NEWS

How do the NAN countries work?

  • 98 Replies
  • 34198 Views

Wakshaani

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2233
« Reply #45 on: <08-22-13/0211:39> »
MAGIC!


That's literally the only way the original PCC could even exist, let alone be the second-largest economy in the world behind Japan in 2050 and eventually take over southern California, some of central California, and eventually the Ute Nation. Because without magic or a miracle there will not be enough water in New Mexico to sustain Santa Fe, let alone Albuquerque or anything else drawing water from the Rio Grande aquifer by 2050.

Part of teh Rio Gambit, there, was that the Rio Grande had been churning out more water than usual, due to some magical 'refilling' or as a result of teh messed-up weather patterns in the PCC (Mostly in the former Ute lands) ... regardless, the river's a real river again, full of fresh water which is normally in tight supply. Handing it over to the CAS wouldn't have been a big deal had it not been for the fact of... dude. Water. LOTS of it. And it just fell into our lap? Dude. DUDE.

The PCC's been gobbling people and places up for a while now, and is in serious danger of turning into a native *minority* state. That'll cause issues I bet.


Nath

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 587
« Reply #46 on: <08-22-13/1547:03> »
The Megacorps aren't a united front, unless in the face of an existential threat like the bug spirits. Any plan that involves not selling stuff to people fails, because one of them violates the pact and sells to the isolated country. (And meanwhile another of the Megas is selling through backdoor channels as well)
I never saw anything about a joint-corporate operations against bug spirits (Aztechnology actually even withheld information about bugs for several years). Such threat are more nuisance that can be dealt with with enough firepower. As far as canon goes, the actual existential threat that make the corporate court presents a united front are the disruption of Matrix infrastructure (Winternight), destructive market manipulations (Art Dankwalther) and, most important, the defense of the Corporate Court own relevance, as exemplified by the following cases:
Quote
Corporate Download, page 10
> Back in 2045, the Corporate Court finally got aroun to promoting Wuxing from mere multinational to extraterritorial status. At the time, Wuxing had several key port facilities in the Canton Confederation. Some elements of the Canteonese power structre still held a grudge against Wuxing from the old Hong Kong independence days, and refused to acknowledge the corp's new standing. Wuxing demanded that the Court enforce its decree, and within three months the Confederation was reeling from "accidental" port blockages, power outages and food shortages, not to mention increased attacks from freshl armed neighbors. The crisis sparked a power struggle, and te old guard was thrown out. The new regime proved much friendlier to Wuxing and granted it increased privileges along with extraterritoriality.
> HK Kid
Quote
Sixth World Almanac, page 146
Rocked by sanctions from the New European Economic Community and the Corporate Court, the French government was forced to make massive cuts to their welfare and public health programs. [...] Megacorporations began closing down their local branches in response to the economic sanctions. Pressing for the repeal of the Loureau Act and formation of several pro-corp lobbyists, the megas left the French economy in tatters. With the nation facing the worst economic conditions since the Crash of ‘29, President Kervelec partially acceded to the Corporate Court and repealed parts  of the Loureau Act. Eurocorps have begun to reinvest in France again, and formed extra-territorial compounds throughout the country, many clustered around Lille.
The thing is, the AAA know their seat on the Corporate Court is an essential part of their power. The system relies on the existing and emerging corporations willingly submitting to the corporate court judgments in exchange for the guarantee of extraterritoriality around the world. The biggest threat to the Corporate Court would actually be that a number of large corporations manage to negotiate their own extraterritoriality accords with countries without having to recognize the court authority, deprieving them of their relevance.

-- Actually, most of the NAN nations are very pro business. Just pro THEIR businesses, and they generally don't recognize the Business Recognition Accords. So they keep a leash on the megacorps to some extent.
I would find it doubtful that none of the sourcebooks that cover etheir the BRA or the NAN would mention it. Both Corporate Download and Corporate Guide says only "a few nations" haven't signed the BRA, and list Amazonia, Aztlan, Manchuria, Tir na nOg, Tir Tairngire and Yakut. I think if the author bothered to put Manchuria or Yakut on the list, countries that barely existed in SR canon, if at all, at that point, he would have tell if a North American literally next door also was intended to be on the list.
The Publo is the only NAN in SoNA described to some stringent regulations for corporations, but those are not much harsher than the CAS or the Scandinavian countries, so my take is they are compatible with BRA.

farothel

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3859
« Reply #47 on: <08-22-13/1637:39> »
PCC is organised as a corporation and they have Horizon's HQ within their borders, so you can assume they have signed the BRA.
"Magic can turn a frog into a prince. Science can turn a frog into a Ph.D. and you still have the frog you started with." Terry Pratchett
"I will not yield to evil, unless she's cute"

grid_roamer

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #48 on: <08-22-13/1700:12> »

It looks to me like one more step toward some type of Stability in the Shadowrun World.
The PCC's National Corporate structure I mean.

When the corps began splintering/spawning into new corps early in the century the UCAS suggested equal partnership for them in the government. Like a State.....
I guess it allowed some type of National involvement with Matrix development. While pretty much averting much of ecological destruction striking more independent nations/states....

Now the PCC is the model for a Nationalization of  intrests while global development continues.
 Maybe a major Research and development hub for the rest of the world.

Nath

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 587
« Reply #49 on: <08-22-13/1718:04> »
PCC is organised as a corporation and they have Horizon's HQ within their borders, so you can assume they have signed the BRA.
Aztechnology is headquartered in Aztlan, yet Aztlan has still not signed the BRA. So there's a bit of realpolitik in there that muddy things a bit.

The Pueblo Corporate Council itself is... complicated. It's the governement of sovereign state organized as a corporation, per the law of land. It plays by a different of rules. If, say, Wuxing was to disappear or lose its extraterritorial privileges because of a Corporate Court decision, Hong Kong laws would apply again in its headoffice, UCAS law would apply again in its Seattle office, and so on. The Pueblo Corporate Council, even bankrupt, would still be a sovereign nation. If the "Pueblo Corporation" was to petition the corporate court for membership, the court wouldn't have the threat of demotion to keep them in line. Even enforcing an Omega Order would be complicated. On the other hand, the Pueblo have no interest in obtaining extraterritoriality, at least at home: there's no point in ignoring the law of the land when you are the one who make the law and enforce it.

grid_roamer

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #50 on: <08-22-13/1748:00> »
PCC is organised as a corporation and they have Horizon's HQ within their borders, so you can assume they have signed the BRA.
Aztechnology is headquartered in Aztlan, yet Aztlan has still not signed the BRA. So there's a bit of realpolitik in there that muddy things a bit.

The Pueblo Corporate Council itself is... complicated. It's the governement of sovereign state organized as a corporation, per the law of land. It plays by a different of rules. If, say, Wuxing was to disappear or lose its extraterritorial privileges because of a Corporate Court decision, Hong Kong laws would apply again in its headoffice, UCAS law would apply again in its Seattle office, and so on. The Pueblo Corporate Council, even bankrupt, would still be a sovereign nation. If the "Pueblo Corporation" was to petition the corporate court for membership, the court wouldn't have the threat of demotion to keep them in line. Even enforcing an Omega Order would be complicated. On the other hand, the Pueblo have no interest in obtaining extraterritoriality, at least at home: there's no point in ignoring the law of the land when you are the one who make the law and enforce it.

True the PCC may not e looking for extra privilege through the corpoorate courts. but i think the corporations would be looking to  place an interest within a nation strcutured like the PCC. Even though they would be subsidiary within that reigon.
Most corps have the extraterritorality privilege extended to them.
 But a whole nation being accepted as a corporation by, lets say the UCAS. where the influence of corps will diminish once the PCC model takes a seat. Will most likely influence others to do the same.
The existing corporate bodies will want to have a presence in the new member structures.

Wakshaani

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2233
« Reply #51 on: <08-23-13/0000:30> »
The NAN generally haven't signed the BRA for one simple reason: They aren't willing to give up their land. They're willing to let corps operate in their borders, but only under a "Buddy system" where they can invest in a locally-owned corp to a certain level (Usually no more than 49% foreign-owned), and never, ever, get Extra-Territorality. NeoNET is the biggest buddy in this, latching on to the tech geniuses of the PCC and Sioux like mad, but they aren't the only ones doing so.

But the NAN members are absolutely against giving up a single blade of grass to "Anglos".

MadBear

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 198
« Reply #52 on: <08-23-13/0031:51> »
Another thing the original designers failed to account for is economics. Seriously, look at our own history: when corporations/business owners weren't forced to behave by laws, they seriously took advantage of workers. Long hours, child labor, unsafe conditions(to the point where workers were literally chained inside factories and sometimes burned to death in fires). Then Unions came along, and labor laws. No corporation will ever willingly pay wages or benefits they don't have to, no matter what Libertairians say. In 2070s SR do you think there are any Unions? I doubt it, and even then with extraterritoriality they'd simply ignore any labor laws supporting the Union.
I know things are tough in the SR universe, but not nearly as tough on the working class as they should be if there really were all powerful corporations capable of destroying both Unions and labor laws.
Yes, I am a proud member of Teamsters Local 222. I work part time(20 hrs week) tossing packages for UPS and get paid vacation, personal days, sick days, holidays, and FULL medical for myself and the family. And yes, recently UPS tried to take those benefits away, even after making a record $4 BILLION in proffit last year alone. Guess who protected those benefits? My Union. If UPS were part of Ares, do you think the Teamsters Union would still exist? Not for a second!
I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, it's a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, and that enables you to laugh at life's realities.
-Dr Suess

GiraffeShaman

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 789
  • Devourer of Salads
« Reply #53 on: <08-23-13/0137:59> »
Quote
Then Unions came along, and labor laws. No corporation will ever willingly pay wages or benefits they don't have to, no matter what Libertairians say. In 2070s SR do you think there are any Unions? I doubt it, and even then with extraterritoriality they'd simply ignore any labor laws supporting the Union.

That's actually a key feature of the setting, is a lack of unions. The unions and many government services were gutted. The SIN itself is a means of denying government services to a wide portion of the population. The wage slaves indeed do face long work hours, but they are actually sort of the lucky ones. They at least have basic security and SINs. They exchange a lot of freedom for that safety and a semi decent lifestyle. Cameras in your corporate housing are standard.

The Corps in the setting aren't really the same as the corporations we are familiar with. They are oligarchies. It's a dystopia, which means things in the world have gone rotten for the typical person. Try reading the novels "1984" and "A Brave New World." Also the Sprawl trilogy by William Gibson, which is what much of SR's world is based on.

grid_roamer

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #54 on: <08-23-13/0341:52> »
I agree.

The world setting defines a place where a huge resource, mainly the people,  was to be farmed with very little regard for their wellbeing.....

Tzeentch

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 98
« Reply #55 on: <08-23-13/0348:48> »
I would find it doubtful that none of the sourcebooks that cover etheir the BRA or the NAN would mention it. Both Corporate Download and Corporate Guide says only "a few nations" haven't signed the BRA, and list Amazonia, Aztlan, Manchuria, Tir na nOg, Tir Tairngire and Yakut. I think if the author bothered to put Manchuria or Yakut on the list, countries that barely existed in SR canon, if at all, at that point, he would have tell if a North American literally next door also was intended to be on the list.
The Publo is the only NAN in SoNA described to some stringent regulations for corporations, but those are not much harsher than the CAS or the Scandinavian countries, so my take is they are compatible with BRA.
-- Extraterritoriality doesn't jive with canonical statements about land ownership in the SSC, for example. So it's probably another example of authors forgetting that the NAN even existed (which is surprisingly common). With regard to SONA I was under the impression that the NAN in general didn't recognize the BRA. Which is why I made the comment in SONA, p. 119:

Quote
Back on the home front, the machinations of daily corporate struggle go on. The SSC has traditionally kept a very firm stance towards allowing extraterritorial megacorps in. The problem isn’t the government itself, it’s finding a tribe that’s willing to surrender some of its land. Even if they’re willing to accept the nuyen, most of the tribes enforce strict environmental and safety standards and practices that most megacorps simply aren’t willing to abide by.

-- So I suppose this is an area of canonical doubt :) I know my design intent was "no BRA" but I thought that was a general NAN rule and didn't need to say that outright for each nation. Something to add to me list of "stuff that needs to be clarified or explained in canon." :)

grid_roamer

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #56 on: <08-23-13/0528:51> »
What can be said except the NAN concept is pretty much counter revolutionary to the chaos in SR. It would be easy to go back to making them minor storylines in the plot.

Tzeentch:

Are you a author? Do you write game material?  8)

Wakshaani

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2233
« Reply #57 on: <08-23-13/1227:40> »
There are a couple of writers floating around here.

grid_roamer

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #58 on: <08-23-13/1301:03> »
There are a couple of writers floating around here.

Nice to meet you all.

I am not a writer. ;D

CanRay

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Mr. Johnson
  • ***
  • Posts: 11141
  • Spouter of Random Words
« Reply #59 on: <08-23-13/1425:19> »
There are a couple of writers floating around here.
*Yawn*  'Sup?
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

 

Register