[Maddoux1]

First, my two cents on how Street- and Prime-level character gen affects this discussion.

I can't understand how someone could play a street-level game.  While the concept is appealing to me, because I like the gang-land, more gritty and less moral style of what a street-level game implies, since the only thing that changes is money, that automatically puts awakened characters at a massive advantage.  Even with things like foci and reagents and lodges to spend money on, an awakened character (especially your stereotypical Physical Adept) will always be more comfortable without nuyen than any mundane character who cannot rely on their skills alone.

Not really germaine to the conversation, but I'll address it.  Street level also reduces your Karma given at the beginning of the campaign for qualities, as well as puts a Restriction level on items.  Less Qualities, lower grade ware, less money.  All in all, its a lower powered game.  Exceedingly fun for me.

While I will concede that Awakened Characters are more comfortable without Nuyen, if the GM isn't awarding a fair amount of financial reward he's not running the game properly.  Shadowrunners do this for a living, if they could make more doing a corp job, they would.  High Risk, High Reward is the mantra.

Similarly, the jump to Prime Runner is the same way.  All you're doing it giving everyone more money, so if you designed it to be balanced for Augmented V. Awakened, then Prime Runner would unbalance it.  The creators had to know nuyen is a direct factor of a character's abilities, that's why it's a Priority you need to balance against other actual aspects of your character.  If it didn't matter, everyone would just start with the same flat amount and be comfortable.

You're giving them more Karma, less gear restrictions, and twice as many contacts.

Another issue I personally have with giving the characters more starting wealth would be that, as mundanes and the like are essentially powered by money and moreso, have a cap (as devices and augmentations only go so high).  And it's true that, as with that example with the TM, they'll generally progress quicker compared directly to things they have as reflections (the Samurai and the Physical Adept, the Decker and the TM).

I completely disagree with this "quicker progression" theory.  Nobody has contested my math in my first post, so I have to assume that everyone agrees with it.  It takes a Technomancer 3.3 years to turn themselves into a better Deck than what the Decker will have from finances in a year.  Also in that year, the Decker will improve his skills and attributes.

Mainly though, I think it's a bad choice in general to take a character with a different progression and just try to build them the same way.  Ideally they should be going for different things.  In SR4 Technomancers were specialized and focused, and gained a few completely unique powers through Submersion, while the Hacker had all the programs within reach of him and the ability to contribute much, much more easily to physical combat.  In 5th, TMs are sorely lacking in material until Data Trails is released, so they aren't really good to compare directly to Deckers.  Even if you think they're good now, Data Trails will still undoubtedly change what a TM is capable of.  Also, they can often use their money to buy things like drones and upgrade the shit out of them, so they still have a place to use money to improve themselves.

Absolutely.  Technomancers are not Deckers, and if you try to build them the same, you screw yourself over.  They can buy drones and vehicles, but they have to have the proper Echoes to use them like a Rigger does, and that is also bending them outside of what they're really supposed to do.

I have not played a long-term game.  In fact most of the games I play are, sadly, one-offs and don't go anywhere.  As such I haven't experienced real character progression.  But I felt worried that, whenever I make an Adept (and had players express this as well) that the only thing worth spending Karma on is MAG and Initiation to actually be able to get more abilities, because that is there "main upgrade" like a Street Samurai getting better implants.  If the Adept is capable of spending his nuyen on his "secondary upgrades" like how the Samurai spends his Karma on skills and occasionally an Attribute, then it's not so bad.  Though aside from buying a bitchin' gun and some armor that makes you look like helghast, it's mostly foci to buy, and they still cost Karma.

I would argue that a PhysAd would do well to increase his Attributes like Body, Agility, Reaction, and Strength, as well as his Weapon Skill to their max as well.  More powers are nice, but I'd rather be reliable at everything than focused solely on Magic and Powerz.

That's what my issue is.  Do both archetypes have ways to spend both and also just one to improve themselves?

Not entirely.  This is why I call them Powered by Nuyen and Powered by Karma.  Awakened Characters get everything from one resource, forcing them to spread it thin to become better.  This naturally slows down their progression.

Powered by Nuyen are really hybrids, as Karma goes towards Attributes and Skills while Nuyen goes towards 'ware and tech.  Because they get two resources that improve them, they get a quicker progression.

So, while Awakened Characters have their power font early, their slow progression is a balancing factor against the quicker progression of the mundane.

And most of that money for the Decker has to be divided among advancement, replenishing consumable supplies, keeping lifestyle up and any number of other things. Not to mention that since that Technomancer doesn't need as much money himself, he can probably use that Cash-for-Karma that's been added to the Missions to speed himself up drastically.

Yes, it does.  But, as I mentioned, he can purchase the Deck much quicker than the Technomancer can replicate its effects at the same time as upgrading his own natural ability.

Cash-for-Karma is essentially a "House Rule" for Missions and is not present in the core of the game.  I don't expect to see a lot of GMs using it for their home group.

Or is it like "I gave a bunch of money to charity, and the next day I woke up feeling like I could just go out and just learn the shit out of something, you know?!"

That's essentially it.  It was a rule in 3rd Edition, I believe.  Karma was, well karma.  You put out good things in the Universe and you get good things in return.  Its why you get more Karma for AngelOps.

[All4BigGuns]

Really?  I mean, you're just mysteriously gaining or losing money.  I can see the exchange now.

"Crap, we could really use some money to fireproof our van to carry the hellhounds."  Says the magician.
"I spent my last pay on these guns."  The SS gestures to her assault rifle and sniper rifle.  "...And also on deez guns."  She says, flexing her swanky, newly-enhanced cyber arms.
"Damn.  I really wish I hadn't spend all my money on...  Something..."  The magician responds, and everyone is more than a little confused.

EDIT: I suppose you could just say they spend it on something like stocks or blow it all on internet porn.  And they are just also better than you because why not.

You're just over thinking it and still worrying about it. Just don't worry about it, it's not important.

[firebug]

Alright alright, I'll drop the strangeness of converting cash to Karma and if it comes up in a game I GM, my group can just giggle about the jokes we make.

Maddoux, I didn't mean that I think the TM would progress quicker.  I meant to be agreeing with you.  The Street and Prime levels are relevant I feel though.  The starting Karma adjustment isn't much, and you seem to have missed my point.  "Less Qualities, lower grade ware, less money."  That only hurts the street samurai and other mundanes.  The Adept and Magician still have enough to grab a Mentor spirit, and all the players I have worked with didn't spend their Char-Gen Karma on increasing their magical aspects anyways, so giving them less doesn't make Awakened less powerful.  Same for Prime.  Contacts aren't part of a character's power, at least for this discussion, as they have no direct connection to a character's archetype and they generally aren't considered to be part of an archetype's power.  Unless the Karma increase is enough and you allow Initiation at Char-Gen, being a Prime Runner on the assumption that the Standard Level balanced Nuyen against Karma costs, increasing the quality of gear you can get and giving you more money would lean the power towards those who rely more on it.

[Maddoux1]

Alright alright, I'll drop the strangeness of converting cash to Karma and if it comes up in a game I GM, my group can just giggle about the jokes we make.

If you wish.

Maddoux, I didn't mean that I think the TM would progress quicker.  I meant to be agreeing with you.  The Street and Prime levels are relevant I feel though.  The starting Karma adjustment isn't much, and you seem to have missed my point.  "Less Qualities, lower grade ware, less money."  That only hurts the street samurai and other mundanes.  The Adept and Magician still have enough to grab a Mentor spirit, and all the players I have worked with didn't spend their Char-Gen Karma on increasing their magical aspects anyways, so giving them less doesn't make Awakened less powerful.  Same for Prime.  Contacts aren't part of a character's power, at least for this discussion, as they have no direct connection to a character's archetype and they generally aren't considered to be part of an archetype's power.  Unless the Karma increase is enough and you allow Initiation at Char-Gen, being a Prime Runner on the assumption that the Standard Level balanced Nuyen against Karma costs, increasing the quality of gear you can get and giving you more money would lean the power towards those who rely more on it.

I've always lamented never having enough contacts, but that might just be me.  You always need a reliable StreetDoc, or Talismonger, or Johnson, or Fixer, or any other contact.

Yeah, you can Initiate on Starting Karma.  But, more importantly, Karma also gets you new spells and power points for Mystic Adepts.  While the Street Sam gets less equipment, the Spellslinger has less spells.  To me, that's a big hit.  (Or Complex Forms for Technomancers).

[firebug]

I've always lamented never having enough contacts, but that might just be me.  You always need a reliable StreetDoc, or Talismonger, or Johnson, or Fixer, or any other contact.

Yeah, you can Initiate on Starting Karma.  But, more importantly, Karma also gets you new spells and power points for Mystic Adepts.  While the Street Sam gets less equipment, the Spellslinger has less spells.  To me, that's a big hit.  (Or Complex Forms for Technomancers).

Those contacts are useful for anyone (though the Street Doc less for awakened and the Talismonger not at all for mundane) and so I don't really connect them to archetypes.  Not to sound like I'm discounting contacts in general, but I don't think they have a place in the PbK vs PbN discussion is all.

You say "yeah, you can" like it's written somewhere.  Is it?  I know Bull has been quoted multiple times saying, that you're not intended to be able to submerge or initiate at character creation.  Does it say it's different for Prime Runners, or did you just not know about the forum's generally accepted "offical ruling"?

The lack of Power Points on a Mystic Adept hurt at Street Level, no doubt, but the spells and complex forms are granted alongside your Magic rating in the MAG/RES priority.  On its own, a Mystic Adept with less Karma to spend on bringing up their PP to max at Char-Gen still has nearly everything a magician at their ranking has.  All they miss is Astral Perception (which they have enough Karma to buy if they need it) and projection, which is useful but at Street level shouldn't be something you absolutely need.  In order to properly balance Street level against Standard for PbK characters, you'd need their main Priority (MAG/RES) to also be lowered, like giving them a few less starting spells and such.

[DigitalZombie]

The karma for cash thing could also be explained by buying training sessions. Maybe the technomancer meets a fucked up AI thats willing to spare with him, for a monetary price.
While its true that by your calculations the technomancer will lack behind once the decker gets his new toy. Its worth remembering that the technomancer can upgrade his living persona piece by piece, the decker cant, he would have to wait all those sessions up to the point where he has all, or near all money, to buy that deck.

The technomancer should also have some kind of plan with all that money.

[Maddoux1]

Those contacts are useful for anyone (though the Street Doc less for awakened and the Talismonger not at all for mundane) and so I don't really connect them to archetypes.  Not to sound like I'm discounting contacts in general, but I don't think they have a place in the PbK vs PbN discussion is all.

While they hold no bearing on the PbK or PbN discussion, they're still important in the Street vs Standard vs Prime discussion.

You say "yeah, you can" like it's written somewhere.  Is it?  I know Bull has been quoted multiple times saying, that you're not intended to be able to submerge or initiate at character creation.  Does it say it's different for Prime Runners, or did you just not know about the forum's generally accepted "offical ruling"?

In previous editions it was specifically stated that you could not.  In this one, on pg. 66, the last sentence of the Magic and Resonance Section.  Read as Written, you can.  While I'd prefer that you not be able to, I see nothing that says that it was meant to be Interpreted another way.

The lack of Power Points on a Mystic Adept hurt at Street Level, no doubt, but the spells and complex forms are granted alongside your Magic rating in the MAG/RES priority.  On its own, a Mystic Adept with less Karma to spend on bringing up their PP to max at Char-Gen still has nearly everything a magician at their ranking has.  All they miss is Astral Perception (which they have enough Karma to buy if they need it) and projection, which is useful but at Street level shouldn't be something you absolutely need.  In order to properly balance Street level against Standard for PbK characters, you'd need their main Priority (MAG/RES) to also be lowered, like giving them a few less starting spells and such.

Sure, at Priority A, having 10 spells is nice, or 5 complex forms.  However, two more spells, or three more Complex Forms, is always helpful.

While its true that by your calculations the technomancer will lack behind once the decker gets his new toy. Its worth remembering that the technomancer can upgrade his living persona piece by piece, the decker cant, he would have to wait all those sessions up to the point where he has all, or near all money, to buy that deck.

Absolutely he can.  But I'd also remind you that while he's upgrading his Living Persona piece by piece, the Decker is upgrading his skills and attributes.  Both are getting better.  The Technomancer is getting "better equipment" while the Decker is becoming more competent.

The technomancer should also have some kind of plan with all that money.

Yep.  What I've seen most often is that he's throwing money towards his PbN companions.

[Mäx]

By the way, why are you only comparing mancers to deckers, that hardly gives a full picture on PbK vs PbN.
I hope it's not cos that was the only comparison that you got to swing the way you wanted.

[ZeConster]

My problem with trading Karma for Nuyen, more confusingly Nuyen for Karma, is that...  How the hell do you explain what is happening in-game?

The Missions FAQ lists a nice explanation: you can spend a week of downtime to either Work For The Man ("doing the dirty, sleazy, or simply boring grunt work for a company or corporation") or Work For The People ("going out and doing some pro-bono runner work, helping out at a local soup kitchen, or doing some volunteer work"), with a 2k nuyen <--> 1 Karma ratio, and a maximum of 5 Karma traded away or lost per time.

[Michael Chandra]

And you can't do it again and again between runs, just the once and then you need to do a run again first.

[firebug]

Dang, so my ex-ganger would have to break character to exchange money for karma.  It isn't like karma is actually related to.morality anyways...  You may get less for wet work, but you don't actually get "bad karma".

[Maddoux1]

By the way, why are you only comparing mancers to deckers, that hardly gives a full picture on PbK vs PbN.
I hope it's not cos that was the only comparison that you got to swing the way you wanted.

Nope, its the exact example brought in another thread, so I used it.  What other one would you like to see?

[Maddoux1]

Just ran some Bioware numbers vs. Adept abilities, and there are a few qualifiers that need to be brought up.  Mystic Armor does have the added value of helping protect against mystical assault.  I have also chosen Improved Physical Attribute instead of Attribute Boost to compete with Muscle Toner and Muscle Augmentation, because the bonuses are permanent and have no Drain and are truly the better comparison.  Also, while the PbN character would also have to spend some on Lifestyle and Consumables, so it would take a little longer than what is figured here.  But, we're also dealing with better grades of bioware, so if the time is really necessary, you can reduce it.

I'm assuming Human for the Adept base, with Strength of 1 and Agility of 1.  For the sake of this assessment, I'm assuming that your Initiation is all you need to get the Power Points, and not having to buy your Magic score up.

Orthoskin (Delta grade) to enhance your armor.  It will take roughly 4 sessions to earn the Nuyen (assuming the same Nuyen rate as above example) necessary to get Rating 4 Orthoskin.  To get the same +4 as an Adept, it will take 5 sessions (at the same Karma rate above) to gain Mystic Armor at that rank. 60,000 Nuyen to 29 Karma.  (The StreetSam also gets 29 Karma to improve skills or Attributes.)

Muscle Augmentation (Delta Grade) to bring Strength up by 4 points.  310,000 Nuyen to buy, taking 21 sessions to purchase.  To get the same bonus (assuming a Strength of 1) it will take the Adept 24 Sessions.  At the end of the  21 sessions, the Street Sam could bring their Strength from 1 to 6, the augmentation bringing it to 10.  Compared to the Adept's Strength of 5 (starting at the same 1) buying their Strength up, and getting 4 ranks of Improved Physical Attribute.  (Now, if I was actually wanting a more true comparison, I'd have the character start at 6 and go to Strength of 10, that would take 40 sessions to get that bonus.  Now, if he started at a Strength of 1, like the PbN character, we're looking at 58 Sessions, well over double the number of sessions.)

Muscle Toner (Delta Grade) to do the same thing for Agility takes 22 Sessions for the Street Sam.  We can use the above numbers for the Adept, as it doesn't change.

Once again, we're assuming that the Adept has a Magic Score of 6, with other powers already purchased.  He's gaining these Adept Powers through Initiation, and assuming that these are the first Initiations he gets (and doesn't need to upgrade his Magic Score).

[calaen]

Sorry, made a mistake in my reading.  Haven't had all my coffee yet, ignore this.

But on another note: What powers is that adept starting with?  If his magic is at 6, he has 6 power points to spend, but I'm not seeing his 'starting powers via adeptiness.'

[Mäx]

Muscle Augmentation (Delta Grade) to bring Strength up by 4 points.  310,000 Nuyen to buy, taking 21 sessions to purchase.  To get the same bonus (assuming a Strength of 1) it will take the Adept 24 Sessions.

How are you getting 24 sessions for 4 initiations, thats douple of what i calculate?

And yeah calaen has a good point, adept starts with 6PP worth of powers and builds on top of those, where's ware has to be replaced..