[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Okay then how about instead you explain why when commlinks are so utterly, utterly useless for any kind of professional work in an online societ the basic computer to do this stuff costs so much more than a top of the line commlink?

When you go to work, do you work on a computer?  If you do, do you use your smartphone to do the work, or do you use their systems, with all the top-of-the-line programs?

The world of shadowrun has always run roughly parallel with modern technology, just 'smaller and better'; SR1 had earbud and implanted telephones when the world had The Brick, and cyberdecks when the world was trying to reach into the realm of the megabyte computer.  Now we're dealing with civilians able to purchase terabyte systems at their local Best Buy or Fry's, and smartphones that blow away anything our computers could do back in the early 90's.  Hell, if you want a real parallel, the game Pong is a loading-screen game, able to run in its full glory while a game system is putting together that ultra-hi-def first-person shooter.

Don't let SR4's stumble in regards to the computing process keep you thinking that a smartphone, however complex, and with however much crowdsourced and cloudsourced programming it might have - which is what a commlink is - is going to let you shoot, cut, mod, expand, audit, copy, falsify, and plant the same level of stuff that someone with a top-end laptop and power to burn can.

Commlinks are once more where they originally should have been in 4e - firmly in the 'pocket secretary' slot.  You can do a lot, and if you're not a Computer Guy (i.e. decker), they're all you need.  But a pro is going to use the right tool for the job, and bringing a pocketknife to a samurai showdown is going to get you in deep trouble real quick, unless you're incredibly good ...

[Senko]

Thats just it though I'm not asking it to do everything a deck does I'm asking why it CAN'T run a simple firewall program (classed as common) when it has better processing power and device ratig than a deck that costs five times as much when an (also worse) toffee control console (that contains in its description the statement that it has more in common with a comlink than a deck) can. Especially when a few years ago game time comlinks COULD run peograms.

I just can't see any way to justify billions of people not kicking up a fuss when they can no longer use an advanced editing pogram to compile the report for work at home. That's allowing for the increased security and looking at it solely from the internal perspective of that world. I especially can't do it from ours since the computers/orgrams we use at work are all older tech due to reliability and cost issues. I often do stuff at home on my own system that uses the programs I prefer. The problem is if I can't justify it to myself I've no hope of doing it to players.

Again I'm not talking about hacking programs (which I can justify as special hardware hence why they have attack/sleeze values) I'm talking about the common programs that would be useful for the vast working public like browsing, editing etc and yes I know I can do it but i can't see a reason why I can't edit using my edit ARO program instead of the default that comes prepackaged. I especially have a problem with common programs being for HOBBYISTS as well as professionals when the cheapest deck is equivilent to a years LIVING costs for a middle class person and requires a special license to own.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Because you are asking it to do what a deck does.  You're comparing crabapples to watermelons.

At least in my game, any 'simple' program that a commlink can't run is not a simple program.  It's simple for a cyberdeck, yes.  In comparison to each other, and for its own tight personal 'I got a range of a whole fifteen feet before I gotta connect to another wireless device!!' commlink zone, the commlink ratings are, well, kickass.  A Fairlight Blazing Sword!!!(tm) that costs 6,000 is far better than a Radio Schlock PDx2 that costs 150, and man, that FBS user is gonna kick the RSPD all over the place.  But when he faces off against a serious hacker with a cyberdeck, he's going to run into problems.  Because his ratings and his innate firewall is like holding up toilet paper against Mike Tyson - there ain't nothing to stop the thing from coming through, because someone with a machine built for hacking is not gonna even slow down against the kinds of piddly defense programs a frickin' pocket calculator can run.

You continue to insist that an editing program to 'compile the report at home' is by definition advanced.  It really, really isn't.  He can do that with the 'no need to write them down in the book because they're so basic, a caveman can do it' program that the commlink has.  It's like comparing Word (or some version of it) to, say, the sort of video creation and editing setup the guys at Skywalker Ranch or Pixar have.  They have what's an Edit program in SR terms - pretty damn high ones, too.  But you can't run their rendering software on a frickin' IPhone 4.

You also can't run a targeted webcrawling program on an IPhone 4 either, but you can run it (Browse-equivalent) on a laptop (cyberdeck-equivalent) or home machine.  The latter, please note, have in the past been described as 'breadbox' versions of cyberdecks - between 4 and 10 times less expensive, which is going to put them within the reach of your hobbyist.

When you get down to it, though, you're trying to rationalize something that reeeeaaally doesn't require rationalization or defense.  If you want to, and are willing to describe it in metagame terms, you can say, 'the developers backpedaled on their 'smartphones can do everything' stance'.  Or you can simply not bother, realize that in the same game the Speed of an airplane might be the same Speed of a frickin' motorcycle, accept that again you're talking about two totally different things that can't compare, and get on with playing the game.

[RHat]

Better processing power?  Don't be so sure - a commlink doesn't need to be doing near as much with its processing power as a deck or RCC.

[Aranador]

The commlink already has firewall program running on it.  At a rating equal to its device rating no less.  In fact a commlink already has a capability to do everything these 'common' programs can do.  If you look, you will see all of these programs merely improve a capability.  Be it halve a search time or add some dice to a pool.  Or do something that is pointless on a commlink, like give you an alternate cyberdeck layout.

These 'common' programs are there to exploit the extra native processing crunch a deck has, which a commlink does not, and in so doing, enhance a capability.


If I was a cynical man, and heck, I am, so here goes, I would just say you want moar bonuses and feel like convincing everyone that your houserule rules is the way to get em.


Now to be fair, in 4th ed, a commlink effectively was a deck, and decks didn't exist.  But frankly that was a mistake, and that has been removed in 5th ed.  So no one is going to buy into the 'it used to be that way so why not now' argument because they've accepted that it should never have been that way for the sake of the health of the game.

[Michael Chandra]

There's also the fact that the best Decks and RCCs are Rating 5 at chargen, and getting a better one takes a LOT of effort. A Rating 7 commlink is easy to get after chargen. So that RCC is stuck at 6+1=7 Firewall and can run an Autosoft less due to that, the Deck can get 9 max but only when using a program slot and its best attribute for it, and the commlink has 7 even without a program. Meanwhile, the RCC has DP 5+1 max, the Deck would then be at 8 max with another program slot spent, and the commlink has 7 without a second thought. So the Firewall rating isn't a problem here.

[ZeConster]

Okay then how about instead you explain why when commlinks are so utterly, utterly useless for any kind of professional work in an online societ the basic computer to do this stuff costs so much more than a top of the line commlink?

Perhaps you could first explain why you think commlinks are "so utterly, utterly useless for any kind of professional work in an online societ"? For 5k you can get a commlink with Data Processing 6 and Firewall 6. That's a Limit of 6 for actions like Control Device, Disarm Data Bomb, Edit File, Jack Out, Matrix Perception, Matrix Search, and Trace Icon, as well as 6 dice to resist Brute Force, Control Device, Crash Program, Data Spike, Edit File, Format Device, Hack on the Fly, Hide, Reboot Device, Snoop, and Spoof Command. To me, that sounds an awful lot like a commlink can do all the things you'd need to work at the office, while also resisting hacking attempts.

[Whiskeyjack]

Especially when a few years ago game time comlinks COULD run peograms.

Look, don't confuse all the 4e mechanics and 4e's attempt to keep some of the gear culturally-relevant OOC (i.e. making a smartphone a hacking platform) with actual in-setting stuff. The 4e commlink system was such a huge pain even for believability. It's easier to just retcon it away than try to explain why society went from decks to commlinks to solve all their high-end processing needs then went back to decks.

And it does sound like you want commlinks to do everything decks can, mainly because I don't think you've looked in-depth at what a commlink can do at a baseline. Which is, frankly, a lot, and virtually everything that a non-Matrix professional user might need, or even what a professional user might need while away from his work machine.

Now to be fair, in 4th ed, a commlink effectively was a deck, and decks didn't exist.  But frankly that was a mistake, and that has been removed in 5th ed.  So no one is going to buy into the 'it used to be that way so why not now' argument because they've accepted that it should never have been that way for the sake of the health of the game.

Yes this 100%

[SlowDeck]

There's no need to retcon. They provided the basis for why commlinks can no longer do it in Storm Front. Basically, the Matrix protocols themselves changed. People had to write all new programs for the change.

Add in the probability the new programs are simply far too large for commlinks to use effectively and you've got the current situation. Commlinks can still use the old programs from before the change, but they are useless with the current protocols. So, they had to bring back cyberdecks.

[Whiskeyjack]

I haven't read Storm Front. Thanks for the tip, think I'll pick it up and check it out.

[Senko]

Ddont have the time for a detailed reply right now but i didnt have a problem till i saw the line digger command consoles that stated they were more like comlinks than decks and they can run any non attack/sleeze program and I cant see why they can while a commlink cant.

[Michael Chandra]

They can in fact run attack/sleaze programs. But the commlink similarity is mainly that they aren't configured to Attack/Sleaze, while Riggers could really use Sleaze but have to miss out on it. It doesn't mean a commlink can run cyberprograms.

Look at it this way: Can a smartphone run the full version of Photoshop? It can run a basic photoshop app, sure, and fast, but it can't handle a huge program.

[Whiskeyjack]

Ddont have the time for a detailed reply right now but i didnt have a problem till i saw the line digger command consoles that stated they were more like comlinks than decks and they can run any non attack/sleeze program and I cant see why they can while a commlink cant.

Commlinks are also effectively running non-hacking programs, albeit on a lesser level (and less effectively) than actually using the program. Don't read too much crunch into fluff.

That said, Commlink using Edit is like applying an Instagram filter to a photo or writing on a photo in Snapchat or making a list in a Note program. Easy, diceless stuff. Deck using Edit is PhotoShop, airbrushing, or professional video editing or word processing software software. Stuff that requires skill to use effectively, more complex options, and more processing power.

[CanRay]

I was gonna write a reply, about the incredibly in-depth stuff that a blandly-named Edit program can do - you know, whipping up falsified evidence against that judge in six hours or less, altering a SIN so that it doesn't quite jive with 'you', that sort of thing - as compared to 'I put a quick text note on that PDF' that a commlink 'edit' program does, but Csjarrat beat me to it.

Edit's wireless bonus is ninjaing posts. 

[martinchaen]

I have four words for the OP
Danielle de la Mar.

(as others have suggested, read Storm Front)