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For Falar's SR5 FAQ Wiki: What metamagics can mystic adepts learn?

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Pap Renvela

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« on: <02-14-16/0323:14> »
From my reading of SG and specifically the Magician's Way, the RAW answer is the metamagics listed under the Undecided Way plus the metamagics under what ever Way they follow. Additionally, if and only if a mystic adept follows the Magician's Way, any non-adept metamagic they meet the perquisite for.

Of course the RAW answer isn't the right answer for everyone...
agree or disagree with the above; discerning minds want to know.

PS this is not a thread about the merits of Ways or whether their cost is appropriate. That can be its own thread.
« Last Edit: <02-14-16/0330:28> by Pap Renvela »

falar

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« Reply #1 on: <02-16-16/0912:32> »
I believe this is the correct Rules as Written and Rules as Intended interpretation.

It makes Mystic Adepts more of a niche things without a lot of investment and I think that's the point of them. You have a lot of freedom, yes, but it takes a lot of investment to be any good in any realm.

Want to go toe to toe with Mages? Gotta get that Magician's Way.
Want to go toe to toe with Adepts? Gotta get those Power Points from Initiation.
Want to be a decent astral scout? Gotta get that Astral Perception power, even if it's only a Qi Focus.

They're a grab bag of stuff and I think Magician's Way keeps that grab-bag element quite nicely.

odd

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« Reply #2 on: <02-16-16/1046:42> »
Where does it say that mystic adepts can't take normal metamagics?  I seem to have missed that when I initiated and I just looked but to no avail.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #3 on: <02-16-16/1055:13> »
Where does it say that mystic adepts can't take normal metamagics?  I seem to have missed that when I initiated and I just looked but to no avail.

What is oft-cited is this statement in SG's Magician's Way: "Unlike their physical counterparts, mystic adepts following this Way have access to all non-adept metamagic abilities for which they meet the prerequisites."

Which, you'll note, is hardly an affirmative statement of "mystic adepts cannot normally take non-adept metamagics."

Of course, why a statement like "mystic adepts can't take non-adept metamagics" wasn't included in the core, if that was the intent, is unknown. The author even said the intent wasn't to prevent MysAds from taking magician metamagics.

So whatever. More editing fails and poor communication. Story of this edition.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #4 on: <02-16-16/1101:10> »
Core has Adept Only Metamagics but not the other way round. They just say that some of them would be pretty useless to them.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #5 on: <02-16-16/1223:29> »
Note also that the quotes statement from the Magician's Way can also be interpreted as a restatement, not a new allowance. As in, "remember, Mystic Adepts can take the magician metamagics too." I'm not looking at the book right now, but if I recall correctly, that part doesn't include wording that indicates it explicitly as "the Magician's Way also gives this ability to Mystic Adepts."

Plus as others have pointed out, the books never specifically indicate that an adept cannot learn metamagics through the arts just like magicians.

falar

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« Reply #6 on: <02-17-16/0931:27> »
Of course, why a statement like "mystic adepts can't take non-adept metamagics" wasn't included in the core, if that was the intent, is unknown. The author even said the intent wasn't to prevent MysAds from taking magician metamagics.
Could you show me where the author says that? That's a solid reference and I'd like to put it on the wiki.

Part of the thrust of this project is to provide sourced reasons for rulings. I can see that there is a lack of clarity on the Magician's Way. A direct reference saying that that is not the intention would trump the lack of clarity. However, as in most things, hearsay is inadmissable.

ZeldaBravo

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« Reply #7 on: <02-17-16/1009:03> »
Where does it say that mystic adepts can't take normal metamagics?  I seem to have missed that when I initiated and I just looked but to no avail.
[/quote

They are mystic adepts.
*I have problems with clarifying my point in English, so sometimes I might sound stupid or rude.*

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #8 on: <02-17-16/1026:44> »
Where does it say that mystic adepts can't take normal metamagics?  I seem to have missed that when I initiated and I just looked but to no avail.

It doesn't say this anywhere. There is no basis beyond people misreading one line in one quality in Street Grimoire. IMHO, these are people who still aren't happy even though their complaints about them to begin with resulted in an overkill increase in Power Point cost (5 is out of line entirely, perhaps an increase MAY have been needed but 4 would have sufficed).

It would just be nice if people realized that no option in any game is inherently "overpowered" on its own. It is only what some may do with it that can become such. Players who do not do such shenanigans should NOT have to suffer because of those who do.
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #9 on: <02-17-16/1049:02> »
Where does it say that mystic adepts can't take normal metamagics?  I seem to have missed that when I initiated and I just looked but to no avail.

They are mystic adepts.
Plain language readings of mechanical terms of art are not persuasive when we're discussing technical writing.

even though their complaints about them to begin with resulted in an overkill increase in Power Point cost (5 is out of line entirely, perhaps an increase MAY have been needed but 4 would have sufficed).

It would just be nice if people realized that no option in any game is inherently "overpowered" on its own. It is only what some may do with it that can become such. Players who do not do such shenanigans should NOT have to suffer because of those who do.
First of all, oh please. Point to where the errata states that PP karma costs were changed because of player complaints.

Second of all, 5 karma each to add largely passive always-on powers onto a full casting and summoning chassis is completely fair. Oh no you used all your chargen karma on great powers? I have no sympathy. because frankly it's the obvious optimal decision and you'd be stupid not to do this. It's not punishing anyone to make the clearly best possible choice have a true cost associated. Even at 5 karma a pop it's a no brainer to max out PP. It was even more of a no brainer at 3 karma. Maybe there's more of a weighing to occur now. And that's ok.
Playability > verisimilitude.

falar

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« Reply #10 on: <02-17-16/1441:29> »
There are only Adept Only metamagics. There are no metamagics that are Mage Only.

For instance, it is fully legitimate for an Adept to take the Quickening Metamagic. There's nothing that prohibits it. It's only useful if you're a Mystic Adept or have the Adept Spell power.

If someone could get me that author reference that this reading was not intended, that'd be AWESOME.

FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #11 on: <02-17-16/1451:53> »
Text in the Magician's Way Descirption, SG 178

Quote
Unlike their physical counterparts, mystic adepts following this Way have access to all non-adept metamagic abilities for which they meet the prerequisites.

My assumption from this, as well as in the opening of the Physical Arts section (156) that adepts can learn Undecided Way metamagics regardless of their Way, is that:

Adepts/Mystic Adepts can only learn Metamagics of a specific Way or the Undecided Way, UNLESS they are a mystic adept that takes the Magician's Way.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #12 on: <02-17-16/1625:01> »
If someone could get me that author reference that this reading was not intended, that'd be AWESOME.
I only heard about it like thirdhand, sorry.
Playability > verisimilitude.

falar

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« Reply #13 on: <02-17-16/1741:45> »
Sad day.

I'm hearing that there is no real consensus on this and no final reference. That's something that I can document in the wiki. Both readings are valid and neither is confirmed as correct.

gradivus

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« Reply #14 on: <02-19-16/1824:28> »
Sad day.

I'm hearing that there is no real consensus on this and no final reference. That's something that I can document in the wiki. Both readings are valid and neither is confirmed as correct.

The appropriate way IMHO would be to quote the Magician's Way sentence and then to note that there is disagreement whether this was intended to limit Mystic Adepts from taking non-adept metamagics otherwise. And of course, no official clarification from Catalyst.
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