[Michael Chandra]

Let's not forget the rounding up Street Docs, likely because of the use of Nanotech.

http://www.shadowrun.com/2070/2013/05/17/knight-errant-conducts-crackdowns-on-illegal-street-clinics-claiming-public-health-nuisance/

[Mäx]

5E -where certain specialized adept builds benefit from augmentation but it's always a trade off- is overwhelmingly positive.

Your being quite dishonest if you claim this is somehow a change from sr4.
And once again, 4 agility or strenght for 1PP is still a nobrainer, just as it was in SR4.

And for unarmed adept cyber spur is also pretty much a nobrainer now that he can't use adept powers to get damage anymore.

So really augmented adept is even more of a king then he was in SR4.

Edit: And anyway there are lots of way to balance augmented adepts with non augmented adept and most of them wouldn't have required repeatedly kicking the sam in the junk.

[Crunch]

I'm not being dishones in any way Max. Go look at the math and chargen threads and find me any case in which Muscle Toner 4 and Restricted Gear wasn't recommended for an adept build.

On the other hand the math now isn't 1PP for 4 Agi. It's 1 PP AND a high enough resource priority to afford Muscle Toner 2 in addition to the other things you need. At least from the early returns it seems like the equation has changed pretty substantially, and the price hike is part of that change.

[Mäx]

I'm not being dishones in any way Max. Go look at the math and chargen threads and find me any case in which Muscle Toner 4 and Restricted Gear wasn't recommended for an adept build.

How many non combat adepts do you want me to post?
 

[Crunch]

I'm not being dishones in any way Max. Go look at the math and chargen threads and find me any case in which Muscle Toner 4 and Restricted Gear wasn't recommended for an adept build.

How many non combat adepts do you want me to post?
 

Now who's being dishonest? Are you legitimately arguing that Muscle Toner 4 and Restricted Gear wasn't a no brainer in 4E for any adept using those attributes, or are you just making noise for the sake of being loud?

[Mäx]

Now who's being dishonest? Are you legitimately arguing that Muscle Toner 4 and Restricted Gear wasn't a no brainer in 4E for any adept using those attributes, or are you just making noise for the sake of being loud?

No i'm challelling your claim about it somehow changing in SR5.
Muscle toner 3 is still a miles better then 3 levels of improved attribute.

[Crunch]

But the argument in SR5 is no longer whether Muscle Toner 3 is better than Improved Attribute 3, but whether an Adept  build using the resource priority to get muscle toner 3 is better than one that doesn't and instead has better atts, more skills or a higher magic rating or more expensive metatype.

And in SR5 the answer is "what are you trying to do" wheras in 4 it was "yes".

[Emil_Barr]

But the argument in SR5 is no longer whether Muscle Toner 3 is better than Improved Attribute 3, but whether an Adept  build using the resource priority to get muscle toner 3 is better than one that doesn't and instead has better atts, more skills or a higher magic rating or more expensive metatype.

And in SR5 the answer is "what are you trying to do" wheras in 4 it was "yes".

Wouldnt Resource C give you enough money to buy that? Ive never made an adept, so I dont know where their priorities would typically fall.

[Crunch]

But the argument in SR5 is no longer whether Muscle Toner 3 is better than Improved Attribute 3, but whether an Adept  build using the resource priority to get muscle toner 3 is better than one that doesn't and instead has better atts, more skills or a higher magic rating or more expensive metatype.

And in SR5 the answer is "what are you trying to do" wheras in 4 it was "yes".

Wouldnt Resource C give you enough money to buy that? Ive never made an adept, so I dont know where their priorities would typically fall.

Adepts have 3 key priorities to look at in Skills, Attributes and Magic. If you're giving Resources C you're giving up either Skills or Attributes, if you're non human then you're bumping either skills or atts all the way to E by taking the Muscle Toner.

Additionally even at C the Muscle Toner is competing with options like Weapon Foci and Qi Foci which can be really bloody useful for Adepts.

So yeah, you can pick up toner, but in 5E the augmented adept will not always be mechanically superior to the non augmented adept at chargen. In 4E (absent Max's proposed non combat, non infiltration non social adept who would not benefit from agility or charisma in any way) the Augmented adept was always mechanically better. In 4E choosing to not augment was a roleplay choice equivalent to fighting the masked man left handed. 

[calaen]

I'm playing a rigger adept right now.  It was positively painful to build - I had to put resources at B, Magic at C, Attributes at A (I went with the 'he has a lot of talent, but isn't incredibly well trained yet) metatype at D (elf.) and Skills at E.

I ended up dumping most of my karma into covering the weakness in skills, and I'm definitely staring down deficiencies there.  I can't even imagine spending the resources on being an aug as well at this point.  I definitely had other things to spend my money on besides cyber and bioware - the one piece I bought, a control rig, hurt enough.  Gotta remember, the priority system doesn't let you sell back nuyen for karma at character creation - you can't pinch every little build point til it squeaks here, so adepts are likely to have other things they want to dump priority on than resources, and honestly, if I'd just been building an adept?  Any extra resources I -might- have had would likely have been spent on weapon or qi foci.  If I want to play a deadly swordsman, I don't at this point buy muscle toner - I can do that later, if I choose to.  Instead, I buy a rating 3 weapon focus sword so I've got the three extra dice on my attack roll, and, huge advantage here, I've got a viable means to hurt a spirit.

Sooo yeah.  Not inclined to do a lot of augs on an adept at character creation anymore... as it turns out, the 'you can't have everything at the start' encourages your character to grow.  You know, spend some of the nuyen they make over the long term (btw, if you're only making nuyen from run payment, you need to get creative with how your character makes nuyen.  There are lots of independent means to make money in Shadowrun, whether it is stealing cars to take them to a chop shop occasionally, or sending the inconvenient corpse to Tamanous... or even a jewelry heist, you can make money beyond what mister Johnson pays you.) on cyber.  If you want a reason, there you have it.  The reason is to make your characters have to grow - become awesome over time, rather than starting out practically made of metal and wires.

[Carz]

But the argument in SR5 is no longer whether Muscle Toner 3 is better than Improved Attribute 3, but whether an Adept  build using the resource priority to get muscle toner 3 is better than one that doesn't and instead has better atts, more skills or a higher magic rating or more expensive metatype.

And in SR5 the answer is "what are you trying to do" wheras in 4 it was "yes".

To me that seems more a facet of the new priority based character generation process than the items themselves being more or less useful.
Its not that you don't WANT the attributes because they ARE better than spending the magic for them directly. Its that the char gen doesn't ALLOW that as a direct choice. And because you don't get to make a direct choice, you have to weigh in other factors which reduces the amount of builds you see making that choice.

I'd therefore guess that if/when a build point option becomes available, and you CAN make a direct choice without giving up other aspects to do so, then you will be back to a situation of "the answer is always yes".