[Zar]

Very fascinating thread.  One of the few where I have taken the time to read every post. 

[lurkeroutthere]

How does the NAN Work? Poorly. I'm torn between adding something and not

For my part i would love to see instead of the next major plot point be driven by what the great dragons and immortal elves are up to this week a over arching story about a rebirth of tribal nationalism in some parts of the nan. That in turn causes them to attempt to get out of the BRA which in turn causes the various corporations and their national puppets to start gearing up for war. It would have to be handled extremely carefully but i could definitely make for some very shadowrun material.

[grid_roamer]

That is the irony of the current 6th world.....

The entire globe is divided into basically individual states with no governing body to unify them. a tribe each.....

The Corporate Court is basicly its own independent tribe with its own intrests as a default  tribal council who happens to have jurisdiction over the hunting, fishing, trade, what have you. In other words the Awakend state of being, a tribe that is....

This leaves the individual tribes/states to more or less take what territory they are allowed(Matrix rights, Astral rights) and fend for themselves. No unified system of governance to speak of.....

[Nath]

-- Extraterritoriality doesn't jive with canonical statements about land ownership in the SSC, for example. So it's probably another example of authors forgetting that the NAN even existed (which is surprisingly common). With regard to SONA I was under the impression that the NAN in general didn't recognize the BRA. Which is why I made the comment in SONA, p. 119:

Back on the home front, the machinations of daily corporate struggle go on. The SSC has traditionally kept a very firm stance towards allowing extraterritorial megacorps in. The problem isn’t the government itself, it’s finding a tribe that’s willing to surrender some of its land. Even if they’re willing to accept the nuyen, most of the tribes enforce strict environmental and safety standards and practices that most megacorps simply aren’t willing to abide by.

-- So I suppose this is an area of canonical doubt I know my design intent was "no BRA" but I thought that was a general NAN rule and didn't need to say that outright for each nation. Something to add to me list of "stuff that needs to be clarified or explained in canon."

I don't remember land ownership in Salish-Shidhe to have been brought up before Shadows of North America, which was published in 2001, three years after Corporate Download, which first introduced the BRA and the A/AA/AAA ratings were introduced.

Before that, all sourcebooks were written on mere assumptions that the corporate extraterritoriality introduced in the corebook and expanded upon in Corporate Shadowfiles more or less applied to all corporations, everywhere (for instance, it wasn't before Runner Havens that it was actually clealry stated Federated-Boeing had extraterritoriality).

The 1st edition NAN sourcebook doesn't mention a lot of corporate presences in the NAN, and says nothing on extraterritoriality when it does. The Pueblo chapter does describe the business license and annual review system, that "make strictly illegal many of the strong-arm tactics that the big corps use freely everywhere else in the world". Which doesn't strictly ban extraterritoriality, but also suggests said big corps can use such tactics in the rest of the NAN.
Except for Aztechnology, and MCT to a lesser degree, the Big Seven/Eight don't show up a lot in the NAN at that time. But this is likely related to the fact the Big Seven/Eight actually didn't exist as a concept before Corporate Shadowfiles. They were just as absent in The Neo-anarchist Guide to North America.

I don't know if Rob Boyle forgot about the True Essence of the NAN when he made up that excerpt of the few countries who didn't ratified the BRA. In my opinion, the definition of the BRA in Corporate Download is actually loose enough to use SoNA as a basis, on the assumption that all the North American countries except Tir Tairngire ratified them. That is, the BRA set a standard as a lowest common denominator. Seattle and the UCAS may be the default setting and the one we're used to, that doesn't necessarily mean extraterritoriality has to be the same everywhere. I hold the CAS and Pueblo to be examples of what the BRA allow when the government kept corporate privileges to the bare minimum the BRA require.

Story-wise, I find extraterritoriality much more handy as a plot device in the NAN, where the local government has reason to pick on the corporations, than in the UCAS, whose government is supposed to be so much more corrupt than even if they didn't have extraterritoriality, the corporations could still get away with anything they'd do.

[Tzeentch]

I don't remember land ownership in Salish-Shidhe to have been brought up before Shadows of North America, which was published in 2001, three years after Corporate Download, which first introduced the BRA and the A/AA/AAA ratings were introduced.

-- I don't recall any specifics of what was intended for SONA. I am under the belief that it was something that would have been in the foreword.

The 1st edition NAN sourcebook doesn't mention a lot of corporate presences in the NAN, and says nothing on extraterritoriality when it does. The Pueblo chapter does describe the business license and annual review system, that "make strictly illegal many of the strong-arm tactics that the big corps use freely everywhere else in the world". Which doesn't strictly ban extraterritoriality, but also suggests said big corps can use such tactics in the rest of the NAN.

-- The perception of the corporations changed over time, as did the NAN. The NAN was basically Findley's baby and I wouldn't be surprised if that entire subject was his domain when the early books were written.

I don't know if Rob Boyle forgot about the True Essence of the NAN when he made up that excerpt of the few countries who didn't ratified the BRA. In my opinion, the definition of the BRA in Corporate Download is actually loose enough to use SoNA as a basis, on the assumption that all the North American countries except Tir Tairngire ratified them. That is, the BRA set a standard as a lowest common denominator. Seattle and the UCAS may be the default setting and the one we're used to, that doesn't necessarily mean extraterritoriality has to be the same everywhere. I hold the CAS and Pueblo to be examples of what the BRA allow when the government kept corporate privileges to the bare minimum the BRA require.

-- Recently there was that dragon from Clutch and his land deals in the SSC that had to go through all sorts of rigamarole to be legal.

Story-wise, I find extraterritoriality much more handy as a plot device in the NAN, where the local government has reason to pick on the corporations, than in the UCAS, whose government is supposed to be so much more corrupt than even if they didn't have extraterritoriality, the corporations could still get away with anything they'd do.

-- I just have a really hard time believing that Howling Coyote and the early STC would give the corps the time of day, much less agree to the anti-sovereignty BRA right after they fought a war caused in no small part BY the extraterritorial corporations.

[Silence]

And remember, when the Ute Nation folded, Aztechnology lost their only major hold in the NAN.  The PCC was right quick about kicking them out, to the point of shutting down the Stuffer Shacks.

[Crimsondude]

-- I just have a really hard time believing that Howling Coyote and the early STC would give the corps the time of day, much less agree to the anti-sovereignty BRA right after they fought a war caused in no small part BY the extraterritorial corporations.

Exactly.

Inferences have to be read in larger context of the setting. The NAN recognizing corporate extraterritoriality short of being forced to at gunpoint strikes me as quite unlikely. And that is what I suppose it took to get extraterritoriality in the NAN states that did recognize it according to Corp Shadowfiles.

[Tzeentch]

Note that even if they don't recognize extraterritoriality the corps still have a lot of clout. In the Sioux (heartland of the NAN), corporations "or their legal designates" can purchase heavy ordnance and even tanks! (NAN1, pp. 99-100) 

[Crimsondude]

Indeed.

And even if they do recognize extraterritoriality, there are plenty of nations that do so with (sometimes severe) caveats.

[Mirikon]

Tir Tairngir and Aztlan being two prime examples of this.

[grid_roamer]

Tir Tairngir and Aztlan being two prime examples of this.

Examples of of choosing not  to recongize the BRA?

[Silence]

Yep. Of course Aztlan is pretty much owned by Aztechnology, and Tir Tirnagre only recently allowed Horizon in.

[Nath]

-- Recently there was that dragon from Clutch and his land deals in the SSC that had to go through all sorts of rigamarole to be legal.

The BRA objet is to give AA and AAA corporations specific rights. It does not apply to dragon and whatever small business they happen to use as a front.

Proteus builds an undersea facility near Vancouver, in the Strait of Georgia (which it not large enough to allow for it to be in international waters). Wuxing is seriously considering Vancouver as an alternative to Seattle for building a new tower. So the Salish-Shidhe doesn't not seem to be very hostile to large corporations.

If anything, a stronger case to be done to claim the Salish-Shidhe may not have signed the BRA, but only negotiate on a case by case basis, would be in Seattle Sourcebook, where it says Federated Boeing had "separate negotiations with the Salish-Shidhe Council" to secure "the company's major plants and facilities, as well as the continued supply of vital aluminum and special airspace privileges." The use of the expression "separate negotiations" clearly mean no other corporation was involved in these. Obviously, it wasn't intended to mean anything regarding the BRA, which were imagined ten years later.

But again, signing the BRA never implied Seattle-like free reign extraterritoriality. CAS, Québec, Switzerland have signed them and enforce stringent rules. In the two latter, the government could establish only a handful of zones for which megacorporations must apply to establish extraterritorial facilities.
It actually seems the BRA enforce specific privileges inside area owned, leased or rent by corporations, but still allow states to restrict what the corporations can buy, lease or rent, as done in the CAS. The Salish-Shidhe could very well fall into that category, being very cautious about who buy lands precisely because once the deal is done and ownership is transfered, BRA-inspired law would kick in.
Based on the list of countries that did not sign the BRA, it seems what keep them out rather is their regulation regarding company ownership, restricting foreign shareholders to remain under 50%.

-- I just have a really hard time believing that Howling Coyote and the early STC would give the corps the time of day, much less agree to the anti-sovereignty BRA right after they fought a war caused in no small part BY the extraterritorial corporations.

Daniel Coleman resigned from the Sovereign Tribal Council in 2037, after the Tsimshian left, as he found himself "unable to maintain the solidarity of the organization he had brought into existence". By the time the Corporate Court put the BRA on the table in 2042, the Ghost Dance War began 28 years ago, the Treaty of Denver was signed 24 years ago. Except for its youngest members, the original generation of Coleman's companions would be on the way out as well, simply because of their age. Besides, the corporations can wait (as exemplified by Tir Tairngire, which they hope would sign the BRA soon by 2072).

And remember, when the Ute Nation folded, Aztechnology lost their only major hold in the NAN.  The PCC was right quick about kicking them out, to the point of shutting down the Stuffer Shacks.

Aztechnology also has a major presence in the Algonkin-Manitou, where the government relied on ACS troops to quell down the elven Manitou uprising.

[grid_roamer]

About the time before the Treaty of Denver.....

The STC were for many years involved in skirmish and terorist actions with elements partially funded by the Corps. Who (the corps) could not be openly incriminated by the UCAS within their borders as an treaty of sorts between them.
You could say there was no avoiding the conflict leading up to the signing of the Treaty of Denver....

[Tzeentch]

The BRA objet is to give AA and AAA corporations specific rights. It does not apply to dragon and whatever small business they happen to use as a front.

-- The point was that extraterritoriality conflicts with what we know of how property is handled, in the SSC at least. SONA, p. 119 is rather vague and could be interpreted either way. Honestly, I don't think it matters too much.

Proteus builds an undersea facility near Vancouver, in the Strait of Georgia (which it not large enough to allow for it to be in international waters). Wuxing is seriously considering Vancouver as an alternative to Seattle for building a new tower. So the Salish-Shidhe doesn't not seem to be very hostile to large corporations.

-- And that's not what SONA claims, at least. Just that most megacorps don't want to abide by their strict environmental and safety standards. Extraterritoriality doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want, as the second your problems escape the "extraterritorial cone" you are liable (Corporate Shadowfiles, p. 22).

If anything, a stronger case to be done to claim the Salish-Shidhe may not have signed the BRA, but only negotiate on a case by case basis, would be in Seattle Sourcebook, where it says Federated Boeing had "separate negotiations with the Salish-Shidhe Council" to secure "the company's major plants and facilities, as well as the continued supply of vital aluminum and special airspace privileges." The use of the expression "separate negotiations" clearly mean no other corporation was involved in these. Obviously, it wasn't intended to mean anything regarding the BRA, which were imagined ten years later.

-- Probably.

But again, signing the BRA never implied Seattle-like free reign extraterritoriality. CAS, Québec, Switzerland have signed them and enforce stringent rules. In the two latter, the government could establish only a handful of zones for which megacorporations must apply to establish extraterritorial facilities.
It actually seems the BRA enforce specific privileges inside area owned, leased or rent by corporations, but still allow states to restrict what the corporations can buy, lease or rent, as done in the CAS. The Salish-Shidhe could very well fall into that category, being very cautious about who buy lands precisely because once the deal is done and ownership is transfered, BRA-inspired law would kick in.
Based on the list of countries that did not sign the BRA, it seems what keep them out rather is their regulation regarding company ownership, restricting foreign shareholders to remain under 50%.

-- Aye, in the limited sense extraterritoriality is just a really aggressive form of private property laws. Maybe in the SSC you have to registered as a tribal band or something, as that would be the closest legal construct for legally independent entities. (Just using the SSC as an example where I know the design intent, heh).

-- I just have a really hard time believing that Howling

]Daniel Coleman resigned from the Sovereign Tribal Council in 2037, after the Tsimshian left, as he found himself "unable to maintain the solidarity of the organization he had brought into existence". By the time the Corporate Court put the BRA on the table in 2042, the Ghost Dance War began 28 years ago, the Treaty of Denver was signed 24 years ago. Except for its youngest members, the original generation of Coleman's companions would be on the way out as well, simply because of their age. Besides, the corporations can wait (as exemplified by Tir Tairngire, which they hope would sign the BRA soon by 2072).

--Most of his companions would only be like in their 40s or 50s. Hardly retirement age for politicians

Aztechnology also has a major presence in the Algonkin-Manitou, where the government relied on ACS troops to quell down the elven Manitou uprising.

-- The lack of any resolution or movement on that plot thread is another problem lol. The last update was in Clutch I think? With Surehand showing up to back the elven separatists for his own aims?