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Contacts: Official and Interpretive Explanations

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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« on: <04-19-14/0440:20> »
Pulled from their previous thread ...
In my opinion and game-play, contact ratings are those that the contact has for you.  Because of the structure of Missions, this has to be generalized for everyone, but in a standard game, this should be flexible.  A fixer might have a Connections 6, but if he isn't going to go out of his way to shake all the trees for ya, then it's only effectively a 1.  Maybe he doesn't like you - or maybe he likes you just fine (Loyalty 5) but isn't willing to front you to other people (Connections 1).

I have, in the past, had several PCs have the same fixer as a contact, each with their own loyalty/connection ratings.  Worked very well for RP purposes.

So you are saying it would be okay I have Miles Lanier or Lofwyr was a corporate contact at rating C1/L10?

Absolutely.  They won't do anything for you, but they'll sure take your call and go out drinking with you. They might suggest to one of the lowest flunkies they have to help you out in a 'no skin off my nose' situation, but they'll greet you with great greetings any time you manage to get into where-ever it is they are - or, you know, wave aside their bodyguards so that you can get to where they are.

Those are really good perks for a connection 1 rating. 

Taken from page 387 "virtually no social influence; useful only for their knowledge skills." Regarding connection rating 1

5th edition has defined contacts in a thorough manner.

The way you are describing it is under the guise that he PC has Lofwyr at 12/1 (can't start off with a connection higher then rating 6)

Connection determines how powerful and how much influence they have

Loyalty determines how far and how much they will do for you.

Are you trying to say that you're trying to trap me, or are you trying to say that you disagree with me?

Lanier or Lofwyr have (or should have) actual connection ratings in the double digits; no honest doubt about it.  Isn't the real question whether they are willing to use all of that in order to help you?  If all you can do is pick their brains over a beer, then for you that's a Connection 1 contact.  Oh, hey, he'll always go out bowling with you, or the opera if you have tickets, he'll always go to the Sonics game, you can always crash on his (personal, out in Germany or Boston) couch for the night if your girlfriend threw your sorry ass out and you ain't got change for a coffin motel.  That's what good-friends-to-the-end do for each other.  If, however, he isn't going to ask anyone to do anything for you, isn't going to wield any of the clout he actually has, then that's effectively only a 1 for Connections.

i feel where you're going for here, but if someone says they're my best bud for life "loyalty 6" but wont lift a finger to help me when i need it, they are lying about how close a friends we are, and im kidding myself.

Really?  You'd quit your job, drive across the country to bury a body, change your name, and give all your money to your absolutely best friend just for the asking?  If I'm understanding you correctly, that's the kind of thing a 'Loyalty 6' contact would do.  But y'know, I know I would cover my ass and probably cut the guy loose to deal with the crap coming his way, 'cause that's going a little far for even 'BFF' friendship.

Lofwyr may not have the sort of pressures that Lanier has, but both of them have people literally watching their every move, and they have a whole hell of a lot more to lose if they get caught helping your sorry ass out.  'Head of Security Linked To Dirty Rotten Criminal Scum!!  Oversight Committee Meeting To Be Held!!  Lanier Sure To Be Fired - And Then Face Firing Squad!!'  You have a guy who you've known since kindergarten, or who you were roommates with in boarding school or college, or whatever your explanation is.  He is willing to step out of a boardroom meeting to give you his Very Fraggin' Valuable time and the advantage of his 'I Got a 22 in Magic Theory' skills and brain - and you're complaining that he doesn't do more for you because he won't have his corporate security come in with guns blazing to dig you out of trouble, have his personal doctor patch you up, and then give you the key to his penthouse?

Contacts go both ways.  If you want him to do that for you, then you better be willing to bail out of the middle of a run to go chuck a firebomb on a whooole orphanage of cute little dwarf and elf kiddes right in front of the KSAF cameras, shooting the little darlings in gory blood-and-brain-spattering headshots as they run screaming out of the flames.

If you want that level of Connection in your play, then you'd better buy them with that level of Connections.  I'm giving you an explanation of how six different people can have the same person at completely different levels of Loyalty and Connections.  If you don't want to play that way, that's okay - but think about what you're proposing first.

"Dude, I can't do that.  It'd be a media circus - I'd lose fifty billion in contracts."

@ThewyrmOroboros

Can I just get this clear?

Lets say two runners each by the same contact -under your interpretation of the rules- for they're sprawl mayor, one gets him at C6/L1  and the other gets him at C1/L6. For whatever reason they're both in holding cells, they both make they're phonecall to the mayor, for the one who bought him at C1/L6 the conversation goes something like this:

Shadowrunner: "Hey buddy, got a problem, I'm in jail, can you pull a few strings and get me out no questions asked? I can pay you, an I'll owe you a big favour."

Mayor. "No can do bud, to risky, sorry."

Shadowrunner: "Wait, what? I can pay you if you like, I know you do this kind of stuff for other runners!"

Mayor: "Still no." *Hangs up*


The Shadowrunner who bought him at C6/L1 calls:

Shadowrunner: "Hello, my fixer put me in contact with you, I'm in jail, I heard you can get me out for a Fee?"

Mayor: "Correct, I'll make a phonecall, I expect 15k Nuyen to be in my account within the hour"

Shadowrunner "Done."


Soo...how on earth does that make sense?

i see your point, wyrm.
I just think there's some middleground between "You can crash on the couch, but after that you're on your own", and "I am willing to destroy myself to help you"

All I am doing is going by the book definition of contacts.  Once again connection rating determines social influence, knowledge, and clout they have in the 6th world and loyalty rating determines how much, how far, and what they are or what they are not willing to do for a character.

By having a rating one connection rating in each of these contacts, this character severely limits what the contact is able to do for them according to your definition.

As stated by Absols: IE for the Club owner contact for Loki (C1L5)

Loki: Hey, can you get me a meeting with the yakuza  oyabun, hanzo who frequents this establishment and helped you get your club?  I will pay you a large sum of nuyen.  It is life or death and you are the closest thing I have to a friend.   He thinks I killed some of his men but I was not even there, I need to explain it to him.

Alessia: Sorry doll, you're very handsome and I care about you, and I know you need this but I can't do it for you.   I just don't have that pull for you. That's not our relationship.

Next runner: C4L2


Runner: hey toots I need to meet with hanzo and make it snappy.  I am a regular and buy drinks from ya. Hanzo wants my balls because he thinks I killed some of his men and I just wanted a chance to tell him that it was some other Tusker and not me.

Alessia - sure big boy, you came to the right  person. You can use our back room, but it will cost you.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #1 on: <04-19-14/0532:16> »
All right, so here's the issue I see: both Sincereagape and Absols are looking at contacts as two-dimensional 'if you have a high Loyalty, then you would do whatever is actually in your power to assist me.'  Poindexter seems to be thinking somewhat along those lines as well, though he has something of a glimmer as to what I'm on about.  What I'm on about is the fact that what you are buying is what defines your relationship - that instead of looking solely at the numbers, you determine a way to turn the numbers into a Real Relationship.

Loyalty describes the cost of doing business with the guy - whether you have to pay him cashy money for the time of day, or whether he's going to stop everything he's doing, piss off whomever he's with (wife, mistress, a press conference), in order to take your call. 

Connections describe what he's willing to do for you.  Oh, sure, maybe Loyalty 6 means that if he's right there, he's going to step in and take a bullet for you - but that's him, not all the people he knows, or his reputation.

If you buy a guy at a lower contact level than he has, then however readily he takes your call, whatever price break he gives you, then there is only so much he is going to be willing to do for you, for whatever reason.  It isn't up to me to come up with each and every detail of your contacts, or their reasons for not giving you the benefit of absolutely everything they have access to.  President Obama is not going to throw a pardon out to his well-and-truly best friend 'cause the guy committed murder; he'd get frickin' crucified.

Let's take a look at all four examples, how they've been laid out as 'being impossible' and how I would interpret the contact value and how it affects game play.

For whatever reason they're both in holding cells, they both make they're phonecall to the mayor, for the one who bought him at C1/L6 the conversation goes something like this:

Shadowrunner: "Hey buddy, got a problem, I'm in jail, can you pull a few strings and get me out no questions asked? I can pay you, an I'll owe you a big favour."

Mayor. "No can do bud, to risky, sorry."

Shadowrunner: "Wait, what? I can pay you if you like, I know you do this kind of stuff for other runners!"

Mayor: "Still no." *Hangs up*

How I would explain this Connections 1, Loyalty 6 situation:
"John Booth and Alex Lincoln went to boarding school together.  They were on the same teams, they did all the same activities, they roomed together - they were, in fact, inseperable.  As time went on, they went their seperate ways, but while John sunk into criminal activities, Alex got his law degree, entered politics, and became mayor.  Even today, however, John and Alex will get together now and again for a beer, a night of bowling, or just shooting the bull over a Sonics game.  The media have caught them together any number of times, but since Booth hasn't been arrested for anything, he can be at best described as questionable - and Lincoln's spin doctors have used the friendship to keep Lincoln's 'man of the people' shine polished to a gleam."

And NOW Booth wants Lincoln to pull strings to get him out of jail.  If Lincoln does this, he's throwing himself in front of a frickin' bus.  Lincoln's political opponents are going to keep an eye on 'lowlife Booth', and the news that he's in jail is going to put them on the edge of their seat, just drooling over the possibility that Lincoln is going to pull strings.  Even worse, Booth wants to pay him to do this - something that a shadowsnoop is going to be all over, shaking her own trees until 'BofA #126893-916, belonging to Booth, John, deposited 15,000 nuyen to 5/3 #169305-13-561A, belonging to Lincoln, Alex' pops up on her commlink and she can nail Mayor Lincoln to the wall for frickin' bribery, influence peddling, and all the other assorted crap.

In regards to Booth, Lincoln is exposed.  He's best buddies with the guy.  He'll take Booth's calls all day long, right in the middle of a committee meeting, whenever - but if he does anything more than let Booth pick his brains, he's opening himself up for a whole shitstorm, and because Booth's player bought him at that level, Booth-the-Character is both aware of that, and has accepted those limitations on how far his best-buddy-ol'-pal will go for him.

The Shadowrunner who bought him at C6/L1 calls:

Shadowrunner: "Hello, my fixer put me in contact with you, I'm in jail, I heard you can get me out for a Fee?"

Mayor: "Correct, I'll make a phonecall, I expect 15k Nuyen to be in my account within the hour"

Shadowrunner "Done."

Soo...how on earth does that make sense?

Connections 6, Loyalty 1.  "Please hold."

Six hours later, you have a conversation like what's above.  Blake Lively is perhaps known in passing to the mayor, but because there's no open connection between the two (as in 'Loyalty 6, best buddies forever'), the transaction can remain anonymous.  Newsies might report about a suspected criminal posting bail remarkably quickly, or it being remarkable that he was even allowed to do so at all, but that shit happens all the time with anonymous people.  Blake has no known association with the mayor, isn't being watched by the media, and if he gets let go early, there's no reason to suspect.

Blake's player bought this level of contact for just this reason.  Oh, he may have to wait a while, and pay a whole shitload of cash, but you get what you pay for.  Hell, he didn't even vote for this guy for mayor ... but his Fixer had an 'in', so Blake's walking while John's sitting waiting for his orange jumpsuit.


Club owner contact for Loki (C1L5)

Loki: Hey, can you get me a meeting with the yakuza  oyabun, hanzo who frequents this establishment and helped you get your club?  I will pay you a large sum of nuyen.  It is life or death and you are the closest thing I have to a friend.   He thinks I killed some of his men but I was not even there, I need to explain it to him.

Alessia: Sorry doll, you're very handsome and I care about you, and I know you need this but I can't do it for you.   I just don't have that pull for you. That's not our relationship.

Abso-fraggin'-lutely right.  "Babe, you know I like you and I always have time to talk to you, but I ain't about to put my life in your hands, because I'm not sure I believe you.  This guy has his knife at my throat already, and you want me to give him a possible reason to kill not only you, but me too??  Ask me my opinion all you want, but don't get me involved in your shit."

Next runner: C4L2

Runner: hey toots I need to meet with hanzo and make it snappy.  I am a regular and buy drinks from ya. Hanzo wants my balls because he thinks I killed some of his men and I just wanted a chance to tell him that it was some other Tusker and not me.

Alessia - sure big boy, you came to the right  person. You can use our back room, but it will cost you.

Errr ... try, "Watch your fuckin' mouth, dickweed.  How much are you going to pay me to risk my head on this for you??  It better be enough to get me far away from here - and if I do this anyhow, I'll be in there with Hanzo, and I'll cut your throat in a heartbeat if he says he doesn't believe you."

If you guys are locked into 'if you do business with me, then you MUST be willing to give me access to absolutely everything you can do', then yeah, you'd better pick your characters' contacts with the full amount of Connections rating they could possibly bring to bear.  Your contacts, however, are likely to remain primarily numbers - not 'real' flesh-and-blood people with their own lives, concerns, limitations, and requirements.

For me - and for other people who think of things somewhat more flexibly - a Connections rating represents how much the individual is willing to do for me, not the absolute limit of how much they could do for me or someone like me, while a Loyalty rating says how readily (and how cheaply) they're willing to perform the tasks they are willing to perform for me.  It describes less an 'absolute reach' and more a 'what are you willing to do for me' give-and-take relationship that, hey, I can actually work on and improve.

Maybe my L6/C1 contact is Bull McAllister; he'll always give me the time of day, but man, he just doesn't poach in other fixers' territories, and you're already claimed, buddy.  Over time, however, I can persuade him that there are some things he can just move better or give me a better price on, and buy his Connections rating up.  And y'know, I might just happen to give the GM an idea for some 'slice of life' RP for the group, when my 'other' Fixer sends a couple of leg-breakers to 'axe' me to come talk to him about giving business to a rival, and I have to try to explain things in such a way that I can keep 'em both happy.  It makes the two contacts people, not 'my L3/C6 fixer and my L2/C6 fixer'.
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Absols

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« Reply #2 on: <04-19-14/0628:32> »
Quote
  Loyalty describes the cost of doing business with the guy - whether you have to pay him cashy money for the time of day, or whether he's going to stop everything he's doing, piss off whomever he's with (wife, mistress, a press conference), in order to take your call.
 

PG 98-99 Core rulebook. "Loyalty reflects how loyal the contact is to the runner and how much they’ll endure without shattering whatever bond the two have. At Loyalty 1 or 2, the Contact has only a business relationship with the character. Any qualms they have about turning the runner in are tied to profits they may lose if the runner isn’t around, not so much because of any close personal feelings. With a higher Loyalty rating, the Contact has  a stronger and more personal relationship (i.e., friendship) with the character, and is more likely to take some risk or go out of his way to help the character.

PG 386 Core rulebook. "This shows you how much you can trust the contact. This is measured on a scale of 1 to 6. The higher the Loyalty Rating, the more the contact is willing to do for the PC." (emphasis mine)

Quote
  Connections describe what he's willing to do for you.  Oh, sure, maybe Loyalty 6 means that if he's right there, he's going to step in and take a bullet for you - but that's him, not all the people he knows, or his reputation.

PG 98 core rulebook."Connection represents how much reach and influence a Contact has, both within the shadows and in the world at large, to get things done or to make things happen."

PG 386 core rulebook "This measures the contact’s influence, if any, measured on a scale of 1 to 12. The higher the Connection Rating, the more juice the contact has."

Pg 387 core rulebook (Connection Rating Table): (emphasis mine)
1 Virtually no social influence; useful only for their Knowledge skills.
2 Has one or two friends with some Knowledge skills, or some minor social influence.
3 Has a few friends, but not a lot of social influence.
4 Knows several people in a neighborhood; a borough mayor or a gang leader.
5 Knows several people and has a moderate degree of social influence; a city councilman or a low-level executive it a small-to-medium corporation.
6 Known and connected across his state; a city/sprawl mayor or governor, notable fixer, or a mid-level executive in a medium-sized corporation.


It's clear in the rules that the connection rating is supposed to symbolize absolute social influence not subjective social influence or how much social influence they have 'for you'.

The argument that that means the contacts will be less three dimensional is utter nonsense. How three-dimensional a contact is depends entirely on the amount of time and effort the player and/or GM spends fleshing them out. The numbers you decide to put on it makes no difference.

« Last Edit: <04-19-14/1248:46> by Absols »

ZeConster

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« Reply #3 on: <04-19-14/1022:17> »
I'm with Absols on this. Connection is how many strings they can pull, while Loyalty is how much they're willing to pull for you. There's no way that someone with Connection 6 would be willing to "go for the wall for you" while functioning at effective Connection 1.  In your Booth and Lincoln example, the Loyalty rating is not 6: it's somewhere between 3 and 5. If it were actually 6, not only would Lincoln happily endanger his career to save Booth, but since at 4+ Loyalty runs both ways, Booth wouldn't make that exact phone call, precisely because of the dangers you mentioned.

Lobo

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« Reply #4 on: <04-19-14/1058:47> »
Agree with Absols as well.

You can have multiple characters with the same contact who have different Loyalty ratings with that contact, but the Connection Rating doesn't change.

In my PbP game, all 4 players know a fixer named Chapel.  He has a Connection of 4.  There are some characters who have his Loyalty at 1, and others 2, and others 3.

It doesn't change how much he can do for them, but it does change how he interacts with them.  For example, when contacted them via commlink for the run, here are the various communications:

Here are the Loyalty 2:

<<Hello Jack, I have a job opportunity for you. It is a for a friend of mine, so he will be handling the details, but I can vouch for him. If you are interested, please contact me.>>

<<Overkill, nice to see you again. I have some work if you are interested, and I've thought about the young shaman you spoke of the last time we met. I think there is room for her on the team. If you are interested, let me know - and if you can pass the word on to her, see if she is interested as well.>>

The Loyalty 3
 <<Hello Henry, it has been too long. When are you and I going to go out to dinner again? You know what, let's not leave it to chance. Lunch, a week from Thursday, my treat - I'll PM you the details.  In the meantime, I've got some work you might be interested in, if you aren't too busy.>>

The Loyalty 1 is actually the shaman mentioned in the second text - he doesn't even contact her directly, just through her friend.


If they get in a jam, and need a piece of equipment, his fees or his willingness to go out of his way for the Loyalty 3 character will be different from that of the Loyalty 1 character.

To bring it back to the example above, if the two different characters were to go to jail, either he can pull some strings and help, or he can't.  That is dependent on his Connection rating.  Whether he will or he won't is dependent on his Loyalty Rating.




Lobo

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« Reply #5 on: <04-19-14/1231:41> »
If you look at it another way:

Takeo and his younger brother Akira grew up in the Renton area of Seattle.  They both joined the Yakuza at an early age, seeing it as the only possible option for them to make it through the world.  However, while Takeo was a real political and social animal, Akira was much more of a ground pounder.  Through their late teens and early twenties, Takeo rose rapidly through the ranks, while Akira climbed much more slowly.  Unhappy with the state of affairs, Akira began moonlighting with a group of Shadowrunners.  By the time Akira was in his late twenties, Takeo was a high ranking member of the clan.  It was a mutually beneficial arrangement - Akira still received the protection of the clan, and Takeo, through Akira's Shadowrunner friends, gained more deniable assets that could be used to further the clan's needs.  Takeo had met one of Akira's love interests several times, a fellow team member named Shade.

Now, in the above example, Takeo is a Connection 4 or 5 contact, Rating 6 for Akira, and Rating 1 for Shade.

Akira would have spent 10 or 11 karma in Char Gen, while Shade would have spend 5 or 6.

In return, Akira is likely to be on the receiving end of some fairly significant favors/powers of Takeo, but also is on the hook for the same thing.  If Akira asks Takeo for protection, Takeo will provide it, and probably for free.  If Takeo asks Akira to "take care of something", then Akira will probably return the favor (since the Loyalty runs both ways).  It can be used as a plot hook, where perhaps Takeo asks Akira's group to do something, and Akira will forego his usual cut.

Shade, on the other hand, could potentially contact Takeo for favors as well - but he is far less likely to do them for her, or may do it, but will demand payment or favors in return.  Similarly, if Takeo asks Shade to do something, he will not expect it for free, but will offer payment, since theirs is a transactional relationship.

Either way, the amount of development of the contact is completely between the GM and the players - if you don't put effort into it, then no amount of numbers will fix that.

One other thing - the other thing that strikes me as wrong about having Connections be subjective and not absolute is the karma cost.

Take the above example - only add in Tetsuo, a friend of Akira's growing up, who was crippled by a white supremacist group in his late teens and is unable to find a job (due to his poor background and lack of education), and so is living on the streets as a squatter, doing odd jobs. Akira, loyal friend that he is, takes care of him, and sometimes is able to glean information about local affairs.  Tetsuo would be a Connection 1, Loyalty 5 - so cost Akira 6 karma in char gen.

Next, add in Hanzo, another friend of Akira's who was lucky enough to be awakened, and used his magical abilities to get out of the neighborhood, and rise to political power.  Hanzo's "real" Connection rating is 6, and his loyalty to Akira is 5 - but we are going to say that he functions as a Connection of 1 to Akira.  Hanzo still costs Akira 6 karma.

Now  - if Akira wants to crash at Hanzo's house, Hanzo says, sure, no problem, I'll tell security to let you in, you can hang out there as long as you want, enjoy the real food, state of the art entertainment, etc - while if Akira asks Tetsuo the same question, Tetsuo says, sure, no problem, I have an extra packing crate around here somewhere, pull it up next to this garbage can fire, and we can cook whatever we can scrounge up.

And both cost him 6 karma - which is silly.

« Last Edit: <04-19-14/1320:21> by Lobo »

DeathStrobe

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« Reply #6 on: <04-19-14/1326:13> »
I like Wyrm's interpretation. This way you can have some more interesting contacts and don't have to worry about "leveling up" contacts.

TormDK

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« Reply #7 on: <04-19-14/1331:37> »
I'm on Wyrm's boat as well.

It makes the most sense to me, so that NPCs do not become just a get out of trouble free card that players can use.

SMDVogrin

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« Reply #8 on: <04-19-14/1334:10> »
I would say both sides are right on this issue.  Absols, ZeConster and the rest are right - the way Wyrm is describing things is not how it's described in the book.

HOWEVER, Wyrm is describing a system that works, and is internally consistant as he plays it.  It's a small bit of house ruling, but it does make for some interesting twists on contacts.  I _LIKE_ the idea that 2 people can have the same contact, at different connection modifiers.

SlowDeck

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« Reply #9 on: <04-19-14/1356:08> »
I'm going to say I think both Absols and Wyrm are correct. I think Absols is described RAW while Wyrm is describing RAI.
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Tenlaar

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« Reply #10 on: <04-19-14/1403:29> »
I can see the argument for either way, but I have to say that I am on the side of RAW.  Your contacts are supposed to be independent characters with their own lives and professions.

The connections that they have doesn't have a single thing to do with you, all that has to do with you is how many of those connections they are willing to use.
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Eight Bit

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« Reply #11 on: <04-19-14/1425:28> »
Personally I much prefer the method Wyrm is using over a hard set required C/L level. It allows for more organic characters (which is what contacts are supposed to be) and it helps to prevent some of the min/max'ing I have seen in the character build sections.

Xenon

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« Reply #12 on: <04-19-14/1442:57> »
I like the ideas in this thread, however, since this is the rule section of the forum I will go with what the book says.
...and the book is pretty clear that Connections 1 is not/never/ever someone as influential as the Mayor.

The Mayor simply have higher connection rating than Connection 1.
If you wan't an influential contact as the Mayor himself then you have to pay the price of a high connection contact.




How much your contact (any contact, not just the Mayor) is willing to do for you (within his connection limit) is measured by Loyalty.
Asking a contact to do something that is potentially harmful to the contact require a high Loyalty (or possible a lot of money).

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #13 on: <04-19-14/1457:43> »
You can have multiple characters with the same contact who have different Loyalty ratings with that contact, but the Connection Rating doesn't change.

...

It doesn't change how much he can do for them, but it does change how he interacts with them. 

...

To bring it back to the example above, if the two different characters were to go to jail, either he can pull some strings and help, or he can't.  That is dependent on his Connection rating.  Whether he will or he won't is dependent on his Loyalty Rating.

There's no way that someone with Connection 6 would be willing to "go for the wall for you" while functioning at effective Connection 1.  In your Booth and Lincoln example, the Loyalty rating is not 6: it's somewhere between 3 and 5. If it were actually 6, not only would Lincoln happily endanger his career to save Booth, but since at 4+ Loyalty runs both ways, Booth wouldn't make that exact phone call, precisely because of the dangers you mentioned.

I agree with this. I mean, the game is not a perfect simulation of real life, and players need to know (at least generally) what to expect when they invest their finite karma.  It's dangerous if Connection 6 doesn't really mean Connection 6. That's the point of rules - to be able to derive probable outcomes based on the numeric value of qualities that, IRL, are extremely abstract and in many ways unquantifiable. The other method might work in a less rule-heavy system, but it doesn't really work in this one. Contacts are simultaneously their own people with lives, experience, and goals and are also (typically) a tool in the PCs' toolkits (tools that just so happen to be other people, but these people are rarely center stage in the overarching action).

A lot of the issue arises when 2 people have the same contact, whether through shared backstory or as a reward for completing a job. In those cases, yes, I see a Loyalty variation making sense - if you've done jobs for this guy before and pull off another one, sure, you are going to have more Loyalty than your buddy who just started working with this contact. Or if you grew up with him, you might have a better rapport than someone who just met him, even if the new guy is very charismatic. But that doesn't mean the contact's Connection--their pull in relation to outside society--should be changing, just their Loyalty--their willingness to stick their neck out for you.

And contacts are only an easy "get-out-of-jail-free" card if the GM allows it, even if they are high Loyalty and high Connection. Yes that may be a bit railroady/fiat, but if the GM wants to depict a struggle to get out of being pinched, that's that and I don't see that as unfair. Though I do think that the reciprocal Loyalty is not brought up enough. If you have Loyalty 6 with a contact, the player should really feel that. If the guy never answers his phone anymore, the PC should wonder if something bad has happened. I think this is overlooked too often, but Loyalty at least is definitely a two-way street as even in a non-simulationist reading, it doesn't make a lot of sense another way.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Sincereagape

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« Reply #14 on: <04-19-14/1502:15> »
I like the ideas in this thread, however, since this is the rule section of the forum I will go with what the book says.
...and the book is pretty clear that Connections 1 is not/never/ever someone as influential as the Mayor.

The Mayor simply have higher connection rating than Connection 1.
If you wan't an influential contact as the Mayor himself then you have to pay the price of a high connection contact.




How much your contact (any contact, not just the Mayor) is willing to do for you (within his connection limit) is measured by Loyalty.
Asking a contact to do something that is potentially harmful to the contact require a high Loyalty (or possible a lot of money).

Wyrm, I understand/understood your view points on contacts, and it is a creative way of looking at them. But in terms of RAW, Xenon sums up my stance on them.  If a player wants to have a club owner, a police chief, or Harlequin as a contact they have to spend more then a single karma or free point in their connection rating.

As a GM, I am not limited to having a "two-dimensional contact" this way either.

Your view point is a creative way of using contacts but it would fall under a house rule category. 
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