order to soften up the guards, spraying bullets to keep people's heads down while you escape, killing the lights, sealing doors behind you, diving off the cliff to the boat waiting below, and so on. But my inspiration for shadowrun comes primarily from sources such as James Bond, Johnny Mnemonic, Hackers, Ghost in the Shell, and the like. In other words, most of the time stealth, planning, and guerilla tactics are more important than blowing the hell out of things.
It's just as equally important in Dnd. If you see an group of my firebusters. (red orcs) your not going to rush them, (or fire ball them for that matter) Your going to need to use tactic's to gain the initial upperhand, and if your doing a mission to obtain something from them or the Zhentarim you don't want to go exploring every damn room in the 4 floor dungeon, you'll never make it out alive. Don't make too much noise in the dungeon or you have to worry about flankers, if someone got away assume they are going to sound the alarm just like an alarm in the building. Beware of Invisible stalkers, or eyes on the walls, there are plenty of things in dnd that is just like Shadowrun.
I'm failing to see the fine point. I get that shadowrun is supposed to be deadly but it's still tailored to be advantagous to the player. There are plenty of things you can do to get you killed in Shadowrun, just like there are plenty of things that will get you killed in DnD. They are different because the settings are different sure, and I agree you don't want to stick around but from what you can do in shadowrun you can easily take down most opposition really quickly.
Your first sentance is also true of Dnd. Your first objective should not be kill everything, that is a way to garentee you'll make a lot of enemies in DnD.
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Your first sentance is also true of Dnd. Your first objective should not be kill everything, that is a way to garentee you'll make a lot of enemies in DnD.
But if you don't kill everything, how do you get XP and Lewt??? :'(
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Your first sentance is also true of Dnd. Your first objective should not be kill everything, that is a way to garentee you'll make a lot of enemies in DnD.
But if you don't kill everything, how do you get XP and Lewt??? :'(
You'll always get EXP, and there will always be "tomorrow". You don't need to "Kill" the enemies to get the exp from a situation. If you can circumvent a room of 2 dragons sleeping by some clever trick the DM should award you the same amount of EXP as if you had fought them. Or if you manage to convince them to not kill you. xD
Anyways, we digress.....
*goes back to looking at his shiny slivergun*
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You'll always get EXP, and there will always be "tomorrow". You don't need to "Kill" the enemies to get the exp from a situation. If you can circumvent a room of 2 dragons sleeping by some clever trick the DM should award you the same amount of EXP as if you had fought them. Or if you manage to convince them to not kill you. xD
Anyways, we digress.....
*goes back to looking at his shiny slivergun*
Humph. Kids today and their shiny new system that rewards you for NOT getting into acts of homicide! :P (I just started playing in an 2nd Ed AD&D game.).
Back to pistols, always go with the right tool for the right job. The Colt L36 "American" or Hammerli 620S are nice, slim, stylish pistols that won't raise the eyes of most officers, or even body guards (The Matte Black versions also look nice with Tuxes and Little Black Dresses, apparently.). An Ares Predator (No matter the make) or a Colt Manhunter for when you need to bring down the heavy heat are both nice. If you need to overcompensate for something, there's always the Ruger Superwarhawk (Or you're hunting cars, large paracritters, or really slotted off trolls.). Myself, I like Colt Asp's with specialty ammo for placing around a house, right beside FlashBang Grenades or other Distraction Devices.
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You'll always get EXP, and there will always be "tomorrow". You don't need to "Kill" the enemies to get the exp from a situation. If you can circumvent a room of 2 dragons sleeping by some clever trick the DM should award you the same amount of EXP as if you had fought them. Or if you manage to convince them to not kill you. xD
Anyways, we digress.....
*goes back to looking at his shiny slivergun*
Humph. Kids today and their shiny new system that rewards you for NOT getting into acts of homicide! :P (I just started playing in an 2nd Ed AD&D game.).
Back to pistols, always go with the right tool for the right job. The Colt L36 "American" or Hammerli 620S are nice, slim, stylish pistols that won't raise the eyes of most officers, or even body guards (The Matte Black versions also look nice with Tuxes and Little Black Dresses, apparently.). An Ares Predator (No matter the make) or a Colt Manhunter for when you need to bring down the heavy heat are both nice. If you need to overcompensate for something, there's always the Ruger Superwarhawk (Or you're hunting cars, large paracritters, or really slotted off trolls.). Myself, I like Colt Asp's with specialty ammo for placing around a house, right beside FlashBang Grenades or other Distraction Devices.
I'd like to note that I was introduced to dnd by my friend's dad who had the original box set for dnd. Those dice look so old and beat up it's crazy. He almost never uses them anymore against us either. XD anyways i have a more 1st 2nd edittion view for some of Dnd. Hell most people I've talked to do not like our house rules at all. XD
When you say the super rugar hawk brings down heavy things like cars could you give out an example, i'm really curious about that because I've yet to shoot a car and the Super Rugar Warhack really doesn't impress me that much when most shadowrunner characters are running around with like 16 Balistic. xD Example would be wonderful. :D
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Um, most shadowrunners do NOT run around with 16 ballistic armor. Not even in the slightest.
But yeah, the Ruger Superwarhawk is 6P, -2 AP. Not exactly car hunting material there, unless you have a really small car, and are using APDS ammo.
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You'll always get EXP, and there will always be "tomorrow". You don't need to "Kill" the enemies to get the exp from a situation. If you can circumvent a room of 2 dragons sleeping by some clever trick the DM should award you the same amount of EXP as if you had fought them. Or if you manage to convince them to not kill you. xD
Anyways, we digress.....
*goes back to looking at his shiny slivergun*
Humph. Kids today and their shiny new system that rewards you for NOT getting into acts of homicide! :P (I just started playing in an 2nd Ed AD&D game.).
Back to pistols, always go with the right tool for the right job. The Colt L36 "American" or Hammerli 620S are nice, slim, stylish pistols that won't raise the eyes of most officers, or even body guards (The Matte Black versions also look nice with Tuxes and Little Black Dresses, apparently.). An Ares Predator (No matter the make) or a Colt Manhunter for when you need to bring down the heavy heat are both nice. If you need to overcompensate for something, there's always the Ruger Superwarhawk (Or you're hunting cars, large paracritters, or really slotted off trolls.). Myself, I like Colt Asp's with specialty ammo for placing around a house, right beside FlashBang Grenades or other Distraction Devices.
I'd like to note that I was introduced to dnd by my friend's dad who had the original box set for dnd. Those dice look so old and beat up it's crazy. He almost never uses them anymore against us either. XD anyways i have a more 1st 2nd edittion view for some of Dnd. Hell most people I've talked to do not like our house rules at all. XD
When you say the super rugar hawk brings down heavy things like cars could you give out an example, i'm really curious about that because I've yet to shoot a car and the Super Rugar Warhack really doesn't impress me that much when most shadowrunner characters are running around with like 16 Balistic. xD Example would be wonderful. :D
I think the best starting place is to remember that vehicle armor is, for all intents and purposes, hardened. That's because you can't stun a vehicle. So unless your modified DV is greater than the vehicle's armor, it has no effect.
The Ruger Superhawk has 6P, -2AP base. That means as long as you get 1 net hit you're punching through armor 8 or less. Coincidentally, the stock armor for the Bulldog step van is 8.
This, by the way, exceeds what you can do with assault rifles or shotguns or submachine guns. You have to move up to sniper rifles to do better.
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Actually, it's not so much as "Car Hunting" as "Car Scaring The Hell Away".
No, if I was actually car hunting, Panther Assault Cannon or a HMG.
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You'll always get EXP, and there will always be "tomorrow". You don't need to "Kill" the enemies to get the exp from a situation. If you can circumvent a room of 2 dragons sleeping by some clever trick the DM should award you the same amount of EXP as if you had fought them. Or if you manage to convince them to not kill you. xD
Anyways, we digress.....
*goes back to looking at his shiny slivergun*
Humph. Kids today and their shiny new system that rewards you for NOT getting into acts of homicide! :P (I just started playing in an 2nd Ed AD&D game.).
Back to pistols, always go with the right tool for the right job. The Colt L36 "American" or Hammerli 620S are nice, slim, stylish pistols that won't raise the eyes of most officers, or even body guards (The Matte Black versions also look nice with Tuxes and Little Black Dresses, apparently.). An Ares Predator (No matter the make) or a Colt Manhunter for when you need to bring down the heavy heat are both nice. If you need to overcompensate for something, there's always the Ruger Superwarhawk (Or you're hunting cars, large paracritters, or really slotted off trolls.). Myself, I like Colt Asp's with specialty ammo for placing around a house, right beside FlashBang Grenades or other Distraction Devices.
I'd like to note that I was introduced to dnd by my friend's dad who had the original box set for dnd. Those dice look so old and beat up it's crazy. He almost never uses them anymore against us either. XD anyways i have a more 1st 2nd edittion view for some of Dnd. Hell most people I've talked to do not like our house rules at all. XD
When you say the super rugar hawk brings down heavy things like cars could you give out an example, i'm really curious about that because I've yet to shoot a car and the Super Rugar Warhack really doesn't impress me that much when most shadowrunner characters are running around with like 16 Balistic. xD Example would be wonderful. :D
I think the best starting place is to remember that vehicle armor is, for all intents and purposes, hardened. That's because you can't stun a vehicle. So unless your modified DV is greater than the vehicle's armor, it has no effect.
The Ruger Superhawk has 6P, -2AP base. That means as long as you get 1 net hit you're punching through armor 8 or less. Coincidentally, the stock armor for the Bulldog step van is 8.
This, by the way, exceeds what you can do with assault rifles or shotguns or submachine guns. You have to move up to sniper rifles to do better.
However, a Rover 2068 has a stock armor of 10... and a body of 16. Also a few levels of Passenger Protection stock. ;)
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(Paladin of Kelemvor, God of Death doesn't beleive in killing unless it's your actual time to die.... <.<
Oh that one's easy. "Hey Kelemvor, lemme know if it's not this guy's time to die and you want me to stop. Nothing? No? Sorry, dude, your time to die. I don't make the rules."
As for the first edition dice, my original set stopped getting used because the plastic was so cheap the dice started crumbling starting at the corners and my D20 wouldn't stop rolling due to it having become a ball.
I have another set still sealed in their original plastic baggie. I'm afraid that if I ever opened it the dice would corrode into dust.
-k
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You'll always get EXP, and there will always be "tomorrow". You don't need to "Kill" the enemies to get the exp from a situation. If you can circumvent a room of 2 dragons sleeping by some clever trick the DM should award you the same amount of EXP as if you had fought them. Or if you manage to convince them to not kill you. xD
Anyways, we digress.....
*goes back to looking at his shiny slivergun*
Humph. Kids today and their shiny new system that rewards you for NOT getting into acts of homicide! :P (I just started playing in an 2nd Ed AD&D game.).
Back to pistols, always go with the right tool for the right job. The Colt L36 "American" or Hammerli 620S are nice, slim, stylish pistols that won't raise the eyes of most officers, or even body guards (The Matte Black versions also look nice with Tuxes and Little Black Dresses, apparently.). An Ares Predator (No matter the make) or a Colt Manhunter for when you need to bring down the heavy heat are both nice. If you need to overcompensate for something, there's always the Ruger Superwarhawk (Or you're hunting cars, large paracritters, or really slotted off trolls.). Myself, I like Colt Asp's with specialty ammo for placing around a house, right beside FlashBang Grenades or other Distraction Devices.
I'd like to note that I was introduced to dnd by my friend's dad who had the original box set for dnd. Those dice look so old and beat up it's crazy. He almost never uses them anymore against us either. XD anyways i have a more 1st 2nd edittion view for some of Dnd. Hell most people I've talked to do not like our house rules at all. XD
When you say the super rugar hawk brings down heavy things like cars could you give out an example, i'm really curious about that because I've yet to shoot a car and the Super Rugar Warhack really doesn't impress me that much when most shadowrunner characters are running around with like 16 Balistic. xD Example would be wonderful. :D
I think the best starting place is to remember that vehicle armor is, for all intents and purposes, hardened. That's because you can't stun a vehicle. So unless your modified DV is greater than the vehicle's armor, it has no effect.
The Ruger Superhawk has 6P, -2AP base. That means as long as you get 1 net hit you're punching through armor 8 or less. Coincidentally, the stock armor for the Bulldog step van is 8.
This, by the way, exceeds what you can do with assault rifles or shotguns or submachine guns. You have to move up to sniper rifles to do better.
However, a Rover 2068 has a stock armor of 10... and a body of 16. Also a few levels of Passenger Protection stock. ;)
To which the proper answer is, "so?" With ExEX, net one hit is sufficient to penetrate the (unmodified) Rover with 7P/-3AP.
Let's be completely honest and note that if you're only getting one net hit you probably should not be the one shooting at a vehicle. Nonetheless, you need a sniper rifle or an MMG to have the same or better baseline.
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(Paladin of Kelemvor, God of Death doesn't beleive in killing unless it's your actual time to die.... <.<
Oh that one's easy. "Hey Kelemvor, lemme know if it's not this guy's time to die and you want me to stop. Nothing? No? Sorry, dude, your time to die. I don't make the rules."
As for the first edition dice, my original set stopped getting used because the plastic was so cheap the dice started crumbling starting at the corners and my D20 wouldn't stop rolling due to it having become a ball.
I have another set still sealed in their original plastic baggie. I'm afraid that if I ever opened it the dice would corrode into dust.
-k
:D pretty much what his looks like. Looks like it's about to fall apart at any moment but it still rolls. The problem is determining the number on the d20.
As for your qoute, that would probably lead me to being a fighter quite fast. We generally want the person to die a "natural death" and yeah there's always the saying "A dagger to the heart(or throat) quite naturally end's one's life." Generally don't live by that one lol.
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Um, most shadowrunners do NOT run around with 16 ballistic armor. Not even in the slightest.
But yeah, the Ruger Superwarhawk is 6P, -2 AP. Not exactly car hunting material there, unless you have a really small car, and are using APDS ammo.
Armored jacket + softweave + deltoid + some form fitting armor. + (Any other bonus you can think of adding on there)
From that alone i'm seeing, 8 + 3 + 6 = 17, you could take kevlar instead and make it 16. You can change it around depending on how much body you have.
<.< It's really not that hard to have that much running around with. I don't see why you wouldn't at least have some higher ballistic than the base gear. Also most of the group is running around with Rating 6 Insulation/non-conductivity/Fire/Chemical Resistance. Don't see why you wouldn't for the paranoid world of shadowrun.
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Depends on if you consider an Armored Jacket as "armored clothing" as far as using Delta Amyloid, I suppose.
-k
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Depends on if you consider an Armored Jacket as "armored clothing" as far as using Delta Amyloid, I suppose.
I would delta amyloid a piece from the Steampunk Line and have 10/7 with full FFBA 6/2 and then PPP to taste. It costs more, but it's also more balanced overall between impact and ballistic. I'm a big fan of delta amyloid greatcoats myself.
As for APDS using Superhawks, I tend to call guns like that can-openers since they're designed to break though armored vehicles. Called shot APDS Superhawks is -4 dice but does 10P -6AP damage (+net hits to DV). They'll hurt the vast majority of stock vehicles. The best can-opener of them all of course is the errataed Gauss Rifle.
Edit-Clarified Ammo
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Depends on if you consider an Armored Jacket as "armored clothing" as far as using Delta Amyloid, I suppose.
I would delta amyloid a piece from the Steampunk Line and have 10/7 with full FFBA 6/2 and then PPP to taste. It costs more, but it's also more balanced overall between impact and ballistic. I'm a big fan of delta amyloid greatcoats myself.
As for APDS using Superhawks, I tend to call guns like that can-openers since they're designed to break though armored vehicles. Called shot Superhawks is -4 dice but does 10P -6AP damage (+net hits to DV). They'll hurt the vast majority of stock vehicles. The best can-opener of them all of course is the errataed Gauss Rifle.
That also means it would get through the 16 balistic armor and make physical.... hmmm interesting. :D
Also I remember reading an argument about that some time ago, not sure there was a real difference in what the two sides were arguing. Looking at the pictures for some of the clothing it doesn't look like it's that armored, and looks more like clothing to me.
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I am damned with the Colt Manhunter since 2nd Ed. Every time one of my characters have tryed to use it I have only achieved to miss my rolls, even with a hand full of dice, the more success I ever get was ~3/4 succes even at short range :(
Shall I grab a colt manhuter, I will use it as a melee weapon, this could be worst :D
My favorite for pistols are :
- the Ares Predator.since the APII, any one is good for me! so AP4 is like a limo ;)
- the Ares Slivergun, I really like it with called shots with phys-ad
- the Fichetti 600 is fun with is large clip, I like to use it with stick n shock round
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Also I remember reading an argument about that some time ago, not sure there was a real difference in what the two sides were arguing. Looking at the pictures for some of the clothing it doesn't look like it's that armored, and looks more like clothing to me.
The argument boiled down to using the common-use definition of the word "clothing" as "a worn garment" vs a strict adherence to some fiddly technicalities in the book that were represented to mean that only the item "Clothing 0/0" counted as clothing, and everything else was armor and neither the twain shall meet. Now, let us not go back to that dark place, because I'm sure FastJack would be happier that way.
As for the subject at hand, I submit to you that the Yamaha "Sakura Fubuki" loaded with Stick'n'Shock is a fun little toy. Light pistol based off the real-world "Metal Storm" weapon concept, 40 round capacity in four tubes, can fire Narrow Short Bursts, but only takes recoil as if from firing single-shot.
Chop the stock, Suppress it, Cham-Coat it, add an Improved Range Finder, then slap on a Smartgun System accessory and put it in a Concealable Holster.
-7 Conceal, base -7 to hear it when it fires, no range penalties out to 15 meters, and can fire 13 bursts before reloading.
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...Ruger Super Warhawk with EXEX. Never let the kid down yet.
May only have 6 shots, but they're 6 shots that make very big holes in the oppos.
"It only holds six rounds. But that's six dead opponents."
"Two hundred punks,
well whatcha gonna do?
I got two six-shooters
that'll see me through.
That's ... 12 dead.
...
And a hundred and eighty-eight pallbearers."
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"And if we run out of ammo..." *Revs up Monofilament Chainsaw* "Oh, they're going to wish we hadn't run out of ammo!"
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"And if we run out of ammo..." *Revs up Monofilament Chainsaw* "Oh, they're going to wish we hadn't run out of ammo!"
*Sparks with electricity between hands and surrounding him as he prepares to over cast....
Scythe: You got that right.... Raikiri! (centering i have to say my spells in japanese :P)
*Throws F14 lightning ball*
ouch... that's 12 Drain more than my health.... time to edge my drain dice pool of 12 to 18, and then get a lucky ass roll! XD (got to love when your dice pool makes enough sixes to turn your whole dice pool into all fives and sixes to where you have to start adding dice xd)
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*Sparks with electricity between hands and surrounding him as he prepares to over cast....
Scythe: You got that right.... Raikiri! (centering i have to say my spells in japanese :P)
*Throws F14 lightning ball*
ouch... that's 12 Drain more than my health.... time to edge my drain dice pool of 12 to 18, and then get a lucky ass roll! XD (got to love when your dice pool makes enough sixes to turn your whole dice pool into all fives and sixes to where you have to start adding dice xd)
.... *mutters* Force halved, counterspelling, shielding ... hmmm ... can I ignore this?
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Back to the Ruger Thunderbolt, I cant figure out how to get it to five RC. You put on an underbarrel weight (the adjusting one is not allowed on pistols, but the standard is, thats one) you can add either a personalized grip or an electric firing system for a second point. It comes with two points standard. Thats four. You can't add a gas vent (not allowed on pistols). You could add a stock, but for goodness sake at that point is basically a smg, just get an smg not a burst fire pistol with a bloody stock. Am I missing something obvious at this point? How do you get that fifth RC point without it having it come from the character and not the gun?
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Back to the Ruger Thunderbolt, I cant figure out how to get it to five RC. You put on an underbarrel weight (the adjusting one is not allowed on pistols, but the standard is, thats one) you can add either a personalized grip or an electric firing system for a second point. It comes with two points standard. Thats four. You can't add a gas vent (not allowed on pistols). You could add a stock, but for goodness sake at that point is basically a smg, just get an smg not a burst fire pistol with a bloody stock. Am I missing something obvious at this point? How do you get that fifth RC point without it having it come from the character and not the gun?
Only other way I can see would be a Gyro in a Cyberarm or a point from having high Strength.
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You could add a stock, but for goodness sake at that point is basically a smg, just get an smg not a burst fire pistol with a bloody stock. Am I missing something obvious at this point? How do you get that fifth RC point without it having it come from the character and not the gun?
There's a huge difference between a smg and a Thunderbolt with a stock. They use entirely different skills and that's an up to 9 dice pool difference with some characters.
In addition to the gyromount cyberarm mod and the Strength provides RC optional rule* in Arsenal, there's also foot anchors.
*- An optional rule used in Missions and I recommend.
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I was working from Umaro's claim earlier in the thread that you can get the Thunderbolt to 5 RC, making it as that point, in his opinion "the best pistol". But I was hoping there was a way to hit 5 without doing something goofy like putting a stock on it, or mounting it on a bipod, etc (would have to look to see if the last is even legal). The point being is that if you are building a pistol character you want a pistol, something you can put in a shoulder holster or stick in the pocket of your greatcoat. With a stock basically you have built a poor man's smg (actually an expensive poor man's smg once you put all the mods on it). It might be useful for times when the plan is to go in heavy and loud and your pistols 7 (automatics) guy without another firearms skill wants an assault weapon, but I was just saying if you are going to carry one as your standard weapon then you probably should have built an automatics character instead.
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Thunderbolt has 2 pts of integral RC. Underbarrel weight makes it 3. Folding stock makes it 4. Personalized grip makes it 5.
Concealability is still 0. Damage is still 5P -1AP.
Unfortunately, it still has crap for range and poo capacity.
Btw, "Folding Stock... As the name suggests, the stock can be folded into the weapon’s frame so it is not in the way when it’s not needed." So it has the same profile as a heavy pistol but can fire 2 fully comped short bursts without Str RC. Even has 2 mod slots left to give it Chameleon Coat or give it Easy Breakdown and an Improved Range Finder.
I still think that an Ares Alpha AR is the best pistol..
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I still think that an Ares Alpha AR is the best pistol..
A what?
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The Ares Alpha assault rifle.
I'd rather fire an AR one-handed at a -2 penalty than use a pistol.
(this is based on the original question clarifying to "what is most combat effective one handed weapon." Obviously pistols have their place vis a vis concealability.)
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The Ares Alpha assault rifle.
I'd rather fire an AR one-handed at a -2 penalty than use a pistol.
(this is based on the original question clarifying to "what is most combat effective one handed weapon." Obviously pistols have their place vis a vis concealability.)
It is very difficult to put an Ares Alpha in the pocket of your great coat and go for a drink at the bar. If all you are concerned about is jumping out of the helo while screaming "get some", yes, the Alpha is your tool of choice. Pistols are for when you want to go subtle.
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The Ares Alpha assault rifle.
I'd rather fire an AR one-handed at a -2 penalty than use a pistol.
(this is based on the original question clarifying to "what is most combat effective one handed weapon." Obviously pistols have their place vis a vis concealability.)
See I thought you'd somehow modified one into heavy pistol size.
whew
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The Ares Alpha assault rifle.
I'd rather fire an AR one-handed at a -2 penalty than use a pistol.
(this is based on the original question clarifying to "what is most combat effective one handed weapon." Obviously pistols have their place vis a vis concealability.)
ambidexterity and 2 ares alpha will be even better. And you can use cancelled holsters with a lined coat to make the cancelability acceptable.
;)
I am joking.
To be honest I don't think I would allow a character to use an assault rifle as his regular "pistol".
Less for game balance than for my personnal idea of what I want my game to looks like.
For me an AR and most SMG are to be used 2 handed.
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Ambidexterity and 2 ares alpha will be even better. And you can use cancelled holsters with a lined coat to make the concealability acceptable.
;)
I am joking.
To be honest I don't think I would allow a character to use an assault rifle as his regular "pistol".
Less for game balance than for my personnal idea of what I want my game to looks like.
For me an AR and most SMG are to be used 2 handed.
One word for you: Trolls
First off, trolls average 2.5 meters, nearly 50% taller than a human, and mass four times as much, which I think is actually a bit light given how much broader they are for their height in the pictures than a human. Given their mass and their inhuman strength, a SMG or Assault Rifle with a Troll-Sized grip would be equivalent in bulk and kick to a Machine Pistol used by a Human.
The RAW already states they get -1 instead of -2 for using a two-hander one-handed, and I'd personally HR that the -1 would count as Recoil and could be removed with Recoil Comp.
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Sure that Trolls can be an exception but nevertheless it really "disturb" me.
The balance of a rifle is not the same as for pistols... maybe with a customization of the rifle....
It can be fun for a "once upon a time big-apocalyptical-gun-justu-fight" or something like that, but as a GM I think I will frag the troll and his bins if Ex-explosive AR ammo rounds :D
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Sure that Trolls can be an exception but nevertheless it really "disturb" me.
The balance of a rifle is not the same as for pistols... maybe with a customization of the rifle....
It can be fun for a "once upon a time big-apocalyptical-gun-justu-fight" or something like that, but as a GM I think I will frag the troll and his bins if Ex-explosive AR ammo rounds :D
I figure the balance part is covered by Metahuman Customization having to effectively completely redesign the grip and trigger area and putting more weight back on that end. Plus, remember, they still do get a -1 penalty, so it's not like they get off scott free for doing it.
Secondly, my Troll uses APDS, not ExEx. His weapon is also Suppressed and has Electronic Firing. Caseless ammo, -9 to hear the shot, and no rifling on the bullets if/when they're recovered, because the disposable Sabot got the rifle pattern, and was destroyed as it exited the barrel. Very useful for a guy whose job description includes spraying vast amounts of lead.
Plus, if you do it that way, you only have to get each gun up to 5 points of recoil, which is much easier than 9, and you can fire two Long Bursts, one with each gun.
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::)
That is what is funny in the SR world, you can really meet any kind of characters.
I think I won't mind to introduce this kind of combo as an NPC in a specific scene, but I think that it will bother me to GM it if that is the usual combat mode of the character.
That's just a question of personal feeling. ;)
I have played many trolls/large metas, and those who were using assault rifle or LMG always used them "two handed".
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What about Nartaki? Two LMGs at once with no one-handed penalties? Sign me up!
For even more crazy awesome, changeling troll with 4 arms and 4 Assault Rifles. Sure, you have to split your pool, but if you can pull off a large enough dice pool to hit with long bursts, you can take down four enemies in a single initiative pass. Someone get an optimisation master on this ASAP.
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....oO(there's been a terrifying 4 Armed Troll on Dumpschock.... IIRC with 2 or 4 Miniguns.....)
with a thoughtfull Dance
Medicineman
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....oO(there's been a terrifying 4 Armed Troll on Dumpschock.... IIRC with 2 or 4 Miniguns.....)
with a thoughtfull Dance
Medicineman
And he's still not as scary as Bubba The Love Troll. :P
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*Sparks with electricity between hands and surrounding him as he prepares to over cast....
Scythe: You got that right.... Raikiri! (centering i have to say my spells in japanese :P)
*Throws F14 lightning ball*
ouch... that's 12 Drain more than my health.... time to edge my drain dice pool of 12 to 18, and then get a lucky ass roll! XD (got to love when your dice pool makes enough sixes to turn your whole dice pool into all fives and sixes to where you have to start adding dice xd)
.... *mutters* Force halved, counterspelling, shielding ... hmmm ... can I ignore this?
That's still a F7 coming your way and with Edge..... no you can't especially with my luck. xD
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Made a Merc who would have 3 Browning Ultra-Power's strapped to his lower back because it was "more compact than the predator" (we tend to play off the description as much as the stats), but always had a custom Ruger Super Warhawk on his hip (Semi-Automatic) to quick draw and lay down the law if (and when) meets went sour.
my 2 cents.
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Magazines are smaller than pistols. Better one or two Ultra-Powers and six spare mags.
*Sighs* Clips. :'(
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I haven't been on this thread in forever.... Haha. Btw, is there a way to remove my little poll at the top?
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Maybe if you go into the original post and edit it. That's how it is in Proboards at least.
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Maybe if you go into the original post and edit it. That's how it is in Proboards at least.
Well, this IS a poll, so we're going to keep it around.
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Fair enough.
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Savalette Guardian
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Savalette Guardian
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/Bager1968/Game%20stuff/thread_necromancer.gif)
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*Sparks with electricity between hands and surrounding him as he prepares to over cast....
Scythe: You got that right.... Raikiri! (centering i have to say my spells in japanese :P)
*Throws F14 lightning ball*
ouch... that's 12 Drain more than my health.... time to edge my drain dice pool of 12 to 18, and then get a lucky ass roll! XD (got to love when your dice pool makes enough sixes to turn your whole dice pool into all fives and sixes to where you have to start adding dice xd)
.... *mutters* Force halved, counterspelling, shielding ... hmmm ... can I ignore this?
That's still a F7 coming your way and with Edge..... no you can't especially with my luck. xD
Well, against a F14 'overcast' by someone with presumably a 7 Magic ... I think I can. The defense against an Indirect Combat spell is Reaction + Intuition, and since Hawatari (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1voaU3OF1-nqO10jhxJAURHs0h_DRgeArDSsFW4N2CLU/edit?usp=sharing) habitually begins combat with going on preemptive Full Defense, that puts her defenses at 26 + 11, or 37, as a base. Her counterspelling pool is 26 base counterspelling, +2 vs Combat spell, +12 power focus, +16 Initiate Grade for Shielding, or 56; just a nudge above a third of that to be safe puts the total between the two at 56, and presuming she doesn't want to swat it right back at you, bought hits put it at 14, with a rolled average of almost 19.
If it gets through, she's got 8 Body +3 Bone Lacing +3 Orthoskin; Armor of +13 for her Mortimer of London Berwick Suit and Argentum Coat +9 Armor Spell (R9 Flexible Quickening) +3 Bone Lacing -14 for the Lightning, for a total of 25 dice to resist any damage - 6 more hits.
... so yeah, she can probably relatively ignore it. And then shoot you with her custom pistol. ;)
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Unless I'm missing something, for spell defense counterspelling pool is Counterspelling skill, so Magic doesn't come into play (it would for Dispelling), and thus nor does Power Focus (a Counterspelling Focus would), so her Counterspelling pool would be 8+2+16 = 26. Obviously still huge, as she's an incredibly experienced character.
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You guys are necroing a 4 year old discussion. I seriously doubt the original other participant will bother to read this.
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Time for my own two nuyen bit of necromancy: Colt. Manhunter. The old one with laser sight. True, holosight is normally better, but impairs quick draw. Pistol, whether as a hidden weapon or a backup for bigger guns, should ALWAYS be available. That means no holosight that slow down the deployment and no smartgun system add-ons that would make it vulnerable to hackers. The only exception that I am willing to accept would be 4E Urban Fighter, a heavy pistol companion for Urban Combat SMG, for when you need to smuggle a gun past some serious security. BTW, has Urban Fighter been converted to 5E yet?
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Officially, no it has not. There was a thread somewhere where a member converted a ton of stuff to 5th. It is in the child board of GM Lounge.
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I don't think it's the best pistol in this game, but the Ares Light Fire Seventy is the perfect burner gun, as the current iteration of the Saturday Night Special.
It's widely available, you can extend the clip, it's cheap.
While it has a specific silencer for seven fifty, there's always the option of grabbing the next pillow.