[Moonshine Fox]

You miss my point.  I'm not saying the Mage can't - or even shouldn't - add "drone bunny" to their CV.  My point is that people can not use drones to justify a Rigger's purpose when drones are available to all.  When every other character can use drones remotely just as well as the Rigger, then that can't be the Rigger's purpose.

Ok, but everyone can put ranks into firearms and grab a gun, smartlink, and some armor. That doen’t invalidate the street sam.

Others can use drones yes, but it’s doubtful that they will put the nuyen or karma into the skills and equipment to excel at it like a rigger would. One is a dabbler or backup drone-runner, while the rigger is primary.

[Shinobi Killfist]

You miss my point.  I'm not saying the Mage can't - or even shouldn't - add "drone bunny" to their CV.  My point is that people can not use drones to justify a Rigger's purpose when drones are available to all.  When every other character can use drones remotely just as well as the Rigger, then that can't be the Rigger's purpose.

Ok, but everyone can put ranks into firearms and grab a gun, smartlink, and some armor. That doen’t invalidate the street sam.

Others can use drones yes, but it’s doubtful that they will put the nuyen or karma into the skills and equipment to excel at it like a rigger would. One is a dabbler or backup drone-runner, while the rigger is primary.

Yeah. That is one of the function of a classless system. Generally anyone can pick up anything. There might be exceptions. Like magic in shadowrun or the force in Star Wars. But your face can be a gun bunny etc.

[Kaz]

Sorry if this was answered before. I notice on the Rigger Dossier that in the attributes section that under Edge Points there is an Unarmed Attribute. Does this mean that Unarmed is a derived value from other stats? I didnt understand where that value was coming from.

I have not played much SR and am only familiar with 4e where unarmed is its own skill.

Thanks

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Sorry if this was answered before. I notice on the Rigger Dossier that in the attributes section that under Edge Points there is an Unarmed Attribute. Does this mean that Unarmed is a derived value from other stats? I didnt understand where that value was coming from.

I have not played much SR and am only familiar with 4e where unarmed is its own skill.

Thanks

Banshee addresses that in this other thread

Ok, but everyone can put ranks into firearms and grab a gun, smartlink, and some armor. That doen’t invalidate the street sam.

So then you agree with me that the Rigger has been poorly treated since all the way back in 1st? Good to know.

No, you know what?  I'll bite and play off your deflection.

Yes, in 6e more than ever Street Sams have been crapped on too.  Their claim to fame used to be Initiative.  Then Adepts.  Then the claim to fame was reduced to being the only archetype that could reliably be compitant with any firearm because they had very little use for Karma other than weapon skills.  Now?  One skill fits all.  Firearms puts the Street Sam to bed without its supper.

That still doesn't do one damn thing about Riggers being the waste binned second class citizens of the the Shadowrun World.  Thanks for playing.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The Classless system again.

With the very notable exceptions of magic and resonance, there are no capabilities that are reserved solely to certain archetypes.  Aside from Magic and Technomancer stuff, anyone can do anything if you invest in the skills and/or hardware.

Riggers are the mundanes that actually come closest to getting hallowed turf... you literally cannot perform their signature ability if you're not a rigger.  Or a post-chargen technomancer.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

The Classless system again.

With the very notable exceptions of magic and resonance, there are no capabilities that are reserved solely to certain archetypes.

And you know what that is?  That is half the Archetypes.

If you remove 1) Mystic Adepts, 2) Physical Adepts, 3) Mages, and 4) Technomancers:
You are left with 1) Faces, 2) Street Sams, 3) Deckers, and 4) Riggers.

Half the archetypes are not open to all.  At best that makes Shadowrun a hybrid system, not classless.

Riggers are the mundanes that actually come closest to getting hallowed turf... you literally cannot perform their signature ability if you're not a rigger.  Or a post-chargen technomancer.

And here is the twenty million nuyen question:

How many times has the signature ability had any bearing on your games?  Honestly.

In my case, I have been playing predominantly Riggers since the end of 2nd / beginning of 3rd - so about twenty years if you don't count the time surrounding 4th I didn't play any games.

Do you know how many times I, or any character for that matter, where required to make any vehicle tests that I didn't ask for (in my case)?

Two.

That is it.  Every other vehicle test that was made by me I asked to make.

Is my experience typical?  Holy hell, I hope not!
On the flip side, I am not a special unique snowflake either.

Just how much does this so-called signature ability come into play when the players do not coax it out of GMs?

I am guessing, and I will freely admit it is a guess, not very often at all.  I would be surprised if it actually made an impact more than 10% of the time.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I think if you are talking gimmick it’s really just mages. Adepts are just dudes getting to the same point as a mundane but with magic instead of ware. A technomancer is pretty much just a decker. Only mages really have their own thing.

As for riggers. Yeah most games don’t ask for much driving. Sucks but most stories are contained enough to not require it.

When I have a rigger in my team I add spots for it to published adventure and make sure to include spots for it in my custom ones.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The Classless system again.

With the very notable exceptions of magic and resonance, there are no capabilities that are reserved solely to certain archetypes.

And you know what that is?  That is half the Archetypes.

If you remove 1) Mystic Adepts, 2) Physical Adepts, 3) Mages, and 4) Technomancers:
You are left with 1) Faces, 2) Street Sams, 3) Deckers, and 4) Riggers.

Half the archetypes are not open to all.  At best that makes Shadowrun a hybrid system, not classless.

Well, my current SRM character is none of the above: a Covert Ops specialist.  So I'd quibble with you.  But I don't think there's any benefit to arguing about what is and isn't an archetype. It's not defined, so it's inherently subjective anyway.  Basically: opinion.

Riggers are the mundanes that actually come closest to getting hallowed turf... you literally cannot perform their signature ability if you're not a rigger.  Or a post-chargen technomancer.

And here is the twenty million nuyen question:

How many times has the signature ability had any bearing on your games?  Honestly.
...

Anecdotally:
I played a rigger in 1e. The campaign was 2 players: me and the GM.  So naturally a had a ton of rigging stuff.  Obviously quite a skewed sample.
2 and 3e: I actually never played.  GM'd a drekton tho.  Near as I can recall only one player ever played a rigger, and he had personality clashes with the rest of the players and didn't last long.  So again: not a great sample.
4e: I had my chicken little phase about SR and gave up on it over the sacrilege that was being done to SR at the time. 
5e: Got back into SR a couple years ago via SRM. Probably the closest experience I'm going to have to being more than anecdotal.  Not because I played with so many different people (the same ones over and over really) but because missions can be held as a somewhat objective standard. In chicago my two characters were a Decker (primary) and Rigger (for replays). Despite being my backup character, I've gotten a ton of mileage out of my rigger.  Now granted, the necessity of a soccer mom is often ignored or handwaived in missions writing, and in the case of CMPs where you go to exotic locations riggers are often directly punished by saying "no you can't have brought your vehicles". Yes, that's a steaming pile of suck.  But during play, any and all feelings of "why am I even bothering playing" have in my experience come from the other players throwing high force spirits around rendering drones and even vehicles moot.  Who's going to bother spending a few thousand nuyen on some drones and RCC when you can just throw a force 9 spirit to go scout and if necessary kill everyone inside? For free?

[Ghost Rigger]

Riggers are the mundanes that actually come closest to getting hallowed turf... you literally cannot perform their signature ability if you're not a rigger.  Or a post-chargen technomancer.

Anyone can buy a car and use the Pilot Groundcraft skill. Anyone can buy drones, autosofts and an RCC. The only thing a rigger can do that other archetypes cannot is Jump In, and the benefits of Jumping In don't look too generous this time around. I'm not familiar with earlier editions so I can't use them as comparative points, but I really doubt that 1 point of edge in 6e is going to as impactful as threshold reductions and limit increases in 5e.

Well, my current SRM character is none of the above: a Covert Ops specialist.

You mean a stealth-oriented streetsam.

[adzling]

...I really doubt that 1 point of edge in 6e is going to as impactful as threshold reductions and limit increases in 5e.

It's not. Nowhere near close enough.

This.is.what.oversimplification.hath.wrought.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

A Control Rig feeding you Edge every time you make a vehicle related test IS huge.

[adzling]

re-rolling one die is huge?
adjusting a 4 to a 5 is huge?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

re-rolling one die is huge?
adjusting a 4 to a 5 is huge?

No, but you'll ace many tests without needing to spend that 1 point and it's a great archetype for easily building edge outside of combat.  And IN combat? you know you can count on capping it every round.

[adzling]

that's fine bud does not address the meat of the mechanics question leaving me befuddled how this approaches the level of control a rigger used to have in prior editions and setting lore.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Wait what am I misunderstanding you? Just driving with the rig out of combat or chases etc gets you edge? that actually sounds terrible. I used all my momentum I hop in my car and do doughnuts in the parking lot for a couple turns. Woo hoo my edge is back.