[UnLimiTeD]

Well, as per the Headline: Do Adept Ways count as Qualities for calculating the limit?

As far as I seem to remember from the Missions FAQ, Adept Ways are handled like Martial Arts in that they are "not really Qualities", as in, they don't become more expensive during play.
I know Surge and Infection don't count for Qualities, but those are pretty unique and different.

It's never been a problem for me with Priority because where should that Karma come from.

[Crimsondude]

They shouldn't be.

[UnLimiTeD]

Well,

Are Ways supposed to cost double after character creation?
They should be treated the same way as martial arts. Yes they are qualities, but the cost is the same after or during character creation. An adept is allowed to find his Way during the campaign.

I think I got that from this Forum, and he at least says they are Qualities.
I mean, the only case where it does make a difference is with Way of the Burnout, any other Way you could just as easily buy afterwards, saving you Karma as opposed to buying other Qualities then.

[8-bit]

That quote is actually interesting, since one of the writers said that Martial Arts were Qualities. I don't think I've seen anywhere else where anyone considered them part of the Quality Karma Limit.

Anyway, yes, they currently are. That means that they count as 20 (15 for Burnout Way) Karma of your 25 Allowed Karma for Positive Qualities. They shouldn't be, as Crimsondude said, but they are by RAW.

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, that's what I figured.
As for MAs, I suppose you could count the MA as a quality, but the additional maneuvers not. Means it's just 7 either way.
Then again.... Ah *throws hands in the air* I don't know.

[Marcus]

I agree that the quote is interesting though highly problematic, looks like a case of the right hand not paying attention to what the left hand is doing. The Way's Under RaW are vastly overpriced and as result are thoroughly useless. If they were not a quality they would still be over priced, though potentially less useless. Has anyone asked Bull for a ruling on this? I'd be prepared to accept whatever the official campaign decides.

[jim1701]

I agree that the quote is interesting though highly problematic, looks like a case of the right hand not paying attention to what the left hand is doing. The Way's Under RaW are vastly overpriced and as result are thoroughly useless. If they were not a quality they would still be over priced, though potentially less useless. Has anyone asked Bull for a ruling on this? I'd be prepared to accept whatever the official campaign decides.

I strongly disagree with the assertion that Ways are useless as is.  If the way fits your character's build they are extremely useful and worth the cost.  If your choice of powers don't fit within a particular Way and/or the secondary benefits don't appeal to you then of course it will not be as beneficial to select one. 

I can understand not wanting to take a post on the forum as RAW but since said post was by the guy we understand to have written the Ways I am personally confident that that is how it will appear in the errata (eventually.)  YMMV of course.

[Marcus]

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17128.120

The topic is discussed at some length in that thread (around pages 9+), the point being that for 20 Quality points your gonna get on average .75 power points worth of effect (It varies slightly though, the best value was from way of the beast (which was 1.5) but that got errated out). Given that you could simply initiate, and get a whole power point for less I fail to see a redeeming value here. Under RAW if you get it in game it is going to be even worse as its gonna run 40 karma, that's the same cost as a decently level of initiation, probably more then one, each of which under raw is still going to give you a whole power point. Some where around grade 5 initiation (varies depending on what methods your using to lower initiation costs) the math begins to bends the other way, but that's a very long road, so if your in a game that runs into the 500+ Karma I'd accept your point. But baring that I can't see it being worth while.

At 10 quality points they are reasonable. But above that your giving up to much, With the release of Run Faster this has only gotten worse, as we have many more interesting things to do with qualities, which being limited to 25 up and 25 down at creation are a very valuable resource.

[jim1701]

My adept took the (errata'd) Beast Way and got 1 full extra PP and the benefits of a Bear Mentor Spirit.  I also get bonuses to the animal handling skill that I probably won't use.  I also was able to initiate for another PP. 

The Spiritual Way works the same for non-beast mentor spirits.  All the Ways have secondary bonuses besides the PP discounts. 

Like I said before, if a Way fits your build it is well worth the cost.  If it does not fit your build then don't take it.

[Whiskeyjack]

Like I said before, if a Way fits your build it is well worth the cost.  If it does not fit your build then don't take it.

IMO Ways should be things most if not adepts should thematically strive for. But the current mechanics just don't incentivize that.

[jim1701]

Like I said before, if a Way fits your build it is well worth the cost.  If it does not fit your build then don't take it.

IMO Ways should be things most if not adepts should thematically strive for. But the current mechanics just don't incentivize that.

I don't like any mechanic that is something everyone needs (or greatly desires) for every character.  Maybe that is why I like Ways so much.  Beast's Way is a great fit for my current adept but I've done other adept builds where a Way just would not be a benefit.  I'm ok with that. 

[Whiskeyjack]

I just mean that a concept like Ways should not only be appealing to niche builds, or if you take it in a more standard build it provides more cost than benefit.

Kind of like Mentor Spirits. Yes, you are strongly incentivized to take one because you can pretty much always find one that improves your strengths. I don't have a problem with that, I think they give a lot of flavor.

[Lucean]

Spiritual Way is very nice for conjuring mystic adepts, Athlete's Way can give good returns in PP for the physically focused and has a great metamagic.
I really would like to know the initiation benefits for Artisan's Way, as I currently can't decide between going Speaker and Artisan for my third adept

[gradivus]

@20 points I think the Ways are slightly overpriced... and guess what, I still took the Invisible Way with my character...it just fits with what I envisioned him to be. Min/maxing is not the end all of roleplaying.

[Twilight]

The Ways in SR5 are way overpriced.  In SR4 they were likely slightly underpriced but a whole lot closer to the "correct" balance.