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Trolls aren't broken, but do seem racist: technical arguments

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Mithlas

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« Reply #165 on: <08-15-13/0052:05> »
There's no need to attack other posters - if you're seeing trolling, just move on, don't stop to feed.

benedictmercury

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« Reply #166 on: <08-15-13/1818:34> »
You're right. Thanks. I always forget in the moment that internet manners call for a different response than live ones.

Shade

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« Reply #167 on: <08-15-13/1836:06> »
The Bell Curve

The notion that all human ethnicities have equal mental genetics is far from solid fact. Controversial though it may be, I find that notion highly suspect. You see intelligence variation in wolves, house dogs, foxes, coyotes, etc. The idea that it wouldn't be the same for humans is politically correct claptrap. That said, only a vile human being would suggest that 'variation' means 'inferior'. Is SR racist against humans because trolls can lift 2-3 times as much weight? Does it racistly imply that humans are all physically anemic, pathetic, bookworms? That's a silly idea. Furthermore, we're only talking about averages here. A smart troll(or genius) will be considerably smarter than the average human on the street, you, me, the other people on this forum...To respond with anger over the very idea of genetic diversity is foolish and indicative NOT of tolerance but of ignorance.
« Last Edit: <08-15-13/1837:40> by Shade »

Mara

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« Reply #168 on: <08-15-13/2036:01> »
You're right. Thanks. I always forget in the moment that internet manners call for a different response than live ones.

Actually, the internet manners are "Report and ignore" while the RL manners are "ignore and walk away."

benedictmercury

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« Reply #169 on: <08-15-13/2052:29> »
Not in my town, they aren't. I am getting why it has to be that way online--a place I pretty much never comment in--but the 'report' element is much too schoolmarmish for me. As for live, I walk away from children and insane people. The rest I'd prefer to deal with directly.

I do find it fascinating that many, many rules of live conversation and public debate can suffer a serious rogering online with little to no forum protest, but getting defensive or calling those rogerings out is a very big no-no. In some other essay I'll have to lament the effects of this reversal on social commerce.

Shade

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« Reply #170 on: <08-15-13/2058:10> »
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In some other essay I'll have to lament the effects of this reversal on social commerce.

I can understand moderators ending flame wars, as Ad Hominems add very little of anything to that commerce. But generally, I agree with your sentiment. Whining pantywaists who default to 'report' anytime someone doesn't agree with them are big problem. Actually, they wouldn't be a problem at all except when, say, facebook, decides to give them credence by caving in.

Crunch

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« Reply #171 on: <08-15-13/2106:20> »
Of course this is a consensual forum with rules that you agree to when you sign up, including a prohibition on personal attacks and - incidentally- political and religious discussion. If you don't like the rules don't sign up.

Shade

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« Reply #172 on: <08-15-13/2114:23> »
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If you don't like the rules don't sign up.
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If you don't agree to follow the rules don't sign up
Fixed!

Crunch

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« Reply #173 on: <08-15-13/2323:13> »
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If you don't like the rules don't sign up.
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If you don't agree to follow the rules don't sign up
Fixed!

Fine, but I'm not sure I see the point of agreeing to follow the rules and then hanging out complaining about it.

Shade

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« Reply #174 on: <08-15-13/2325:34> »
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Fine, but I'm not sure I see the point of agreeing to follow the rules and then hanging out complaining about it.

Err, because I find the trade off of:
Access to other people's ideas and thoughts;exchange of information
For
Putting up with something I don't particularly like

To be a favorable exchange? Also, the forum rules don't say that no one can express dislike for the forum rules...at least I hope they don't!

Crunch

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« Reply #175 on: <08-15-13/2328:45> »
No they don't. Describing people who DO like the forum rules as "whining pantywaists" isn't calculated to generate good feeling though.

Shade

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« Reply #176 on: <08-15-13/2333:17> »
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"whining pantywaists"
I didn't mean to generalize that about anyone who would ever hit a 'report' button ever, anytime, anywhere. Let me clarify:
There is a trend(far beyond the small scope of these forums) for people's 'feelings' to take precedence over open communication, freedom of speech. My 'whining pantywaists' are people who use report on people with whom they disagree in an attempt to silence those people. This is a frequent occurrence in many forums, conventions, etc. It also fosters thin skin and there are many people who cannot differentiate logically deconstructing a position from a personal attack. And those people WILL hit a 'report' button the moment a phrase, say, 'whining panywaists' gets used. I think it's normally pretty clear when open hostility and attacks are getting out of hand. The slightest insult, to my mind, does not remotely qualify.

Crunch

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« Reply #177 on: <08-15-13/2339:01> »
Whatever. I find that generally that sort of belief is held by people who have abused the rules, been punished for it, and created a persecution complex for themselves out of the experience. I don't know you however, so you could genuinely believe that incivility and rudeness fosters a free exchange of ideas. That hasn't been my experience (and I've been known to slug with the worst of them on my off days) but you're entitled to your opinion.

Reaver

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« Reply #178 on: <08-15-13/2357:06> »
I report people. I admit it.

But I report them for the vulgar content meaty middle of most people's discourse.


You want to disagree with me, great! I will argue the merits of a topic back and forth with you all day long as long as A) you don't get insulting and B) keep an open mind...

There are LOTS of people I have had discussions with that get heated.. (all4, Benny, Mirikon, and Mara :D )but as long as thing stay respectful things stay cool.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

benedictmercury

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« Reply #179 on: <08-16-13/0016:14> »
What I can't stand is an Internet forum and its rules of conduct acting as a petri dish for a passive-aggressive argument style--a style that, I suppose, falls under the umbrella definition of 'trolling.'  Mustering an imperfect argument and then finishing it up with what postures as a logical coup de grace, but really is just a chance to call your opponent's stance (or just straight-up your opponent) hypocritical, limited, small-scope, etc. is so enshrined as a stock feature of etiquette that people seem to then extract the substance from such pusillanimous comments and assume the rest was just acceptable style.  It's not only a massive drain on substantive debate, it's a deep offense to the more bitchin brands of gods.  Whose table would you rather fit in at--Wormtongue's or Hrothgar's?  I agree about vulgarity and incivility, but it's a prim and deluded scene that only notices such things when they're dressed in bar clothes.

Meanwhile, Shade, I'd like to think you're not attributing anger about race equality offenses to my argument. I mean, I'm done and I'm likely not going to disabuse you of the mistaken impression if that's what you saw, but still.

I do think the canine analogy is not apt; see earlier bit on breeds. Iffy scales of intelligence and occasional studies designed to describe a pack mammal based on how well they integrate with humans and obey their commands are hardly comparable to the volume of info we have about humanity. And breeds are bred. Microselection. Races? Theyre largely nothing. More genetic differentiation between Serbs and Englishmen than between the Yoruba and Southern American Scots. To begin to identify substantial differences in various mental capacities like you're suggesting would be hands-down grounds to split off different subspecies. You'd need quite a lot of natural breeding selection to get that going, to boot.

As we learn more about the brain? Sure. Possible. Any evidence so far? No.