Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: benedictmercury on <08-07-13/1514:17>
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I've seen some mention here and there of the big Troll questions, with answers falling all along the spectrum. Thought I'd consolidate the argument here and try to pin it down. I trust you regular types to shut me down right quick if I've overlooked a dedicated thread.
I've been prepping some troll NPCs in my game and I've discovered that 1) it's perfectly doable to make competitive troll builds in most categories besides 'tank' as long as your concept embraces the minimum troll burliness; but 2) I can't get comfortable with their intelligence limits.
On the first point:
I built three mages: Troll A/Magic B, and two Human D's, one Magic A/Att B, the other Att A/Magic B. I then aimed at parallel stats for them all (including giving the human mages uncommonly high Body and/or Strength). I assumed max magical Skills wherever possible and spent the Skill Group points on Stealth. I then spent Karma to raise each to match the others' superior stats. The results, with concessions for Troll Mental attribute ceilings, were that to get all three characters to look the same cost almost exactly the same Karma: 103 for the Troll, 96 for Human Mage B, 100 for Human Mage A. They all resulted with
B 6 R 1 A 1 S 5 C 5 (4 for Troll) I 5 L 4 W 6 Mag 6 Edge 5; 10 Spells
Casting, Counterspelling, Ritual Casting, Conjuring, Banishing and Assensing all at 6; Enchanting and Stealth Group at 2
Now of course if you're making a human mage you won't be spending your first year of sessions elevating Body to Olympic Boxer levels, and you probably won't force your Troll Mage to study Ritual Spellcasting out the a$$. This is just to prove that the Troll Mage is not starting out in a major developmental or chargen-resource hole...
Point 2:
...IF we suspend the restriction of only one Racial Attribute max at chargen. And now we're into the racism v. Trolls.
They don't just have lower mental ceilings, they're FORCED to start even below those ceilings. You can't get a Troll out of the gate that is any better than average human intelligence. Best you can do for mage all-roundedness is something like C 3 I 4 L 4 W 6, which any mage will tell you ain't really gonna do it.
Bending your build to include some physical chops at the expense of mastering every single last magical skill is a fair tradeoff to ask a Troll Mage player to make. FORCING them to start with superhuman strength and body (which is where those can't-be-mental-yet starting ATT points will likely go) but only mediocre mental stats--the ones they'll live and die by as a mage--seems too much.
Which brings me to the fact that, though I'm no political correctness junkie, I can't get down with trolls and orks being dumber. If they were totally different races, sure; chimps and orangutans have different mental ceilings. But these creatures start, or at least started, as human. Becoming *meta*human means that you get bigger, but dumber? This isn't the Middle Ages. The Enlightenment happened, which is to say everybody that doesn't utterly suck figured out that reason is the ultimate resource, the ultimate weapon. Declaring that metahuman races have lesser access to reason is declaring that they're subhuman. They're second-class citizens. DNA has declared class stratification is a natural, even good, outcome.
WHY IS ANYBODY OKAY WITH THAT
Lower Charisma I can see with ease; that's a subjective attribute depending on standards of beauty, social elegance, etc. Maaayyybe even Willpower, due to social trauma, or relationship to pain in the body, sumpn. But intellect?
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There's a whole body of Literature scholarship on these types of issues in texts from Lord of the Rings on up, and it's an issue that's unlikely to be solved here.
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Unlike in some systems, though, there's only a lower maximum, not a flat penalty that applies to everyone of that metatype. So while a Troll can have at most Improved Charisma and Superior Intuition, Logic and Agility, they don't need to spend 5 points on Charisma in order to have it at their racial max of 4, just 3.
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What fantasy literature at large does is its business. What a mechanic in a game we play does is very much ours. I'm not freaking out about this, nor am I accusing SR's developers of racism. I'm not out to root out racists and prove myself a hero of sensitivity. I just don't know that the brains mechanic is cool.
In other games, trolls are other organisms. There's a Genus out for the brains problem. But SR trolls are PEOPLE, dudes.
If my initial analysis about reason=equality is correct--and maybe it isn't--then the troll thing is ill.
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But they aren't people. I'm not going for my usual humanis don't shoot until you see the points of their ears gag either. They have massive physiological differences between standard humans or elves, dwarves etc. Think of it like dog breeds, some dog breeds are considered smarter than others but they are all dogs. Trolls are part of humanity but they aren't human just like a poodle isn't a greyhound but they are both dogs.
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In other games, trolls are other organisms. There's a Genus out for the brains problem. But SR trolls are PEOPLE, dudes.
Actually, all five metatypes are "homo sapiens X", which means you basically have 5 subspecies of the homo sapiens species - and since aside from our homo sapiens sapiens, the only other non-Shadowrun subspecies is homo sapiens idaltu from about 160,000 years ago, there's a lot of room for evolutionary differences in there.
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In universe, they actually talk about some of the physiological reasons for this, due to changes in the bone structure of the skull, etc. Boils down to the fact that part of the down side of being big and strong and able to take a lot of punishment means that you don't have the potential to be as smart as others. It is a game balance thing, amongst other reasons.
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Well, those points in physicals can still be useful. You can take more drain before you go down (physical drain that is of course), and you will have a higher defence value, which can be useful in combat. Also a human mage with low physical stats has his spells and not much else, while a Troll has other options if he doesn't want to be known as a mage (punching someone straight into the face for instance, something that wouldn't make a big impression if a S2 human mage would do it). He can also take more punishment if someone decides that 'geek the mage first' is a valuable strategy.
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But trolls are second class citizens. That's why you find so many trolls and orks at the bottom of society. Do you really think these people have great access to education? Hell, it's worse for Orks since they die young. I mean, do you really want to spend half of your life in school or spend your life living it? Society wasn't made for trolls or orks, but they got dealt a hand and no one is willing to rework "civilized" society for them, so they go off and turn to their life of crime.
I don't know...makes sense to me.
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I honestly don't see the issue with portraying a vastly different creature than a modern-day human as less intelligent than a modern-day human.
Trolls (and Orks to a lesser degree) ARE vastly different from humans. They even get entire new organs such as dermal plating and horns, structures that don't exist in human physiology. A different brain development is hardly a stretch, especially since it can be caused in modern-day humans by a vast array of genetic conditions.
Metahumans being "Homo Sapiens X" is mostly a red herring - by modern biology, such a vastly different set of traits as acquired by dwarves, orks and trolls should require sufficient genetic changes to count as an entirely different. But even if we disregard that, that notation points to differences potentially as big as between any subspecies Homo Sapiens - Homo Sapiens Sapiens (modern human) was different from Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis. Maybe even as big as between different species in the genus Homo - since species vs. subspecies is mostly determined by genetic divergence over time.
Oh, and i don't even see Trolls&Orks being portrayed as generally dumb in Shadowrun fiction. They're usually about as smart as your average human, and if they are tuggish or such its a result of poverty or similar circumstances.
Or, in other words "oh, but it's unfair to have the rules state that someone with "Drawback: Down Syndrome*" get's such a penalty to their mental stats". Face it, some people are screwed over by their biology in certain aspects - real-life ethnicity doesn't do that, but being an Ork or Troll in Shadowrun does that to a certain extent.
*Taken because it's most widely known, other examples can be inserted here.
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Agreed on physical stats. I think the troll Mage is cool as hell. A troll occult detective? Fook yes.
I get the game balance origin of the dumbness, but it doesn't erase the institutionalized racism problem. And human teens goblinising into a future of being stupid is too horrific even for a global trauma. In a different setting I could accept race distinctions, but in a modern world where reason, technology and economics reign--a world into which the new 'races' emerged from root human stock--I can't see how a strong, dumb offshoot of humanity is that different from Mandingo field labour that can work twice as long in the sun but can't read so good. 'Bone density' sounds like phrenology to me, besides which it only really works if you consider trolls to be adulterated humans; if they're a separate race entirely, skull density shouldn't limit their mammal brains any more than it does elephants'.
Being homo sapiens humongongus Means they're a subspecies, indeed like Dog breeds--which, for all that dog owners like myself might attest to the contrary, are not scientifically confirmed to have different intelligences. Chihuahuas have been successfully taught German shepherd games to a competitive level.
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Remember though that SR doesn't really HAVE an Intelligence stat. I always think of Logic and Intuition as being aptitiudes for specific skills/tasks and assume the tests are racially biased.
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"Mungo nahtz broke. Mungo doz da brokez on odderz."
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And human teens goblinising into a future of being stupid is too horrific even for a global trauma. In a different setting I could accept race distinctions, but in a modern world where reason, technology and economics reign--a world into which the new 'races' emerged from root human stock--I can't see how a strong, dumb offshoot of humanity is that different from Mandingo field labour that can work twice as long in the sun but can't read so good.
I strongly suggest checking out the Shadowrun novel "Changeling." It's actually about a teenager who goblinizes into a Troll at age15 in the 2050's and what results from that. A great read, one of my all time favorites.
Reason doesn't reign in the SR world. It's a dystopia and inequality is one of the key pillars of the setting. The return of Magic to the worlds is unfair in all sorts of ways. It also rewards random people with Awakened abilities. It turns some people into cannibals and monsters. The economic system is also grossly unfair, and purposely so.
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Doesn't some of the history section actually say that no one has ever proved Orks and Trolls have inferior intellects?
However, given prejudice and perception, would it not be fair to say that Trolls and Orks will have to deal with poorer education and lower expectations of learning... giving them a disadvantage compared to those technical geniuses Dwarfs, the bright Elves and all the normal folk.
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Its a game. if the troll race is tougher and stronger it needs to be balanced with somethign, and dumber is one of the options the devs went with. Its fine. You can still have logic 5 trolls cant you, thats a super smart troll right there, just not genius smart like some very rare humans might be.
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All good and fair points, and I can dig why people roll with it as is. Except one thing: trolls aren't suffering from inequality because the world isn't fair, they're stuck with it because they DESERVE it. They are 2070's scientifically justified noble savage.
2070 is 57 years from now. That long ago was 1956. Can you imagine someone in that year saying 'hey, I got this game, it's in 2013 and you can play this new race that recently developed! They aren't very smart, but MAN can they dunk like crazy! Don't even START me on how they RUN! And it's not weird or anything, because although they vote, pay taxes, own property (well, I mean) and obey laws just like us, THEY ARENT HUMAN, so if they're mostly janitors, fry cooks or pro athletes it's totally cool!'
No. You can't imagine that.
So I'm not supposed to draw analogies between trolls and the African American stock that, even eighty years ago, was alleged by the 'credible' to have been bred stronger but dimmer, just because science fifty years from now (and game mechanics) say that this time it's not racial bias, just hard fact?
I'm not ragging on you all for seeing this the way you do, but I AM surprised that no one else seems too weirded out by it. Maybe everyone else got this out of their systems ages ago.
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Like I said there's a huge body of scholarly discussion about fantasy racism. If you're interested in the topic I suggest reading up on it. Suffice it to say that it's a complicated enough issue that I don't think it will be settled here.
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I can handle Ghoulfodder's suggestion, which would treat starting troll mental stats as having an Availability limit. 'You had shitty nutrition, no education and severe discrimination to hurdle on the way to game start, so Logic 4 max at chargen.'
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That kind of damage can be unrepairable though.
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*Can* be. Sure. *Is Always, Race-wide*? Too gnarly. Game or no game, new race or subspecies offshoot, it's strongly evocative of very, very recent history and set in a world...immediately following recent history. Eugenics and race superiority science are two turns behind us by 2070. Much of the game is about augmentation: being _better_ than human. Two-fifths of the races meanwhile being _worse_ than human, in the category most valued by all of Western history pretty much forever and DEFINITELY since the Enlightenment, is a really bitter resonance to have at the edges when I'm trying to get my 'more than human' fantasy on.
But cool. I'll drop it.
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Hey, they already made it so that Augmented Maximum is Natural Attribute + 4, so you no longer have "oh, you're a Troll? That stat can't be augmented past 6 for you". And honestly, what does that make Humans? Their Strength sucks, their Body sucks, their Charisma sucks, their Agility sucks, their Willpower sucks... The only stats where they are not inferior are the ones where nobody goes past 6 and being lucky. Also, my runner wont go past 2 Logic until he has to do for his Mental Limit, what does that make him? There is nearly no individual of any race dumber than he is.
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All good and fair points, and I can dig why people roll with it as is. Except one thing: trolls aren't suffering from inequality because the world isn't fair, they're stuck with it because they DESERVE it. They are 2070's scientifically justified noble savage.
2070 is 57 years from now. That long ago was 1956. Can you imagine someone in that year saying 'hey, I got this game, it's in 2013 and you can play this new race that recently developed! They aren't very smart, but MAN can they dunk like crazy! Don't even START me on how they RUN! And it's not weird or anything, because although they vote, pay taxes, own property (well, I mean) and obey laws just like us, THEY ARENT HUMAN, so if they're mostly janitors, fry cooks or pro athletes it's totally cool!'
No. You can't imagine that.
So I'm not supposed to draw analogies between trolls and the African American stock that, even eighty years ago, was alleged by the 'credible' to have been bred stronger but dimmer, just because science fifty years from now (and game mechanics) say that this time it's not racial bias, just hard fact?
I'm not ragging on you all for seeing this the way you do, but I AM surprised that no one else seems too weirded out by it. Maybe everyone else got this out of their systems ages ago.
Shadowrun is dystopian, not utopian.
Racism hasn't gone away in SR. There are still groups that hate other groups. As an example, how do you think the NAN feels about the UCAS? They don't like each other, a lot. Racism is actually human nature. People aren't born "color blind." People can see physical tells of differences and attempt to categorize people into us vs them. This is pretty much all of history. I don't think this is right, and I do like to believe that we as humans should be able to look past physical, and societal differences, but I am no fool as to believe that its something that doesn't take decades to teach people to do. And with all the crazy crap that the awakening has brought, it makes sense that people would hunker down and make their small communities and make them more insular.
There are witches, dragons, AI, infected vampires, ghouls, there are ghosts, and nature itself doesn't want you in her anymore, there are bug spirits trying to steal your body, there are a million things trying to kill you, you better believe you're going to fear that 8 foot horned demon with harden skin and make sure he can't rise up against you by make sure he stays in poverty with less education.
And say, there is a troll and he's not a big fan of being a stereotype, so he goes to school and works really hard, and gets a 5 to his logic. That's REALLY smart. You and me, we're probably a 3, but that troll? He's smarter than both of us. Heck, say he's an exceptionally smart troll and gets exceptional attribute logic, now he's a 6 logic troll; who can stand toe to toe with some of the most intelligent academics. This 6 logic troll had all of society working against him, but he defied the odds and is now one of the smartest people of the 6th world. Did it cost him more than the other races? You bet, but he did it. Its possible to defy racism.
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All good and fair points, and I can dig why people roll with it as is. Except one thing: trolls aren't suffering from inequality because the world isn't fair, they're stuck with it because they DESERVE it. They are 2070's scientifically justified noble savage.
2070 is 57 years from now. That long ago was 1956. Can you imagine someone in that year saying 'hey, I got this game, it's in 2013 and you can play this new race that recently developed! They aren't very smart, but MAN can they dunk like crazy! Don't even START me on how they RUN! And it's not weird or anything, because although they vote, pay taxes, own property (well, I mean) and obey laws just like us, THEY ARENT HUMAN, so if they're mostly janitors, fry cooks or pro athletes it's totally cool!'
No. You can't imagine that.
So I'm not supposed to draw analogies between trolls and the African American stock that, even eighty years ago, was alleged by the 'credible' to have been bred stronger but dimmer, just because science fifty years from now (and game mechanics) say that this time it's not racial bias, just hard fact?
I'm not ragging on you all for seeing this the way you do, but I AM surprised that no one else seems too weirded out by it. Maybe everyone else got this out of their systems ages ago.
You're making an elephant out of a zebra here (it's not exactly a molehill, but not an elephant either), really - yes, trolls have a lower maximum on Agility, Logic, Intuition and Charisma, but they can get above-average Agility, Logic and Intuition for no more cost than humans - in fact, they can have one of those at Superior, which is more than most humans will have.
Not to mention that you're confusing race with subspecies: trolls are the result of magic, and evolution-wise, their difference with humans is far greater than the difference between human races - better analogies would be comparing modern humans with neanderthals, or even dog breeds (although those are all of the same species) with each other.
Also, if you're only going to compare maximums with each other, I'd like to point out that a regular human with max Strength will be able to hit you as hard as a light pistol, while a regular troll with max Strength will be able to hit you almost as hard as a shotgun. Give them a katana, and the human will hit about as hard as a heavy pistol, while the troll will hit about as hard as a sniper rifle. In comparison, their intelligence capping out at university degree level isn't so bad.
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There are dog breeds that we KNOW are smarter or dumber and stronger or weaker and so on. That actually is a really nice comparison, even if we're talking about subspecies vs breeds.
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"Mungo nahtz broke. Mungo doz da brokez on odderz."
Nice one CanRay ;D
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Lets talk racial proclivities for a moment. Trolls do not have the same potential intellect as a human. This might not be due to genetics or nutrition. This might be psychological. First of all, even a weak troll is exceptionally strong and durable when compared to an average human - the smallest of trolls can readily match high end human athletes for the purpose of strength and endurance. This means that they may, as humans are wont to do, approach problems with the easiest solution for much of their life - especially the all important developmental years, the effects of which we have increasing evidence to suggest their long term effects on the individual. The easiest solution of course being, use their superior physical capabilities. The result is a troll who has been his own intellectual enemy - he has not had to try (and don't give me the 'but some will anyhow!' Trolls are rare, and people who try to take the hard road equally so. Rare multiplied by rare means you don't find that individual in all but the tiniest percentage of the population.) so, he simply has not developed what might otherwise be an exceptional mind - and do not mistake me when I say it like that; a logic of 5, is in fact, an exceptional mind. Further, being dumber... well, they're not dumber. Humans simply have more room for variation - you can have a well and properly dumb human (In fact, I know plenty of those in the real world,) and they'll equal out to a well and properly dumb troll. Their valleys are the same, it is only in their peaks that they differ. As the reason being the ultimate weapon? A very talented mechanic I know once told me: There is no replacement for displacement. A troll may not have greater potential to be an idiot, but they certainly have greater potential as soldiers, bodyguards, athletes, and, from a certain point of view, an equal potential as a scientist. A human scientist may have a higher peak, but imagine then, if you will, the troll scientist. Perhaps he has a logic of five where the human has a logic of six. The human, after some hours, grows fatigued, they are tired, and they begin to dull. The troll at this time however? They've physical endurance the human does not - they keep functioning at full steam, and get better results in the second half, if you will excuse the turn of phrase. By hour eight of the 12 hour corporate workday, the human is tired enough to make an ever increasing number of errors, but that troll is just getting started - and that is the power of their high body, and no, it isn't willpower - willpower would mean resistance to distractions, etc, and your brain being a part of your body does mean that using it can make you physically tired.
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Sorry--I switched terms in my elephant example, as I suspect many have the accidental habit of doing. I'm not confused about race and subspecies or breed, mostly because these terms, whatever their different street connotations, to biologists are in fact kinda vague and interchangeable (inasmuch as they're micro-distinctions that haven't been pegged down to any great scientific degree yet). Race is somewhat in that vague pile too, except that really it doesn't mean anything at all, other than 'phenotype distinctions within species or subspecies.'
But the terms do have different flavour out of the lab, so let's stick with those. The 'dog breed' example you guys keep using is especially discomfiting. Breeds are just that: artificially accelerated sub-strains of a species selected for particular traits. People find individual expressions of a phenotype that they like and then they breed that trait until they think they've worked back to a genotype, i.e. they've isolated the genetic element that will make the feature they liked appear consistently. And then sure, some breeds can be reliably 'smarter,' or at least better at the few bits of human communication and command-executing that people prize. (I'll note, though, that many beef with this idea, noting that human cooperation is only one of many, many ways to evaluate dog cunning, with some 'breeds' being un-into humans, but capable as all getout at defeating traps, etc).
The best analogy to sapiens would be families. Ones that are dumb, or smart, or fat, etc. and over time tend to mate with their rough match, until the MacEnernies of Cork have had a rep of being belligerent wads forever, and the Nerdenplasts of Rotterdam have always been quick mathematicians. Even allowing for all the other factors, there's probably some genes at work, we all suspect at this point, when you're just a lot like you're great-grandfather: an alcoholic asshole.
But we're not saying trolls are a bunch of magic-strong dimwits that intrabred for a thousand years in secret. We're saying they're a new subspecies. One that erupted out of human stock. Yes?
I'm not arguing that it *can't* make total sense that they have different engineering and factory specs. I'm saying it's gross that they *do,* because 'they're just a whole new kinda thing!' reads false as all hell when they all were human until like 2030.
I see attributes as aptitudes. If trolls have inferior mental aptitudes, they are, in any society where analysis and decision-making are greater tools than bonking heads and growling when it comes to success and upward movement, exactly the kind of mule-citizen that the KKK thought blacks were a century ago.
(And I think you guys have an inflated respect for the correlation between university training and intellect; I know plenty of Yale law guys that are very good at the society game and the weasel game but just dumb as fucking rocks overall).
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Sorry, missed that until after I hit send, Calaen. I like the thought.
Maybe I'm protective of the 'nature' part of the equation being a source of equality. But at this point in the human race's history, we're running with the idea that, if protected from disfiguring circumstances, any given human mind *could* turn out to be a total game-changer. No amount of family history, sociological predictors or anything else can really tell us a kid *can't* be the smartest dude alive. Once we can do that, we're kinda off to the races to subdivide humanity into 'breeds' or further subspecies, aren't we? Isn't a big part of the belief that we're all ultimately the same people about potential? I wish it was about something more compassionate, but if you don't think a people are ultimately as smart as you, you condescend to them. What does this mean for the troll? The sharpest troll CEO is never, ever, ever going to earn respect as an equal from any other kind of sharpest CEO because THEY'RE RIGHT; YOU CAN ONLY EXPECT SO MUCH FROM A TROLL.
Detached from the current story on earth, I'm all with your view. Some aliens come down, they're bright but not quite as, but they're way durable, and bam--we can work with this. As is? Resonates with inequality issues that are so live and omnipresent today, I can't wall them out of my fantasy game.
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I also want to point something out. If you have a troll scientist you want to keep, simply because of his steady rate of error free high end calculations throughout the 12 hour corporate workday (his 5 logic makes those calculations excellent) and he is thus productive, even innovative, simply because can't isn't in his vocabulary? You are nice to him. You are really nice to him, because most runners, they find out their extraction target is not only not happy about leaving, but also a bloody troll, might just say 'this isn't worth the effort' and leave.
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I also want to point something out. If you have a troll scientist you want to keep, simply because of his steady rate of error free high end calculations throughout the 12 hour corporate workday (his 5 logic makes those calculations excellent) and he is thus productive, even innovative, simply because can't isn't in his vocabulary? You are nice to him. You are really nice to him, because most runners, they find out their extraction target is not only not happy about leaving, but also a bloody troll, might just say 'this isn't worth the effort' and leave.
That is the best extraction run ever. Do you kill the Troll? Do you knock him out. If you knock him out, you're going to have a hell of a time dragging him out of the facility with all the alarms going off and security closing in on you. Or you better hope your face can talk the talk and get him to come nicely. I love it.
Anyway, back on topic. benedictmercury you seem to dismiss academics as knowledgeable, which just to be fair, I believe that too. So if we clearly don't think that memorization is in fact not intelligence, what's the problem with a troll having a lower logic? What is it that makes you think Trolls are so dumb? What is intelligence? And why is it that you think trolls aren't intelligent?
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Back off topic: Imagine the party's surprise in the following scenario: You find the scientist's quarters easily, and they're not even locked. Identifying your target proves somewhat more difficult, as you are forced to find the nametag, which is two entire feet higher in the air than you expected it to sit - directly on the chest of what appears to be a physically average troll. He turns to you, and, very articulately says "I'm sorry, can I help you? Whatever it is, please make it quick, I was planning to put in a bit of extra work on my latest project."
Go ahead. Knock him out and try to drag a 500 pound troll through the building. Entertain me.
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"Mungo nahtz broke. Mungo doz da brokez on odderz."
Nice one CanRay ;D
"Mungo tanks yu fer yer supper." Support, Mungo. "Nhopez. Supper, Ey eatedz hiz."
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Troll 5 logic and high body makes for an increadible researcher. He can put some serious hours in without getting tired. A dedicated troll scientist would be able to make some serious break throughs.
Also, sure its been said dozens of times, but trolls are not humans and they are not standins for any other ethnic group. Its just fiction.
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It's not just "fiction," it's fantasy. That seems to be the bit that's being overlooked the most, or, at best, looked at, but through nothing but a very modern, scientific, lens. Orks and trolls and elves and dwarves are just different from humans, period, paragraph, full stop. They live longer or shorter, they're bigger or smaller, they see in the dark or see heat signatures, they gestate children for different periods of time, have different teeth, have horns, all kinds of crazy stuff.
Worrying about it being "racist" for them to also have mental differences, not just immediately obvious physical ones, strikes me as rather hypocritical and, more importantly, largely missing the point of fantasy metahuman races in the first place.
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What does this mean for the troll? The sharpest troll CEO is never, ever, ever going to earn respect as an equal from any other kind of sharpest CEO because THEY'RE RIGHT; YOU CAN ONLY EXPECT SO MUCH FROM A TROLL.
It is one third of a hit difference-wise. Do you really think people are going to discriminate because your Logic is 5 (Superior) instead of 6 (natural max for non-Trolls)? (Not to mention that with magic, you can boost them to 9 versus 10.)
Besides, unlike the mental attributes, that +4 Strength they get is +4 damage on melee and unarmed attacks rather than just +4 dice, making it far more powerful, so if you do piss off that Troll CEO, whether it's during a meeting or during a party, it's easy for him to break your face, wipe the blood off his hands, and continue whatever he was doing.
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Detached from the current story on earth, I'm all with your view. Some aliens come down, they're bright but not quite as, but they're way durable, and bam--we can work with this. As is? Resonates with inequality issues that are so live and omnipresent today, I can't wall them out of my fantasy game.
You must be missing something, then, because Trolls, Orks, and Dwarves are even stranger than aliens. Fantasy racism is guilty of many crimes, such as accusing races of only having one culture, but those crimes are always rooted in the fact that these races are stipulated to have evolved on the planet in parallel with humans. In Shadowrun, metahumanity is a magical process that is thrust onto a human during gestation. Claiming that trolls can't plausibly have a mental disability is like claiming that someone with Down's Syndrome can't plausibly have a mental disability. That's just not the nature of the syndrome being discussed.
Trolls are humans who got "infected". They're not a naturally occurring species, and they certainly don't have their own distinct culture aside from any they manufacture themselves as some sort of group (which, while unlikely, is definitely going to be a fear among conspiracy theorists and racial supremacy groups). It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that trollism impairs your mental development.
That said, I don't think lower caps is the best way to implement such a system. I've only played SR4, and I'm going to start SR5 soon, so maybe they tried this in the past and failed, but I would have given the different metatypes different karma costs for different stats (at least the mental ones), so e.g. logic might be more expensive for a troll, while willpower might be cheaper. That allows for genius trolls as brilliant as any human genius, but much more unlikely. I like playing with the maxima on the physical stats much more than on the mental.
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It'd be a bit of a problem to work that into BP (though that has more leeway BP) and more problem to work it into Priority chargen, but it's an interesting version. Could even add higher caps for the phsyical attributes and different values there as well.
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Trolls are humans who got "infected". They're not a naturally occurring species, and they certainly don't have their own distinct culture aside from any they manufacture themselves as some sort of group (which, while unlikely, is definitely going to be a fear among conspiracy theorists and racial supremacy groups). It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that trollism impairs your mental development.
Not to be pedantic, but the lore explains that trolls, elves, orcs, and dwarves are the result of long dormant metagenes, and they changed as the result of returning magic. They're not infected, they're simply expressing a gene that they weren't able to before.
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On second thought, more expensive attribute costs would be worse than a lower limit, since it penalizes those going for average attributes.
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That's what I've been doing in my game. More expensive reaching the heights; same ceiling for everyone. This is meant to reflect difficulty of circumstances and rarity.
It's the 'dormant gene' thing that sticks in my ass the most. That means they ARE human, just a kind with thick skin and smaller frontal lobes. I see no way around that.
And for the last time, all you folks that want to Star Trek this argument, I agree its perfectly plausible that trolls are dumber, I just think it's just icky and evocative of ugly race history. Logic/Intuition 5 being quite good distracts from the 'pride of ultimate potential' argument, and from the fact that mean troll mental capability would be a not-huge but notable tick down from human average. Outliers in labs aren't going to save millions of trolls from not wInning low-level service jobs because, well, they aren't the best candidates as a people--and not because of their size. And the hand-wave of "it's a Fantasy! It's Not About THAT" is too convenient for my taste. For whomever was throwing the word 'hypocritical' around: Cherry-picking which ugly features of modernity typify your near-future dystopia and which ones don't might better merit the term, bro. Its everybody's prerogative to do that; I don't think you're all racists for keeping mentally limited trolls. But given how near to present the setting is, and how concerned with economic oppression it is, excising racism history from the design of one of that world's Peoples is artificially tidy to me. I find it significantly more problematic and dependent on blinders than it would be to put lower physical ceilings on female characters. Which no one seems to have suggested.
If trolls don't evoke medically confirmed mildly inferior freeman field negroes to you, hey, great, enjoy. It's a minor fix for me to lift the ceiling; just wanted to discuss it.
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Uhm... All I get from that long message is feeling as if you're trying to shame me as subconsciously racist for considering this a fair part of the game.
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That's what I've been doing in my game. More expensive reaching the heights; same ceiling for everyone. This is meant to reflect difficulty of circumstances and rarity.
So rather than "trolls can't be super geniuses, but they can be pretty dang smart for the same cost", you prefer "trolls can be super geniuses too, but every bit of smartness comes harder to them than to others"? Nice.
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Maybe he simply made the extra points, so going past the original cap, cost extra. Still as racist, really, and it changes the game balance.
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Either some slag has been selling these kids rose-tinted mirrorshades, or MOM has seriously stepped up its programs on college campuses.
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Why not take the opportunity to do what the "races" in Shadowrun were sort of designed to do. Which is allow a conversation about race and racism stripped of the real world loading. Run a game where these are the issues your players have to deal with.
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No. Just the sixth point is more expensive. And factored into 'same cost' is that at chargen to be 'dang smart' you have to burn the 'max attribute' allotment. Andd I'm just trying it out. Jeez, dude.
Michael--I'm sorry to have given that impression. I truly don't see anyone that way. But then, someone called my view hypocritical and many insist on confusing my stance with declaring implausibility, so perhaps you'll be willing to construe some of my retort as not directed at you. I'm not implying anyone's racist. Just because I can't see past a thing doesn't mean it can't be seen past without evil. Many here are veering from 'counterpoint' to 'you're uptight and wrong,' though, so if digging my heels in further to riposte reads like a broad accusation, well, take me in context.
And how is it just as racist to make the sixth point harder to reach than saying they're a mentally inferior people?
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The idea that everyone is exactly equal at birth is just feel good propaganda.
Its the old argument nature vs nurture. Twin studies, where both twins grew up in different foster families, have shown that the "smartness" of the child is not really related to the environment.
Metahumans are not Humans. They are another species. Why should they be the same as humans in logic or intuition but not in other attributes? Just because our current cultural ideology wants every cluster of cells in the womb to be exactly the same, doesn't make it true.
Another example, ask a fitness trainer if some people have better dispositions to muscle grow then others. There is even a difference between male and female for humans. The brain is just another body part.
I really struggle to find a reason to think that the brain of every person that is ever born is exactly the same. We all know there are differences in humans brains right from the beginning, handicaps that are heritage.
But the definition of a handicap is just something our culture makes up. You can not really think there is a point were every ones brain is equal and there is another point were you are handicapped. What about cases were doctors can't decide between handicapped or not?
tl:dr Brains are not equal in humans. Why should the brain of another species be equal to it?
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Let's reverse this argument for a second:
Why is it that 2 of the five "races" in shadowrun are physically handicapped? Isn't this racist??? I mean, orks, trolls and dwarves all get way stronger body attributes WITH higher ceilings then normal humans and elves! Isn't this a racist stand point by the developers given the pollutants, viri, and diseases all around in the 6th world????
Wouldn't the "politically correct" thing to do is give ALL the races of shadowrun the same level of potential body, reguardless of physical mass, density, or immune system development???
.....
There are two factors at work in the races and their attributes.
1: destintiveness. Lets face it, when playing a fanasty game (don't care what system) having options other then just plain jane "human" is an appealing factor to some. They like the thought of being something other then human. And, they like that there is a mathematical difference to their choice (stat wise)
2: game balance. While it is wonderful to talk about the "unfairness of X over Y" in relation to the norm, there HAS to a 'balancing' factor put in place. A "minus" for a "plus" so to speak. Yes that means that certain achtypes are not as favorable to all races... But that is what happens all games.... A trade off. For trolls, having increased muscle mass and body means that they have lower mental stats. They trade power and survivability for acedemic and technical ability.
.....
Listen, if you really want to do away with what you see as a mechanic supporting a racist philosophy (nevermind the fact that elves, dwarves, orks, and troll are IMAGINARY) the easiest solution is to state that all players use the 'human' limits as a base. Problem solved! Now no one is better then anyone else at anything and their race just becomes a fluff descriptor. (no issue of having cake and eating it too)
Incidentally, what you are arguing is the same thing that MOM (Mothers of Metahumans) argues: We are all equal and capable of the same potential...... Which (meta game speaking) isn't exactly the case (as you point out!). And that is the issue here.... You are meta-gaming :P
You are looking at a character sheet and just crunching numbers and saying "Hey! This isn't fair!!" without putting it into the context of the world.... Which, when looking at intangibles like "logic" and "reason" is easy to do... After all, what IS the difference between a 4 logic and a 6 logic in-game wise??? Several people (including the OP I believe!) have stated they know many people in professions we assume to need brainpower that are actually morons... (which, in it's self seems to be an error....after all, if it takes smarts to be 'X', then how could they be 'X' if they are dumb?!?!) just how smart is a troll with a logic of 4??? What does that 4 (in SR world) actually mean??? Can they understand quantum physics?? String theory??? Tie their shoes with out making a knot???
Chances are, most trolls will have an intelligence in the range of the vast majority of humans. They will learn, understand and comprehend just as well as everyone else will... But, (by game mechanics) will never win the "world's smartest Meta-human" award (damn dwarves!!) or they may have to spend a little more time and paper trying to solve complex mathimatical questions without a calculator. This doesn't make them retarded... or even stupid... It's just a limitation... Like many of us have... And don't realize.
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One of the great things about RPG systems is tthat once you buy it, it's yours. You can do whatever you want with it. I've ran fantasy campaigns using an altered version of SR rules. Some people have done post apocalypse campaigns using SR rules, sometimes with magic and without. If the Trolls bother you, simply remove them in your games. Most of us want them in there. But I find SR's gun combat and wound system fun on it's own, even with various fantasy elements removed.
If they do exist in the game, there has to be some kind of balancing factor. As is, the game designers already have had problems with balancing Trolls. If you removed Logic penalties, they'd have to make Trolls even less agile or the like, perhaps pushing them into the unplayable category.
One possibility might be some kind of quality that allows a Troll to treat Logic as if they were Human. This would be separate from the already existing Exceptional attribute quality, so a player could take both qualities. The important thing is that they have to pay a price in Karma to make it fair to non Troll players.
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Um.
I think I'll bow out now. Thanks, everyone--okay, some of you--for a useful examination of the topic.
I can't help but find it odd, and a little troubling, that so many people are in such a hurry to defend the plausibility of a hermetically sealed and ahistorical game setting that nevertheless dips freely into recent American and global history...except when it's attractive to ignore major strands of it. Everyone's awfully in a hurry to tell me why the game is immune to the question I posed, and while I find some arguments fair, others are just...well, they could stand some breaths between sentences. And fewer exclamation points. The depth of confidence with which some here have declared 'Nope! Not similar! They're a different SPECIES, bro, so it's not at all weird!' is a little, well, weird. I'm a bit disappointed no one wants to address my points about the game as an artifact situated in, you know, the history of the world we're all actually from. There are resonances that might--might--be picking up between this tidy bubble of a game world and the world we all still live in. Resonances that raise questions about how we interface with our cute lil' bubble of a game world.
But cool. Thanks for considering it. Game balance: FTW.
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Um.
I think I'll bow out now. Thanks, everyone--okay, some of you--for a useful examination of the topic.
I can't help but find it odd, and a little troubling, that so many people are in such a hurry to defend the plausibility of a hermetically sealed and ahistorical game setting that nevertheless dips freely into recent American and global history...except when it's attractive to ignore major strands of it. Everyone's awfully in a hurry to tell me why the game is immune to the question I posed, and while I find some arguments fair, others are just...well, they could stand some breaths between sentences. And fewer exclamation points. The depth of confidence with which some here have declared 'Nope! Not similar! They're a different SPECIES, bro, so it's not at all weird!' is a little, well, weird. I'm a bit disappointed no one wants to address my points about the game as an artifact situated in, you know, the history of the world we're all actually from. There are resonances that might--might--be picking up between this tidy bubble of a game world and the world we all still live in. Resonances that raise questions about how we interface with our cute lil' bubble of a game world.
But cool. Thanks for considering it. Game balance: FTW.
Let's see,
a world where the 1% gets richer, and 99% get poorer? Check and check.
A world where making money trumps the environment? Check and check.
A world where racism is rampant? Yep and yep!
A world where religious and ethnic strife abounds? Yep and yep.
A world where people are treated by the value of their bank accounts? Uh-huh, and yep.
A world where life has no value other then labour? Right and right.
A world with no social justice? True and true.
.
..
...
Should I really continue the list? Or do you see just some of the similarities between the world of SR and our own??
There are many more out there that could be discussed, but "it's a racist thing to make Trolls dumber then humans" isn't really one of them. If trolls where physically the same as humans, then MAYBE that argument would hold water, but they are not physically (or genetically) the same as humans. They are 'removed' from humans by their genetic make up and evolution (magical as it is) as we are removed from the great apes of Africa (which are considered to be our cousins!) I have yet to meet an ape that can learn string theory... Even though they are intelligent (hmm, does that make me racist??) trolls, orcs, dwarves and elves are all genetically different from humans, even though 'human' is the base stock that they came from, just as humans are different from apes, even though we share a common ancestor in our distant past.
I ask you this question, do you find it racist cause its 'only' 60 years in the future? Would you feel more comfortable if the timeline said 300 years? (be honest)
If you want to turn back the clock 60 years, all the way to 1953... Well African Americans were still not allowed to use the same restrooms as "real folk" or go to the same schools. An African American doing anything but manual labor was outrageous! THAT was/is racism.
But saying in meta-game terms "trolls physically and mentally different then humans" is a form of racism??? Nope. That's a 'fact' of their biology. And stating a biological difference is not racism... Especially in meta-game terms.
HOWEVER!
Saying in game "trolls are only good for manual labor cause their are retarded!" is racism! In game, these types of views and attitudes are exactly what keep trolls from being CEOs or scientists... Not their meta-game stats. It is this attitude and opinion that organizations like MOM are trying to fight and change... But they have an uphill battle to be fought IMO... After all, this isn't a case of skin color (trolls and irks are not green BTW, but the same colors as the rest of humanity... Hispanic, Caucasian, African, Asian, Arab, Indian, etc features and skin tones), but the fact that trolls are 10 feet tall, have horns, extremely long arms, and the strength of two grown men and weigh the same as 3 grown men! They ARE different!
Are they related to humans? Sure.
Are they intelligent? Yep
Can they interbreed with humans? To a degree, yes (offspring have a 50/50 chance of being troll, or human.. No hybrids. And troll/troll couplings always result in troll offspring)
At best they are cousins to generic humans. At worse they are genetic throwback/forwards of humans. But they are NOT the same as humans... As evidenced by their extreme height, weight, limited lifespan, extra appendages, extra teeth, different visual spectrums, and knobby epidermis... Just to name a few things.
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Worrying about it being "racist" for them to also have mental differences, not just immediately obvious physical ones, strikes me as rather hypocritical and, more importantly, largely missing the point of fantasy metahuman races in the first place.
It's not really "missing the point," though, given that Shadowrun orks were in the older editions very clearly meant to be a metaphor for black people - and with that in mind, it's strange that in Shadowrun the racists are right. Over time SR has backed off of the metaphor, but kept enough of the vestiges (orxploitation, for example) that it's still noticeable.
If trolls where physically the same as humans, then MAYBE that argument would hold water, but they are not physically (or genetically) the same as humans. They are 'removed' from humans by their genetic make up and evolution (magical as it is) as we are removed from the great apes of Africa (which are considered to be our cousins!) I have yet to meet an ape that can learn string theory... Even though they are intelligent (hmm, does that make me racist??) trolls, orcs, dwarves and elves are all genetically different from humans, even though 'human' is the base stock that they came from, just as humans are different from apes, even though we share a common ancestor in our distant past.
100 years ago, you could replace "trolls" with "[black people]" and a good number of people would agree with you.
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I can't help but find it odd, and a little troubling, that so many people are in such a hurry to defend the plausibility of a hermetically sealed and ahistorical game setting that nevertheless dips freely into recent American and global history...except when it's attractive to ignore major strands of it.
So you find it odd and troubling that when you all but call people racist for taking a game mechanism for granted that you find racist, they'll defend themselves against your accusations? I'm not sure you really understand how people work.
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Actually, Troll/Troll couples don't ALWAYS result in Trolls, they sometimes (rarely) have humans, elves, or dwarves. If the baby is human, there is a better than usual chance for Goblinization later on in life.
So, yeah, when that mean looking Dwarf guy says he is a Troll, it might not mean that he is a mean bugger on the Matrix...
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Actually, Troll/Troll couples don't ALWAYS result in Trolls, they sometimes (rarely) have humans, elves, or dwarves. If the baby is human, there is a better than usual chance for Goblinization later on in life.
So, yeah, when that mean looking Dwarf guy says he is a Troll, it might not mean that he is a mean bugger on the Matrix...
You sure about that CanRay? I was under the impression that most births and UGE/goblinization had normalized (disappeared) by the 2050s....
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Its the old argument nature vs nurture
And the fact that this argument has been around forever might give you an idea why simply declaring to be in possession of the sole truth on a web forum is a bit..well...
Metahumans are not Humans. They are another species.
Then a human and a troll would produce hybrid offspring with hereditary species traits from both.
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Its the old argument nature vs nurture
And the fact that this argument has been around forever might give you an idea why simply declaring to be in possession of the sole truth on a web forum is a bit..well...
Metahumans are not Humans. They are another species.
[/quote]
Then a human and a troll would produce hybrid offspring with hereditary species traits from both.
[/quote]
The problem here is that you are dealing with awakened genes.... And they don't really respond well to general, universal classifications :(
Physically, all the meta variants are both genetically the same, yet different... Unlike 'regular' humans and our 'races' (boy I hate that term, but better wording fails me ATM) with only a 0.0000000001% divergence from same Caucasian to Asian to African to Arab.
A genetist summed it up beautifully though: "there is more genetic diversity in a pack monkeys in the local zoo then there is in the entire human population."
.....
But that statement proves false when dealing with the meta-variants... There is no question that we are related, but we are still widely genetically different from the other meta variants (meaning human to troll to dwarf to elf to Ork)
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Either some slag has been selling these kids rose-tinted mirrorshades, or MOM has seriously stepped up its programs on college campuses.
Pretty sure his mirrorshades are purple-tinted. They love drek like this.
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Mate, I'd spend less time letting adults know how above their conversation you are and more time rummaging around in the code-name bargain bin for something less hackneyed than 'Dragonslayer.'
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Meanwhile, ZeConster, Reaver, etc, I'll reiterate that I really don't mean to accuse the game of intentional racism, or you for being fine with the design. Truly. I myself am not comfortable with the similarity between post-human sUbspecies limits and very recent arguments about inferior races, and I find the act of divesting the two of any association at all to be willful, artificial and, for me, too convenient. I do not want to play in a world that incorporates, yes, so many other real-world inequalities, but enshrines as biological fact one of the core discriminations that *led* to those inequalities. So i change my game, problem solved. I just wanted to know what others thought on the subject, and to argue my point. We can do that without going Red/Blue state. If you feel accused because of your allegiance with a thing I object to, that's up to you. I get your arguments: they're different, it's a fact, and no, observing facts is not racism. How we define in-game facts does or does not have political resonance as a creative act; you say nay, I say yea. Many smart people have argued both sides of the question of whether art can ever be apolitical and dwell in a vacuum, and none were therefore racist because of their stance. If you're catching some tone from me, it's probably just because I've found your argumentative style to be a little condescending, absolutist and dismissive of what I think are sticky, interesting questions.
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The overall premise of the OP is:
"SR stats are racist because they penitalize the cognitive abilities of a minority"
But the premise is flawed due to a small detail: and that is a numerical value for a stat is hard to measure in game world terms.
By that I mean, there is only a rough guideline for what that number represents. Within the rules, it is perfectly possible for ANYONE to have average (3) logic and intuition AND be a top level scientist. He just wouldn't be the Einstein/Bell/Holmes/Edison of his time....
However, once you get into the actual SR world, the way the vast majority of people react to trolls would definately be racist. (which none of us refute)
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Note that only the MAXIMUM is limited, not the actual number. Which has a very insignificant effect on the average. Claiming they always are dumber on top, so applying a penalty as well, would be directly comparable.
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What seems to have emerged is a question of just how human metahumanity is. From there, a further question: if a being isn't fundamentally human, how much equality do we owe them? And finally, what things MAKE us fundamentally human?
A core tenet of Western ethics' answer thus far is that you can't judge anyone by anything but themselves and their deeds. And however dumb, everyone has equally important emotional lives (though that's a recent idea still fighting for ground). These things--potential, and individual emotional sanctity (presuming an equal sentience)--are what lie behind the word 'humanity,' maybe. Nobody worth listening to has ever argued that physical assets amount to superior species status; no one gives a shit about white people being slower than black people, its the inner features that bind us as 'equal.'
Just a stab; I bet we can do better.
So what happens to that, though, if meta humans are so different as to be not 'human'? You could make the argument that a species with lower average logic, intuition and charisma has less sentience than humans. In fact, I'm unclear on the power of the argument AGAINST that assertion. And then...whoa.
My thing about the slavery resonance aside, I find this question fascinating. All the horns and armor are just cosmetic and only assholes would get hung up on them if inner faculties were comparable. If they AREN'T, and if that design isn't racist because they're NOT human...how obligated are we to treat them as equal at all?
Cause killing an elephant or an ape--and the smartest of each are almost without question smarter and more sentient than the dimmest humans (and I don't even mean severe down's syndrome)--is shitty, but only a tiny eco-minded minority would call it 'murder.'
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Mate, I'd spend less time letting adults know how above their conversation you are and more time rummaging around in the code-name bargain bin for something less hackneyed than 'Dragonslayer.'
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Meanwhile, ZeConster, Reaver, etc, I'll reiterate that I really don't mean to accuse the game of intentional racism, or you for being fine with the design. Truly. I myself am not comfortable with the similarity between post-human sUbspecies limits and very recent arguments about inferior races, and I find the act of divesting the two of any association at all to be willful, artificial and, for me, too convenient. I do not want to play in a world that incorporates, yes, so many other real-world inequalities, but enshrines as biological fact one of the core discriminations that *led* to those inequalities. So i change my game, problem solved. I just wanted to know what others thought on the subject, and to argue my point. We can do that without going Red/Blue state. If you feel accused because of your allegiance with a thing I object to, that's up to you. I get your arguments: they're different, it's a fact, and no, observing facts is not racism. How we define in-game facts does or does not have political resonance as a creative act; you say nay, I say yea. Many smart people have argued both sides of the question of whether art can ever be apolitical and dwell in a vacuum, and none were therefore racist because of their stance. If you're catching some tone from me, it's probably just because I've found your argumentative style to be a little condescending, absolutist and dismissive of what I think are sticky, interesting questions.
If you do not like something in the rules, house rule the change. That is your right! I do it all the time for things I find "game balance disturbing" from my table's viewpoint.
Just be careful about how you go about it. What looks like an easy fix can/could/will have game balance destroying consequences!
For example: if you take trolls and just remove the mental and social limiters but leave the rest if the stat enhancements in place, then being a troll is a 'no-brainer' you are stronger, hardier, and just as smart as everyone else with the same potential for social conduct... Why be anything else???
If you REALLY want to do away with the stats for a given race, then the probably best solution (as I stated before) is just use the mechanics for baseline humans. No one has an advantage or disadvantage and race now just becomes social fluff. Problem solved.
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That may be. It may be a flawed premise--at least the average part. Shaving the top off is still a valid target, I think. It's unclear how the attributes scale, but I've been taking them as being roughly a uniform grade, making the top one-sixth or so represented by a 6.
And while I agree that it's a non-biggie mechanically, I think it has real ramifications. All kinds of opportunities cull from the top. People that enjoy them enjoy the greatest mobility, and then often share their prosperity downward. Lacking top-slice access will societally have a downward-pushing effect on any subgroup.
Why should we assume that the average is still 3 when mathematically its 2.5? Not being snotty, just wondering.
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Reaver: you're making a lot of sense. I'm sorry if I flipped you shit.
Do you really think it balances dudes having hulk strength if they have one more die on B/R tests? In hard game mechanics terms I don't really see it. Troll players are likely to be stuffing the physical attributes to the gills, making a L or I choice of 6 extrrrrremely rare (and difficult to swing) case anyway, don't you think? I see plenty of self-regulation there on its own.
And you play something else because chargen/karma resources to get tank stats leave less to beef skills, etc, right? Is that not internal balance enough?
I'm ready to be wrong on that, as I've never had a troll PC and don't know.
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Oh no, that Logic 6 would happen in a flash when people make mages and hackers that can take more damage.
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Oh, right. Duh. Of course they would.
My campaign is quite gritty, enough so that there's been no such thing as 'takeable damage' so far. If you're taking damage at all, you're in a terrible situation and better change it, stat. But then, we haven't seen any soak rolls of 13 plus armor....
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I'll say again that these are great issues to theme a game around benedict. Using fantasy structure as a way of getting your audience to look at themselves is a classic tool.
If you want some pointers towards some of the literature on fantasy and racism I can send you some pointers by PM (although you might have to go through your local library to get to some of them.)
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Yeah, Crunch, hit me up. I'd be interested to see what the lit has been. Much thanks.
I do indeed like to hit the players with moral confrontation a lot in the campaign. I try not to get moralising about it, or to have really any moral stance myself. Just hard decisions are enough. (And maybe the occasional reproach when they veer into sociopathy).
I'm disinclined towards race as an issue in my stuff, as I'm not myself very fond of that accusatory witch hunt 'everything is racist!' perspective hyperliberals can sometimes get up to (however my posts here might appear). Racism is not, in fact, interesting to me at all. It sucks, don't do it, it fucked some people up good, let's move on and not suck.
But this fantasy-species stuff is fascinating. I really don't know why it would be obviously wrong to give trolls different legal privileges IF the premise that they have lesser sentience faculties is correct.
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What seems to have emerged is a question of just how human metahumanity is. From there, a further question: if a being isn't fundamentally human, how much equality do we owe them? And finally, what things MAKE us fundamentally human?
A core tenet of Western ethics' answer thus far is that you can't judge anyone by anything but themselves and their deeds. And however dumb, everyone has equally important emotional lives (though that's a recent idea still fighting for ground). These things--potential, and individual emotional sanctity (presuming an equal sentience)--are what lie behind the word 'humanity,' maybe. Nobody worth listening to has ever argued that physical assets amount to superior species status; no one gives a shit about white people being slower than black people, its the inner features that bind us as 'equal.'
Just a stab; I bet we can do better.
So what happens to that, though, if meta humans are so different as to be not 'human'? You could make the argument that a species with lower average logic, intuition and charisma has less sentience than humans. In fact, I'm unclear on the power of the argument AGAINST that assertion. And then...whoa.
My thing about the slavery resonance aside, I find this question fascinating. All the horns and armor are just cosmetic and only assholes would get hung up on them if inner faculties were comparable. If they AREN'T, and if that design isn't racist because they're NOT human...how obligated are we to treat them as equal at all?
Cause killing an elephant or an ape--and the smartest of each are almost without question smarter and more sentient than the dimmest humans (and I don't even mean severe down's syndrome)--is shitty, but only a tiny eco-minded minority would call it 'murder.'
Now, you're thinking :p
It is pretty clear that the meta variants ARE different from humans. This is evidenced by not only the difference in stats, but the physical characteristics of each race. Yet it is also clear that they stem FROM humans....
So, does that make them "brothers" to humans? Or "cousins"? Or "red headed step children"?
Don't look to the rule books for a difinative answer to this question as they are intentionally vague.
As for a definatiion of "humanity"... Yea... That word's definition has changed in my 40 year life.... Nevermind the fictional setting of SR! Even in SR there is a huge debate about what is sapient and deserving of rights, protections, and guarantees. Some countries and corps include Naga, AIs, Ghouls and Sasquatch as sapient (and thus 'people'). Others its only humans.... With trolls and orks placed a far, far second.
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Okay, take it easy there, Reav. I just meant your most recent point. Otherwise I think it's clear where we disagree about the validity of metagame concerns. In-game, I get it. I don't LIKE it, but I get it.
What I DO like is this idea of Extract The Troll Scientist, which I am going to write up for a little one-off adventure like right-ass now.
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Reaver: you're making a lot of sense. I'm sorry if I flipped you shit.
Do you really think it balances dudes having hulk strength if they have one more die on B/R tests? In hard game mechanics terms I don't really see it. Troll players are likely to be stuffing the physical attributes to the gills, making a L or I choice of 6 extrrrrremely rare (and difficult to swing) case anyway, don't you think? I see plenty of self-regulation there on its own.
And you play something else because chargen/karma resources to get tank stats leave less to beef skills, etc, right? Is that not internal balance enough?
I'm ready to be wrong on that, as I've never had a troll PC and don't know.
Game balance is a HUGE issue that developers of RPGs (PnP, and electronic) struggle with all the time. And sometimes, it's the small things that can really add up to make a huge balance.... Or imbalance.
JUST looking at trolls and limiting this to 4e rules (cause I don't have 5e yet) lets look at their stats for a minute...
+4 Str
+4 body
4 logic limit (note, NOT a -2!)
5 agility limit
Intuition 4 limit
4 charisma limit.
4 willpower limit? (no books, running off memory)
+1 reach (adds 1 die to Melee combat tests)
+1 ballistic/impact armor
45 age max average.
Age is largely a non issue as many players make their characters young to middle aged (also note there is no 'age' penalties to stats)
Everything else leads one to note that trolls excel at soaking damage and dealing massive damage from Melee attacks (+5 dice, +2 damage over a human that invested the same amount of BP in strength), (+5 dice to resist damage over a human, again with same stat investment and gear)
They make 'ok' mages, hackers/riggers and TMs. They won't be as 'Good' as a human, but far from unplayable too (yes, I have played a troll Mage... Up to about 150 karma). But the willpower, logic limiter makes them a little tricky. (-2 dice over a similar human build... Which means 1 less success on average for tests)
Now, if you keep the physical stats the same, but boost the mental stats to 'human' levels....
Trolls are just as good as humans at everything and +5 dice better then humans at absorbing damage, Melee attacking, and +2 DV higher Melee damage (before successes!!) with NO 'limitations'!!! Being a troll goes from 'interesting character choice per concept' all the way to 'no brainer for every archetype!'
I mean, why play anything else BUT trolls with those advantages and no disadvantages?? (except as maybe an interesting character concept...)
Hence the balancing that the Devs have put in by limiting the trolls mental stats as a way to 'steer' the character to the samurai role (where they excel!) and limit their overall power in the arguably more powerful archetypes of riggers/mages...
But really, how much does a logic limit of 4 'handicap' a troll. Well the book says a logic of 4 is university level understanding... Regardless of if the character goes to university! So we can safely say he's 'pretty damn smart!' and capable of doing any job a human can do! Basically that limit of 4 logic means he is -2 dice from any test that a human with the same investment in skills (and MORE investment in logic) is going to be...
In practicle terms, it means on average, the troll is going to get 1 less success per roll (remember also that a single success is all that is needed for most instant tests) and will be 1 to 3 tests behind a human (again with a larger investment logic... Not an inherent bonus!) on extended tests... Meaning he lags behind 'the world's smartest human" by 1 minute (simple extended) to 3 days (extremely hard extended).... Not what I would call a huge handicap considering that human had to invest 55 extra karma to get those +2 dice.
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....
But this fantasy-species stuff is fascinating. I really don't know why it would be obviously wrong to give trolls different legal privileges IF the premise that they have lesser sentience faculties is correct.
Note: I'm note upset, or even riled up :D Just enjoying a debate :thumbs up: sorry if I come across differently... On a train so connection is spotty and my posts are not going through at the times I actuall send them (up to 90min delay I noticed)
Well, that would be the argument of almos 20k and humanis policub.. Or Human nation...
While my stance is similar to MOM's :p
There IS a difference... Just not so big of one to make trolls 'retarded' or even 'special education' cases... In fact the difference is really hardly noticeable by the math I posted up top...
Which runs back to the whole 'racist' thing again... Core rules wise, trolls are 'people' no real argument there. They are different then human obviously, but they think, feel, dream, have ambitions, wants desires and all the other emotions and cognitive abilities of humans.... They just happen to be 10 feet tall, weigh 500pounds and snicker politely at humans who claim to be tough and strong...
In essence, they are human... Just different. It's in game that the racist side of things rears its ugly head... All loud, proud and nasty.
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Oh, yeah, man, no actual static; just ribbing you for the 'now you're thinking!' line once it sounded like I came around to your view. (Which, of course, I didn't.)
Yeah, that in-game question is a real headache for me now. I still find the metagame structural element racist and I don't care how much game balance 'requires' the lower intellect; but if I kept that mechanic anyway, out of deference to the fact that I don't know what I'm talking about and I believe people when they say that balance is a serious concern here? And the trolls had lesser peak faculties? (And no, I'm still not convinced that the lower ceilings somehow don't mean that the average is also lower, etc). Then dude...maybe I don't totally disagree with Humanis? I mean, obviously I do because eww. But...I mean, if they ARE less intelligent on the whole, do I want my vote and their vote counting the same as to how taxes are allocated....
Yuck.
Cool to think about. I may run a villain that makes just the above argument. I mean, I'm gonna make sure a troll rapes him to death, but in the middle acts I'm gonna make him seem as un-villainous as I can.
(Note: along similar lines? always thought some post-apocalyptic future where vampires have nations and keep humans as livestock would be cool. But the livestock would be bred to be, like, super-retarded, and the vampires would trade more or less respectfully with border human nations with high-functioning humans in them. And the vamps would really not vamp out and get all villain-y. And so on).
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(Note: along similar lines? always thought some post-apocalyptic future where vampires have nations and keep humans as livestock would be cool. But the livestock would be bred to be, like, super-retarded, and the vampires would trade more or less respectfully with border human nations with high-functioning humans in them. And the vamps would really not vamp out and get all villain-y. And so on).
Vampires. Ug. Used to be cool, then a crappy writer gave us emo sparkling sissyboy vampires....
At least vampires in SR (IMO) are still nasty, cool, and down right evil! They consume your essence, you very soul... Awesome.
As for f**ked up nations, Amazionia kinda fits your bill. A nation of sentient ghouls, that need human flesh to survive... And the math makes for some highly suspicious "cattle" practices to maintain their population, let alone grow....
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(Note: along similar lines? always thought some post-apocalyptic future where vampires have nations and keep humans as livestock would be cool. But the livestock would be bred to be, like, super-retarded, and the vampires would trade more or less respectfully with border human nations with high-functioning humans in them. And the vamps would really not vamp out and get all villain-y. And so on).
The vampires in the RIFTS rpg did that. Huge herds of Human cattle.
One of the major things Logic effects is mental illusions and manipulations, making Trolls easier prey for mental control type spells.
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As for f**ked up nations, Amazionia kinda fits your bill. A nation of sentient ghouls, that need human flesh to survive... And the math makes for some highly suspicious "cattle" practices to maintain their population, let alone grow....
That's Asamando in West Africa that is the ghoul nation. Amazonia is eco shamans and a Feathered Serpent.
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As for f**ked up nations, Amazionia kinda fits your bill. A nation of sentient ghouls, that need human flesh to survive... And the math makes for some highly suspicious "cattle" practices to maintain their population, let alone grow....
That's Asamando in West Africa that is the ghoul nation. Amazonia is eco shamans and a Feathered Serpent.
Errrrrr....
Um....
Oops?
The long necked shaman is correct. Asamando is the ghoul nation...
As for Rifts.... Interesting idea but totally broken.
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Hey--great conversation, people. Useful and intriguing. Tough subject, well-fought.
I'll let you know if Logic 6 runs amok. Any last takers on why extra expense for 6 is 'as racist' as a cap at 5? (quotes to concede that the cap being racist is inconclusive)
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Mis-sent
Giraffe, that is just the kind of mechanic that makes me cringe. 'Hungarr smash--mrr?? Twinkie plate float before Hungarr? Om nom nom...'. Hate it. Maybe my race alarm is just intermingling with my cliche alarm.
So maybe this is for PM or another thread, but: always was curious about Rifts. Broken because Palladium is? That system never seemed strong. Cool setting, though. Are they out of bidness?
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Giraffe, that is just the kind of mechanic that makes me cringe. 'Hungarr smash--mrr?? Twinkie plate float before Hungarr? Om nom nom...'. Hate it. Maybe my race alarm is just intermingling with my cliche alarm.
So maybe this is for PM or another thread, but: always was curious about Rifts. Broken because Palladium is? That system never seemed strong. Cool setting, though. Are they out of bidness?
Apparently they are not out of business. I was surprised, I figured they'd have been crushed under the weight of all the overpowered sourcebooks by now.
As for the trolls, all I can tell you is..."Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
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Vampires. Ug. Used to be cool, then a crappy writer gave us emo sparkling sissyboy vampires....
Mungo makz da Whampyrez sparklieez.
"Who gave you White Phosphorous, Mungo?"
Iz ordorz itz on da Mahtrickz! Bhuiez itt atz da Bhigg Boxxorz Store, getz da discount!
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Hmmm,
I thought All4 had made a post.... But it seems to be gone.
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there are some potentially justifiable biological reasons for trolls to be dumber; while this was probably not the most politically correct way to put it, an old professor of mine said that he saw a lot of people come in to clinic with "funny-looking kid syndrome" before they had an official diagnosis of a specific mental disability for a child, because a lot of very severe mental disabilities from developmental defects are associated with defects that result in different physical development. down's syndrome is the obvious example of this, but there's any number of syndromes where the developmental problems that affect mental ability also affect the development of many other organs. developmental regulation is tightly interlinked, and a lot of proteins involved pull multiple roles in multiple different cell types.
so there's every possibility that the metagenes responsible for goblinization are also linked to mental development in such a way that it's often stunted relative to human norm or human potential. especially given the weird ways these genes configure in three-dimensional space, it's entirely possible that if you're a troll that you just don't get the same doses of critical brain-development juices that you would if you weren't.
it's also worth mentioning that many orks and trolls goblinize in their teen years, which are crucial years for some of the brain development required for things like impulse control and critical thinking to develop correctly. the human brain actually doesn't finish myelinating some of the longer nerve tracts until sometime in your twenties. between the sudden upswing in metabolic demands that turning into a 400 pound troll implies and the possibility of other related genetic events, it's entirely plausible that brain development might be one of the things that goblinization messes up relative to elves and dwarves and humans, who are generally who they are from birth and don't nearly go through the same amount of bodily change as either of the goblinized subspecies.
or goblinization is really herpes and it hangs out in the nervous system and screws things up. which would explain a lot.
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Apparently they are not out of business. I was surprised, I figured they'd have been crushed under the weight of all the overpowered sourcebooks by now.
Believe it or not Palladium is one of the very few game companies to survive from the 80s without getting sold, bought out or going out of business. As far as I can tell it's them, Steve Jackson Games and Games Workshop.
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yeah, Palladium is doing alright. They had a really rough spot a couple years back with an embezzler, but they recovered from it reasonably well.
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yeah, Palladium is doing alright. They had a really rough spot a couple years back with an embezzler, but they recovered from it reasonably well.
Due in large part to fans who are so diehard and loyal that they donated money to help keep them around. It's rather telling, at least to me, about the quality of a company and the game(s) they produce that there is that much loyalty to them.
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Brilliant ideas, desperately in need of a second edition.
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They did a second edition, but the general result was power creep within the game system itself - don't get me wrong, some of it was quite necessary... the thing is, they're still in the process of updating all their material (that have a ridiculous number of splat books, I can't think of any system with more) and I don't see it ever getting done. The real weaknesses of the Palladium system lay in the tendency of the combat system to bog down quite a bit, and in the fact that you have two grades of enemy to place your players against, maybe three. The first grade is 'low end' the second grade is 'a group of custom rolled characters you as the GM made, during a process that was, for each, slightly more complicated than doing your own taxes' and last but not least, there is the 'you hate your players and wish to see them cry' grade of enemy.
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There is an old joke about palladium games:
"He who uses the oldest book, dies first"
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If it's more expensive to raise an attribute, it's the same as not being able to raise it to that point: You're being limited based on what homo sapiens X you are. If people went "yeah, X people can be as smart as Y people but it takes them far more effort" others would freak.
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There is an old joke about palladium games:
"He who uses the oldest book, dies first"
Unless you're a Glitter Boy, anyway.
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Um.
I think I'll bow out now. Thanks, everyone--okay, some of you--for a useful examination of the topic.
I can't help but find it odd, and a little troubling, that so many people are in such a hurry to defend the plausibility of a hermetically sealed and ahistorical game setting that nevertheless dips freely into recent American and global history...except when it's attractive to ignore major strands of it. Everyone's awfully in a hurry to tell me why the game is immune to the question I posed, and while I find some arguments fair, others are just...well, they could stand some breaths between sentences. And fewer exclamation points. The depth of confidence with which some here have declared 'Nope! Not similar! They're a different SPECIES, bro, so it's not at all weird!' is a little, well, weird. I'm a bit disappointed no one wants to address my points about the game as an artifact situated in, you know, the history of the world we're all actually from. There are resonances that might--might--be picking up between this tidy bubble of a game world and the world we all still live in. Resonances that raise questions about how we interface with our cute lil' bubble of a game world.
But cool. Thanks for considering it. Game balance: FTW.
I am a bit behind but as said, noone is equal, fair is not equal, why should humans be kept from having 9 body naturally? why should trolls be kept from having 6 logic naturally? simple, nature, nothing is the same, in order to obtain something must be given. That throughout history. did you know most diseases came from advancements in technological and agricultural areas? but thats a bit off topic though relevant. not why are you so upset about trolls having a 5 max logic? why you not upset humans cant have a 9 body max? stop being discriminate about one particular thing. In a perfect world I still do not believe everyone would be the same, how boring is that, potential to be the same? possibly but thats pushing it.
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Alrighty, I think I can win this debate. Lets go.
1) When 1st Edition SR came out, it was strongly tied with ED. Same company, same world. That's just a conceit that cannot be denied.
2) Books and movies from the 5th Age have "trolls" who are dumber but stronger than humans.
3) Their Pattern is reinforced by these 5th Age books and movies. (Maybe in contrast to 1st Ed ED, but I doubt it.)
4) Goblinization occurs, and Trolls take their name from fantasy novels.
5) The Pattern is applied to them, creating a mythic limit to their intelligence.
6) Oh... shit just got real. Literally.
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Others might freak, but then, they get all bothered all the time about race. Being hysterical and prone to offense doesn't mean they have real arguments. I don't mind being un-PC, just being maybe truly racist--a term I'd rather define for myself than have political agitators define it for me.
I see nothing heinous about saying that factors beyond a people's control--access to education, nutrition, discrimination, abuse, etc--make it harder to reach developmental pinnacles. The extra points would reflect rarity and the considerable game advantage of the elevated stat--just like Troll Priority A.
And Raiden, dude. Think about what you're saying. It's fine if you accept that meta humans magically have no connotative connection to humanity or history; then, sure, alien races, different features. I don accept that disconnect. And if meta humans DO come in context of humanity...like I said, nobody is worried about racism if black people are faster.
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sorry, I kinda worded paragraph badly. was half asleep haha. But what the point I was trying to make is you can't say that trolls are being viewed from a racists standpoint with there logic being 5 max. Without also saying that humans having a bod max of six is not also racist. Now even in the real world races are different, even if slightly, acknowledging that fact is not racism in itself. Its the part that comes after, judging yourself better than another due to your race is racism. admitting your different from each other in some ways is not.
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Alrighty, I think I can win this debate. Lets go.
1) When 1st Edition SR came out, it was strongly tied with ED. Same company, same world. That's just a conceit that cannot be denied.
2) Books and movies from the 5th Age have "trolls" who are dumber but stronger than humans.
3) Their Pattern is reinforced by these 5th Age books and movies. (Maybe in contrast to 1st Ed ED, but I doubt it.)
4) Goblinization occurs, and Trolls take their name from fantasy novels.
5) The Pattern is applied to them, creating a mythic limit to their intelligence.
6) Oh... shit just got real. Literally.
Shadowrun 1e: 1989
Earthdawn 1993
Earthdawn is a spinoff of SR and took its queues from SR.... In short your chicken was preceeded by your egg :p
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Then the Pattern reinforced itself. The Pattern always existed. No worries about chicken and egg here. Both are delicious.
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I see nothing heinous about saying that factors beyond a people's control--access to education, nutrition, discrimination, abuse, etc--make it harder to reach developmental pinnacles. The extra points would reflect rarity and the considerable game advantage of the elevated stat--just like Troll Priority A.
So you're saying it's impossible for a Troll to exist who does not suffer from those factors? It's impossible for a troll to grow up with good education, nutrition, no abuse, not suffering from discrimination, etc?
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No. Not all trolls would have to climb through that. The cost would then just reflect the rarity of the dude that DIDN'T.
Maybe points expense is not a good mechanic to use to reflect rarity. Haven't thought that part all the way through.
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No. Not all trolls would have to climb through that. The cost would then just reflect the rarity of the dude that DIDN'T.
So according to that logic, the rare example has to still pay more than a human? Or is a player simply not allowed to play that rare case? And what about humans who don't have the right circumstances? Shouldn't any runner pay more?
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One thing I want to point out that I haven't seen brought up yet is that the racial attributes are not necessarily the innate capability of each possible member of that race - if it was, we'd probably be seeing higher maximums for a number of different things. The reason why I bring this up is because of another racially adjusted stat that is in the game numbers, but not always in the fluff: elves and their +2 Charisma. Are all elves born naturally socially smarter? No, but there is a tendency for society to expect them to be somehow socially exceptional, and this creates a proclivity (or greater ability to take advantage of others' expectations). We're not seeing genetic intelligence as much as the basic tendency that society expects, tolerates, and allows. That's why Trolls, which are discriminated against, have lower maximum (and therefore generally lower average) Logic. They're denied opportunities and express as lower logic.
I'm not ragging on you all for seeing this the way you do, but I AM surprised that no one else seems too weirded out by it
I understand all of the points that you're making, and if I was going farther into the game and its dramatic/storytelling side I might agree, but...
Don't think too hard about gameplay balance stuff (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra)
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... elves and their +2 Charisma. Are all elves born naturally socially smarter? No, but there is a tendency for society to expect them to be somehow socially exceptional, and this creates a proclivity (or greater ability to take advantage of others' expectations). We're not seeing genetic intelligence as much as the basic tendency that society expects, tolerates, and allows. That's why Trolls, which are discriminated against, have lower maximum (and therefore generally lower average) Logic. They're denied opportunities and express as lower logic.
To some extent I agree, but the mechanics don't really follow the logic there. Elves have a naturally higher charisma potential because they are elves. That Charisma works across the entire game system. My elf technomancer with 8 Charisma gets an Attack program rating of 8 in SR5. The Matrix doesn't care that she's an elf, and, indeed, her icon in no way shows her inherent elfness. Yet there she is, running with a stupid high Attack rating on her living persona. Modifiers in social situations have their own mechanic, with Qualities like First Impression. Maybe someone likes elves enough to warrant a +1 or +2 dice pool or limit modifier on interactions. Of course, the opposite could be true, and someone hates elves enough to knock dice off the test or adjust the limit for that NPC. Now, it could be that social standing have given elves a naturally higher charisma because the fact that pretty much everyone loves them really helps their confidence and self-assurance, but that bump to the ego still manifests as an actual change.
In the same regard, trolls have a lower logic potential than most because they're trolls. It's a quirk of the subspecies. People don't become less intelligent because society believes they are. There are a lot of very smart people out there that society would deem "dumb" simply because they don't take standardized tests well or outright don't care. That wouldn't reduce their capacity for logical thought at all--though it might lead to depression and other self-esteem issues.
This is not to say that there can't be exceptional members of the subspecies. But that's what Exceptional Attribute represents.
Lorewise, remember that, every 5000 or so years, magic goes through a cycle, where it waxes and wanes. In the Fifth World, Magic waned enough that the subspecies' traits were hidden behind that fact that everyone looked like a normal human. With the return of magic to the world, the subspecies have retaken their actual appearances. Even in Earthdawn, the scholars at one time believed that the Namegiver races were all members of a single species that evolved in different ways. When the Fifth World came about, they were proven right. And then we forgot about it.
Is that racist? Not really. It's simply science. Fake science meant to justify codified difference between races in a roleplaying game, but science all the same.
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That's the 'alien races' argument, which works fine. I've never read Earthdawn, nor dipped very far into SR mythology, so to me, it's all just people, and now some are armored and dimmer. Again: in-game, the arguments are sound; meta-game, I can't ignore what the game world conditions evoke. Maybe if I was more of a fantasy guy this kind of thing would feel natural.
I think some people here are kidding themselves about intelligence v other qualities in the equality conversation, I gotsta say, mein friends. In a primitive world it'd be one thing, but as civilization grows, logic=mastery (well, that and plenty of evil). A species in a postmodern world that's dumber than us on average is fuuuuucked, hulks or no hulks.
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Not exactly benedict, there's no theory in the origin of the Named Races and their ties to Metahumanity. It is fact, undeniable fact. By only exposing yourself to the surface of Shadowrun's history and reality, you're not able to take a look at the big picture.
So what you're seeing, being such a small scope focus, is thrown out of proportion. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant)
Absolutely, if you only look at Trolls and say "They're Black People!" you'll see the books as Racist. (And you'll see the rest of us as racist as well. Hats off to your flaming ability, though, its been a very interesting read). But, you're touching the leg and thinking its a tree trunk.
Trolls, in Shadowrun, are of Human Stock, but they're genetic code has been thrown out the window and replaced in a fit of pain, blood, and drek. They've become something that was and something that will be again but was not just prior. To try to put some science to it... how much of human DNA is considered "Junk"? (Noncoding DNA). For Trolls, someone has gone in and reactivated it, and now it is expressing itself. Are they still human?
If you want a "scientific reason", we've given it to you. You obviously don't want that.
We've given you reasons why it makes sense within the context of the 6th World. You obviously don't want that either.
Fact is, in the SR verse, Trolls have a limit to their natural aptitude. For whatever reason (I personally like the Pattern), half (half!) of their dice pool is limited. But nothing says that an industrious Troll cannot raise his Logic based skills above any level. With work and dedication, he can get his dice pool above humans. Though I suppose it does impact his Mental Limit. *Shrugs*
The fact that the rules evoke a dark and gritty world where things just aren't fair... well, that tells me that the writers did a great job. The rules are reinforcing the feeling in the game. Congrats, writers!
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Perhaps you should invest yourself in the Mythology before you really begin to attempt to analyze it. It's like claiming to do an in-depth study of the Bible after reading the back of a Chick comic.
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wish I could remember where I read this, but it's in a 4e sourcebook some where (will go looking for the page and book when I have more time)
But apparently, the transformation to troll, is EXTREMELY painful! As in Neuralogically damaging painful! This could be the reason for the lower mental stats.. and makes some sense as well.
After all, we are not talking bout growing 6 inches in a year (which can lead to "growing pains" in modern preteens) we are talking about growing 4 feet, adding 300 pounds of mass, teeth growing in size, NEW teeth growing, boney knobs forming, Horns sprouting out of flesh. Arms getting extended.. and anything else I missed. ALL happening in as little as 1 hour or over the course of 2 weeks (if you are extremely unlucky)
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Perhaps you should be a bit less of a condescending prick and...
[Ron Burgundy]
Boy, that escalated quickly.
[/Ron]
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Mungo hatz dat iz noo lunger 1337.
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Honestly, I really think the tinges of racism that the OP are reacting to might exist. However, the mechanics exist to
help reinforce the setting. And, with the changes to 4th and 5th Edition from earlier, I will say that it is far LESS against
the Orks and Trolls then it used to be. Trolls and Orks, though have a number of issues to deal with in setting.
First is the simple fact that they are, generally, at the bottom of the heap. The are heavily in the Barrens, and frequently
get less then adequate schooling. This latter is for a number of reasons. With Orks, it is because they develop faster.
For Trolls it is because they get BIGGER and STRONGER faster. Someone tries to bully them in school, and they hit
back, accidentally injuring, or even killing the other kid is a much greater possibility. On top of that, you are going to have
parents and teachers and school staff looking at Ork and Troll kids as "troublemakers" since they have such physical
differences. (A side effect of Ork accelerated development, BTW, is that they are trying to learn stuff AFTER the times when
modern developmental psychologists believe it should be learned at, after the brain can best learn it, meaning they will also
have a harder time learning things because of when they are learning them.)
Second, due to the likelihood of them being at the bottom of the heap, they are not going to get the best nutrition. Orks
will be needing to eat more growing up(and competing against their siblings) because they are growing faster then
humans, while trolls will be needing to eat ALOT more because they are growing faster, and are BIGGER. Malnutrition
effects many things, including brain development.
Finally, they have the prejudices of society. Anything they do is going to be looked at through the lens of the Dumb Tusker,
or Stupid Trog. After a point, it might just be easier to give in to those stereotypes then keep trying to buck the system.
However, Orks and Trolls can reach the same average Logic, Intuition, and Charisma as anyone else, and can get
to high ends just as easy. This is because, frankly, the school systems, even the worst, are good at getting most people
to a reasonable point(the mythical Average of 3, and above average of 4), and you are flat out going to develop certain
social skills and reach a certains trength of personality if you interact with people regularly growing up. Now, for a Troll
or Ork to get Logic 6? Yeah they are going to have to work for it, work hard, fight through all those things that are conspiring
to hold them back. Prove to the teachers they are just as good as the humans kids, not hit that kid that was throwing rocks
at them, get better food in the right quantities. It is not just applying themselves in school, it is fighting EVERYTHING in the
dark, dystopian world that is Shadowrun that is trying to keep them down. And, that is why they take Exceptional Attribute
Logic.
Is the mechanic itself racist? No. Does it convey the underlying racism in the setting? Yes. Does it convey that there are
differences between Trolls, Orks,and humans, through multiple factors, that can effect the ability of those groups to learn?
Does it convey that there is, indeed, institutionalized racism in the setting that is there to put down those deemed different?
Yes, yes it does.
I think, ultimately, the issue is that one has to remember that Shadowrun is not our modern world. It is a dystopian world
where if the square peg won't fit into a round hole, they will beat the square peg in until it either forces its way in, or it breaks.
Trolls are the ultimate in Square Pegs, with Orks being only a little less. The world will try its darnedest to make them fit
into what it wants. It will not, like in the real world, try to help them adapt with special schooling or counseling. If they can't
fit into the schooling provided by the private, for-profit corp that is running the schools, well...that corp isn't going to cut into
its bottom line to help them. That sort of bleeding heart crap is expensive!
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I was perfectly willing to debate with you, but with the lashing out, and statements such as "some people here are kidding themselves about intelligence v other qualities in the equality conversation" and especially "I gotsta say, mein friends", you are basically targetting the people themselves for not agreeing with you, and deliberately making us feel as if you're considering us nazis. And at that point I no longer feel comfortable continuing this debate. With the recent cussing and all those low remarks, you are no longer trying to talk fairly about this, you are just expressing contempt to us.
@Reaver: Wasn't there research recently about kids who get in a fight and get injured on the head end up losing a few IQ points?
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That is NOT racism... That is using a common scale to evaluate different entities.
Troll brain is different from humain brain, different in size and form.
Education and knowledge is not intelligence. You can be educated but dumb. You can start un-educated and learn. You cant learn to be smart. You can train your smartness, exercise your brain, lure IQ test by practising their kind of exercice. But the only way to become a genius is to be born one. It depend on your physical brain configuration, just like physics. And troll have a brain configurated differently...
Why ? There was Troll mages, scientist, artist and thus since ancient history, there even have been Trolls kingdom. Yet Troll aren't able of the mental prowess of the weaker races... Why ?
Because they are too strong and resistant to their environment, they didn't had to evolve the logical skills needed for survival, and thus their brain inner work is simpler. Let's put a dwarf, an human and a Troll in a wild setting. Human will need to make tools and weapon and to find way to reach food If he want to survive. Dwarf had to be extra smart compared to human because he is smaller and slower, so more vulnerable and have an harder time reaching things. Troll could just bare handly manage everything that come into his way and transform predator into food, he can take everything he need (including from the weaker namegivers).
That is a nature thing, the stronger and more dangerous you are the dumber you become. It is for the weak and vulnerable things to develop cunning and intelligence.
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First is the simple fact that they are, generally, at the bottom of the heap. The are heavily in the Barrens, and frequently get less then adequate schooling.
Humans, elves, dwarves, orks and trolls are, generally, not living in North American cities. There are at least one or two billions of humans in Africa or Asia who do get less than adequate schooling. I don't think that should limit the attributes maximums of one born in Seattle Downtown.
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First is the simple fact that they are, generally, at the bottom of the heap. The are heavily in the Barrens, and frequently get less then adequate schooling.
Humans, elves, dwarves, orks and trolls are, generally, not living in North American cities. There are at least one or two billions of humans in Africa or Asia who do get less than adequate schooling. I don't think that should limit the attributes maximums of one born in Seattle Downtown.
Maybe, but at the same time, they are going to have the same prejudices from humans holding them back. And they are going to be
in places where strength is survival, so their natural strength and toughness is going to get them an edge where they won't have the
incentive to put the extra work(read: Exceptional Attribute) to rise beyond the expectations of them.
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A post has been removed for breaking the Terms of Service and action has been taken against the poster.
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8 pages on this? Seriously?
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8 pages on this? Seriously?
We're an overly verbose crowd. would you prefer eight pages on cow tipping or other unprovoked assaults on innocent herbivores? :)
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8 pages on this? Seriously?
We're an overly verbose crowd. would you prefer eight pages on cow tipping or other unprovoked assaults on innocent herbivores? :)
Depends - are we talking melee assaults, or something fun with a 40mm?
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Depends - are we talking melee assaults, or something fun with a 40mm?
I'm talking a DV 11 P Reach 2 giraffe kick to a hunter's head.
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Now, now. What we really need is to put the centaur battle harness from 10 Mercs on the herbivores, and watch the cows start fighting back.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNrzWiRxOgE
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Now I just want a giraffe burger...
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Giraffes are NOT innocent herbivores. Did you know Africa has no bug spirits? Do you know why? The giraffes ate them. ATE them. Even the Cape Buffalos fear them, that's why they stick to the Cape.
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Sorry, guys. That was uncool, downclassing the conversation like that. Condescension is no excuse for name-calling, however peeved I might be, or however in need of a beatdown some might get. By that point in the night I'd had a) quite enough of lines like 'limited view,' 'small picture,' 'you are mistaken, we are loaded with facts,' etc., and b) plenty too much to drink. Bad combo. Blew up a bit. My apologies.
Michael--I'm sorry if my rowdy language offended. Really. As to the rest, though, I can't fathom how you keep feeling like I'm attacking the character of everyone in the conversation, including yours. There is no 'you all' and 'me' in my mind, yet you and some others insist on speaking as 'we,' as if it's me vs. Forum. I'm just posing a question and furthering my viewpoint. The 'mein' thing...come on, dude. I've shown a real flair for name-calling; if I think you're a Nazi I'll just be rude and call you a Nazi, not embed some tepid insinuation in a contorted, barely-visible subtext. I'm German stock, Michael. I mix in German all the time for kicks when I'm getting colloquial or lippy. It's a street move. Call my wife 'frau,' love the word 'mensch,' etc. I guess given my mention of eugenics there's a resonance to pick up there; total unhappy accident.
As for the other thing, how on earth are you getting character attack out of it? It's a point. Several people in the conversation have rested on the point that different species have different attribute swings, and it should seem just as (potentially) racist to me that others exceed humans in, say, strength. This keeps coming up in various iterations of the 'since it's scientific in-game, the echoes of real-world history you're talking about are irrelevant' stance, which I don't find convincing. So, yeah, I think some are kidding themselves that intelligence and other human qualities--attributes, here--are equivalent in the equality game. That is a stance that is so wildly divorced from how things work on earth that I thought it was worth addressing. Intelligence isn't the only ingredient in a successful life, but it's damn sure the biggest one, especially species-wide. Sapiens sapiens didn't take the planet over because it was stronger or faster--and that was in the stone age. Now? A people with lesser average and peak intellect than humans are going to be ground to dust in a modern world, where economics, technology, sophisticated law and calculated decision-making are the coins of the realm. How I'm also saying 'you guys' are all Nazis there...bro, I don't get your offense. Again.
As for the condescension, other dudes that aren't most dudes, there's all kinds of ways to offend, undermine, attack and hold in contempt without using profanity. It's a pusillanimous brand of argumentation to pretend to wield the unshakeable truth, the silver-bullet fact, the tired-but-patient awareness of your opponent's 'limited comprehension.' Plenty of people here have challenged my assertion without getting aloof. I don't know how you do it in your town, but in mine, that kind of weak Mordred-style action gets the beat-down. I still haven't learned my lesson about the internet that you just let that kind of thing slide. I shoulda let it slide; I didn't. Calling you out by name may not have been internet etiquette, but it seemed *less* obnoxious than just veiling my complaints. (Michael, I didn't see you objecting to any of those dudes' low tactics. Is it because they came in service of what you identify as 'your (pl)' point?)
If you want to talk big picture, o ye dismissers, I'll invite you one more time to address the point I've been making from the beginning. Yes, I get the in-world justifications. Yes, I agree; there's no racist intent inside the world design. No, I don't think you guys are racist for defending the game. But the game is an art object. How close to real-world ills can an art object be before it can no longer pretend it has no political resonance? No amount of in-game argument can answer that question. Mythology-drenched dudes playing it can rock the 'yo, EARTHDAWN timeline' thing with ease, but to any eyes off the street, the design choices the game makes are *choices*, not just conveniently unrelated bits about different species. In my post that was removed, I made what I feel is an apt comparison: Picasso's Demoiselles D'Avignon. Does he get to claim there's nothing misogynist about it because the chicks, like, are all boxy and obviously not 'real' chicks? If there were an all-female species of, like, kobold, and they all had three breasts, and they all were a little dumber, but had higher Intuition at the expense of being more prone to emotional outbursts, and often wanted more money, and got a +1 to cleaning skills, do you really think any amount of in-game mythology would totally shield that species design from some raised eyebrows? I've laid that obviously ludicrous example out next to a description of how trolls work for some total non-nerd, no-fantasy or RPG-style friends, and in all six cases they've found the troll the more iffy of the two. I find that telling.
Not 'damning.' Just 'telling.' Makes me wonder. NOT about the evil intent of Tolkein, or Tom Dowd or any SR designers then or since. More about how art objects function and what their level of responsibility to the history of the world is. That's all, guys. Really. I think those are worthy, hard questions and I still don't know where I stand on them in the end. I know my gut is uncomfy, and that's about all I've asserted.
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@Reaver: Wasn't there research recently about kids who get in a fight and get injured on the head end up losing a few IQ points?
Not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised at all. In my 20s I joined a Kickboxing gym in my hometown run by a very famous Kick boxer. It was the type of place that they catered to all comers... so if you there just for the workout and experience, that was cool, if you were there to become a pro, that was cool too.
Some of those that were trying to turn Pro were..... well... lets just say "a little off"...
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That is NOT racism... That is using a common scale to evaluate different entities.
Troll brain is different from humain brain, different in size and form.
Education and knowledge is not intelligence. You can be educated but dumb. You can start un-educated and learn. You cant learn to be smart. You can train your smartness, exercise your brain, lure IQ test by practising their kind of exercice. But the only way to become a genius is to be born one. It depend on your physical brain configuration, just like physics. And troll have a brain configurated differently...
Why ? There was Troll mages, scientist, artist and thus since ancient history, there even have been Trolls kingdom. Yet Troll aren't able of the mental prowess of the weaker races... Why ?
Because they are too strong and resistant to their environment, they didn't had to evolve the logical skills needed for survival, and thus their brain inner work is simpler. Let's put a dwarf, an human and a Troll in a wild setting. Human will need to make tools and weapon and to find way to reach food If he want to survive. Dwarf had to be extra smart compared to human because he is smaller and slower, so more vulnerable and have an harder time reaching things. Troll could just bare handly manage everything that come into his way and transform predator into food, he can take everything he need (including from the weaker namegivers).
That is a nature thing, the stronger and more dangerous you are the dumber you become. It is for the weak and vulnerable things to develop cunning and intelligence.
so your point is:
Cause Trolls are so hardy and strong they didn't rely on brain power as much, and thus evolved into a less intelligent humanoid?
interesting.
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I seem to remember Earthdawn having separate rations for Trolls. I also vaguely remember some scientific studies linking brain development in early man to their diets - our brains require incredible amounts of fuel. Going off that you could use the argument that in the sixth world Trolls are all just malnourished. Unrelated directly to the metahumanity racist argument there are a lot of general stereotype vibes in Shadowrun that kind of irk me a little. The noble savage treatment of native americans being one of them. Game was written in the 80s though and even though that doesn't seem too long ago they were calling AIDS/HIV GRID.
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It does make sense. Everyone's heard the (kinda ugly) bit about how hot blonde girls often don't have to ever get smart because hotness, and while I'm not sure if that's true, it does ring a gong. Evolutionarily, being such a king fish would excuse you from having to go full-tilt on brain development. You don't see a ton of smarts in crocodiles, either...
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I think the biggest problem with trying to turn the "penalties" into something other than concrete Trolls and Orks are dumber than Humans are the fact that Dwarves (i'm not sure if willpower should really work into this argument or not) and Elves get bonuses. If Human mental attributes were the highest you could make an argument that Trolls and Orks are not dumber their brains just function differently and in a way that puts them at a disadvantage in a world built by/for humans. I remember reading (again vaguely but this is just going to help prove the study) that Millennials as a whole are much better at abstract problem solving and pattern recognition than previous generations but much worse at information retention. The explanation being that my generation (I'm 27) has spent a lot of their developing years with access to digital world so we've learned how to get to answers very quickly but never bothered with retention. (We start with the analytical mind positive quality for free) I'm pretty sure the studies were limited to first world countries.
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Since my personal integrity has been attacked, I am permanently retiring from this debate.
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If you want to talk big picture, o ye dismissers, I'll invite you one more time to address the point I've been making from the beginning. Yes, I get the in-world justifications. Yes, I agree; there's no racist intent inside the world design. No, I don't think you guys are racist for defending the game. But the game is an art object. How close to real-world ills can an art object be before it can no longer pretend it has no political resonance? No amount of in-game argument can answer that question. Mythology-drenched dudes playing it can rock the 'yo, EARTHDAWN timeline' thing with ease, but to any eyes off the street, the design choices the game makes are *choices*, not just conveniently unrelated bits about different species.
To be honest, I am not even sure what you point is :P
Art, on it's own, is nothing. It is lines on a piece of paper. Or words in a sentence. Or curves in a material. After that point, it is up to the viewer or reader to determine what, (or if) that art has merit, value and/or substance. Given the rapid flow of information in today's world, we are surrounded by political messages, beliefs, ideas, facts, fictions, and they help (or hinder) the evolution of our social conscience.
To that, it is safe to say that ANY form of art work produced with be seen as having a political message attached to it for the simple reason that we are looking for a political reason/rationale behind the art work. And if we can't find one readily, we will invent one.
As to Picasso's Demoiselles D'Avignon, I see nothing misogynist about it. I see a work of art that displays non descript female forms for the simple beauty that is the female form. There is no focus on the "nudie bits" and there is no hyper extention of the forms, except in the abstract expressionist style of the artist that he is known for.
HOWEVER, to a small segment of the population, the simple fact that he would draw women with an abstract expressionist style AND remove their clothing simply MUST <roll eyes> mean that he hates and abuses women and MUST be a misogynist!
but, no matter what they think, doesn't make that true.
your question seems to boil down to:
"Does life imitate Art, or Art imitate life"
the simple answer is "Yes" to both.
Many times in our history events have moved great artists to render an event in a form of Art which has then come to have deep and lasting impact on society. And, at the same time, Art has come about and been so moving, that society has come to shift it's views towards the artwork's depiction.
Anyone can read anything, and come away with a different interpretation of what is being said (prime example: these forums!!) And that interpretation is correct FOR YOU. However, given that truth is subjective to the one seeking it, and your values, up bringing, social morals, social stratification, ethnic, religious and moral baselines, not to mention educational level all have a part in the subjective outlook of the observer, there is no correct answer that you can seek.. only conscenus with the whole.... for right or wrong.
YOU see something in the writing that, because of the afore mentioned make up of your Psychology. We don't see an issue due to the make up of our Psychology. Or you choose to make an issue out of nothing based on your understanding of an issue at large and seek parallels every where you look, while we choose to ignore or avoid the issue due to our understanding of the issue at large. Neither is incorrect.
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Art should disturb the comfortable and comfort the disturbed.
Art is also more than just your subjective experience. The more you bring to a piece of art the more you get out of it.
Yes, there is rampant racism(specism?) in SR, and it is highlighted by the inequities in both Trolls and Orcs. And I like that. I SHOULD be there. Racism is still a problem in our world today(despite what the SCOTUS has said), and it needs to still be addressed. Yes, there are other issues plaguing our society, from social inequity to homophobia and environmental concerns, and I like that this game setting allows some of those things to be discussed obliquely. We can talk about Trolls and Orcs without having to explicitly label the parallels. I really don't care what the explanation is, be it non-expressed genes or magic or whatever. It's not important.
If your game has no room for such discussion, then don't bring it up, but if you think it's a subject that merits attention then by all means make it an integral part of your game. However, like others have brought up, game balance is also an issue and so I would not suggest you remove those limits in the sense of 'fairness', without putting in another equitable game balance mechanic.
Personally, I would much rather see a discussion on LGBQ issues, like a lot of contemporary cyberpunk is addressing. Though having gender-questionable Elves might ruffle more than a few feathers...
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Word up to that. The consensus is overwhelmingly 'don't touch the Attribute limit,' so what I'm gonna do is, I'm gonna lift the limit anyway, and if/when it f*cks things backwards, I'ma report back here that I shoulda deferred to everyone's mechanics savvy. I suspect that's what'll happen. I'm very open to a suggestion for an alternate mechanical counterbalance. Haven't thought of anything so far.
On racism in-game: it's of course rampant in our world, but not really the subject of stories, as thus far I've been running with the 'equality of brains' premise, meaning any racism is just black-and-white villainy; not too interesting. My big takeaway from this discussion is that IF I can stomach some species being dimmer, and that is a whopping 'if,' it DOES make racism a fascinating thing to explore.
As for LGBT, hells yes. Check this one: so I made this treasury cop that sometimes aids and sometimes manipulates the party, and she's all-female, identifies as female, no hormonal alterations--except she has a johnson. There's an official acronym for such post-op subculturals in-game that I forget, but everyone on the streets just calls them 'chicks with dicks.' Their beef is that they want to remain female, but don't see why they should be therefore prejudged as having and enjoying female genitalia. 'Female' for them connotes various subtleties, softnesses, elegancies, entitlement to a little chivalry, of course it's fluid, but they wanna be 'ladies' in the full height of that term. With big ol' wangs.
We love it. The desire to codify, and of course to commodify, concrete qualities that go with gender just crashes into such variability in the altered self that 'gender' starts to come apart, even as LGBT subgroups hurry to preserve it for the parts they like and want to be able to don. Also, it makes for some hilariously awkward, sometimes quite sweet and tender fumbling at bars when characters hit on NPCs and have to feel out, like, what are you? And, uh, how do you like it?
A room full of straight men trying to do right by a scene between a gay woman and a chick-with-dick NPC that could be willing to rock bones...pretty high times.
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@MadBear:
Well put.
@Benny :D
I believe those in the transsexual call them "Bottoms": Transsexual who enjoys the femme/submissive side of sexuality.
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@Reaver: Not necessarily effeminate, or submissive. Bottom generally denotes that you prefer to receive, rather than give. You can be a dominating bottom ('Power bottom'). And you can be masculine about it.
@Madbear: Well said. Although if you're commenting on elves, one has to wonder about the argument of whether female dwarves have beards. :P
@Ben: With regards to in-world racism, it as you implied varies from who is running the world. Some GMs are more likely to capitalise on it, while others won't care as much.
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@Reaver: Not necessarily effeminate, or submissive. Bottom generally denotes that you prefer to receive, rather than give. You can be a dominating bottom ('Power bottom'). And you can be masculine about it.
hmmm..
ok.
Do you know the term? "Chicks with dicks" was the vulgar definition of it but I am at a loss for the PC version of it now....
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Yeah, man, I don't mean trans bottoms. I mean women. With breasts, female bone structure and hormones.
And a live, working johnson.
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@Reaver: The fun part is finding a PC term scattered among offensive terms. 'Shemale' was used for a while but it's a pretty good way to get a somewhat deserved black eye nowadays (as it implies you're calling them a prostitute). If you're talking about identifying as female within a male body, then it would be transgender. If you're talking about having identifying as female, with both female and male characteristics on your body, I guess that could be Intersex? It's not really accurate, but it's the closest definition I can find on the fly.
@Ben: I didn't mean them either. I'm talking about the term in general. 'Receiver' is a more accurate definition than 'submissive' or 'effeminate'.
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No, I feel you. Though no one I've known that might fit the description would care too much for any term at all...outside of their select company, at which point it's all terms, mostly to rib each other with.
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Yeah, man, I don't mean trans bottoms. I mean women. With breasts, female bone structure and hormones.
And a live, working johnson.
.
..
...
.....
um...err... um in the SR world,
Yeah, man, I don't mean trans bottoms. I mean women. With breasts, female bone structure and hormones.
And a live, working Johnson
describes just about every Corp Exec female in the game! They all want something, they all need something, and they have their little Yes man (Mr. Johnson) go get it for them. (that would be you getting it. And Mr. Johnson pocketing get extra cash he screwed you outta for getting it.)
I am failing to see how this promotes "gender and sexualism equality"?????????
<Wink>
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If you want to talk big picture, o ye dismissers, I'll invite you one more time to address the point I've been making from the beginning. Yes, I get the in-world justifications. Yes, I agree; there's no racist intent inside the world design. No, I don't think you guys are racist for defending the game. But the game is an art object. How close to real-world ills can an art object be before it can no longer pretend it has no political resonance? No amount of in-game argument can answer that question.
You know..I had a whole post breaking things down...then I took a look at the actual skills involved in the attributes, and realized something:
The real reason for the lower caps isn't that the aptitudes...it is because otherwise, they would have to give individual penalties to most
of the skills. Why is that, you say? Let's look at the skills:
Under logic, we have:
Affected by social prejudices:
Academic Knowledges, Professional Knowledges.
Affected by Size:
All the Mechanic Skills, First Aid, Medicine, Hardware, Demolitions, Cybertechnology(due to the maintenance aspect), Forgery,
Armorer.
Unaffected by either:
Software, Computers, Cybercombat, Electronic Warfare, Arcana
Under Intuition, we have:
Affected by Social prejudices:
Interests Knowledge.
Affected by Size:
Disguise, Perception, Tracking, Artisan.
Unaffected by either:
Language, Street Knowledge, Navigation
In logic, Orks and trolls have a harder time with the SKILLS linked to Logic because of their being bigger then
humans. For Trolls, it is the same thing for Intuition. So, ultimately, it is NOT that they are "less intelligent." It
is that they just can't be as good at the skills covered by those attributes because they are bigger. The lowered
caps of the attributes are not because they are "less", it is because the attributes represent an across the board
penalty to the skills that would be penalized by the size of the Orks and Trolls. That the average Ork and Troll is
just as good at those as the average human or elf is a benefit of the 4th and 5th edition take on making attributes
a starting level and cap method, as opposed to the 1st through 3rd editions Bonus and Penalty method.
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On first glance, Mara...that was really f*cking helpful. Man, that to me is a solid piece of technical thinking that neutralizes the problem. I don't know if it'll scan under scrutiny, but I really like it.
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ahhh, out of the box thinking!
Well done Mara
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ahhh, out of the box thinking!
Well done Mara
It started because I was going to point out some things relating to Intuition not being all mental, and I looked at the
wrong attribute chart, then realized "Wait...all these Logic skills have some issues where the troll hand as big as my
head is going to be clumsier doing these.." And then, I looked at the right column, and it was "Yeah..these are alot
more then just 'leaps of insight.' Actually, the realization came as I was looking at information for a logical argument,
and my brain said "Wait, hold it! So many of these skills, Trolls and Orks will have trouble with, not because they are
'dumber', but because they are bigger and more awkward..Trolls especially!"
Yeah, a Troll can be a darned good tracker...but he will never equal an Elf or Human, because he is BIGGER. MUCH
bigger. He has to get down on his belly to see thing that an Elf or Human can look at by dropping to knee and bending
over. And, part of being a good tracker is not just seeing and reading the trail, but being able to do so quickly. The extra
seconds can make losing pursuit much easier if you are being pursued by a Troll Tracker.
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@Reaver: The fun part is finding a PC term scattered among offensive terms. 'Shemale' was used for a while but it's a pretty good way to get a somewhat deserved black eye nowadays (as it implies you're calling them a prostitute). If you're talking about identifying as female within a male body, then it would be transgender. If you're talking about having identifying as female, with both female and male characteristics on your body, I guess that could be Intersex? It's not really accurate, but it's the closest definition I can find on the fly.
@Ben: I didn't mean them either. I'm talking about the term in general. 'Receiver' is a more accurate definition than 'submissive' or 'effeminate'.
"Transgender woman" or "trans woman" will generally not offend anyone and are appropriate regardless of whether the person in question has had sex reassignment surgery and/or hormone treatment. "Chicks with dicks" and "shemale" will offend many people FYI.
"Genderqueer" is a commonly accepted PC term for people who identify as neither men nor women. Note that it describes gender identification, not physical characteristics. "Intersex" is the analogue that describes physical characteristics and would be used (for example) to describe someone with androgen insensitivity syndrome.
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@Reaver: The fun part is finding a PC term scattered among offensive terms. 'Shemale' was used for a while but it's a pretty good way to get a somewhat deserved black eye nowadays (as it implies you're calling them a prostitute). If you're talking about identifying as female within a male body, then it would be transgender. If you're talking about having identifying as female, with both female and male characteristics on your body, I guess that could be Intersex? It's not really accurate, but it's the closest definition I can find on the fly.
@Ben: I didn't mean them either. I'm talking about the term in general. 'Receiver' is a more accurate definition than 'submissive' or 'effeminate'.
"Transgender woman" or "trans woman" will generally not offend anyone and are appropriate regardless of whether the person in question has had sex reassignment surgery and/or hormone treatment. "Chicks with dicks" and "shemale" will offend many people FYI.
"Genderqueer" is a commonly accepted PC term for people who identify as neither men nor women. Note that it describes gender identification, not physical characteristics. "Intersex" is the analogue that describes physical characteristics and would be used (for example) to describe someone with androgen insensitivity syndrome.
As I said, well-deserved black eye for calling someone 'shemale'. :P
In this scenario it would be a person with physical characteristics of both genders, but identifying as female. As far as I could tell, Intersex was the closest thing to it.
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you know...
Some people lose their tempers over the silliest things on this forum... and sometimes we push each other buttons too...
But at the end of the day we usually all want the same thing, a little new knowledge, a little new understanding, and something that makes us go "Wow, I didn't know THAT!"...
Now, did/do I need to know that we have so many "Sexual Freaks" on this site?!?!?!?!?! Did this make me feel better??
..... I think the light stands on tonight....
:P
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In our universe we handle the unpopularness of the term 'chicks with dicks' with a combination of the typical protest and a counter-voice insisting that, since it's a new thing for born women to have fully functioning johnsons (down to sperm and good motility), it's cool. Some of the latter claim they adopted the term themselves and with pride, others consider it not only a pejorative but an especially irritating one because it confuses the former use--males with breast augmentation,etc.--with the new one. And so on. Meanwhile, I get to play the cop NPC in question as a very cool and sexy chick, leaving the alpha-macho breeder horndogs in the party to have no choice but to be attracted to her. And then SHE gets to actually be a bit of a bigot towards more gender-deleted 'genderqueer' types, who want to obliterate classic gender and have the full range of body augs to do it.
C'mon, Reavs. A little Crying Game 2070 doesn't do it for you?
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Meanwhile, I get to play the cop NPC in question as a very cool and sexy chick, leaving the alpha-macho breeder horndogs in the party to have no choice but to be attracted to her. And then SHE gets to actually be a bit of a bigot towards more gender-deleted 'genderqueer' types, who want to obliterate classic gender and have the full range of body augs to do it.
C'mon, Reavs. A little Crying Game 2070 doesn't do it for you?
Many SR players are pretty jaded. We've had those Pornomancers causing feelings of attraction in all genders for quite a while now. Unfortunately my campaign with a Pornomancer ended. I was going to have their regular Mr. Johnson bring in a Pornomancer of his own for the negotiating session and treat him to his own medicine. Something like the James Bond/Silva scene.
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And that's why I see very little value in putting sexual situations in game. I'm very comfortable with my sexuality, but I don't feel the need to provide my party with pornography.
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I dunno, its fun to throw things at your players that make them a little creeped out and doesn't harm them....
Like Elliot.
Elliot is a nice, well manicured and groomed Troll. With a bondage fetish. So much so, that he will only discuss "work" while "relaxing" in the dominatrix club... in full latex and leather attire.... minus butt coverings.
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My group's fixer contact lives under a bar in Seattle called the Glitter Man. It's run by one of his old running buddies, and it's a gay bar. One of the bouncers is Diddy, a hulking troll who also is gay, and has candy-striped horns. He seems to like dwarves especially.
Yeah, we've got a pretty blasé attitude when it comes to "non-traditional" sexuality. It's pretty commonplace in Shadowrun. If you really want to make people uncomfortable, you throw that stuff in the D&D campaign. No one expects that incredibly beautiful elf lass to be sporting extra equipment down there.
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I'd say the discomfort for us comes not at all from proximity to bizarre sexualities, only a little from being attracted to a chick with a mortar in her pants, and much more from watching ourselves squirm and fumble with our shifting postures towards the gender-bizarre. As people become more self-conscious of how they tend to talk to women, men, x, y, etc., they get more flummoxed, embarrassed, stilted, overly 'cool with it,' and so on.
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Lickintoad, but DnD is classic High Fantasy, which is about escapism, while Cyberpunk is Science Fiction, and is about exploring the human condition.
It's interesting that more people step up and comment on exploring sexuality in SR than racism. Perhaps that's because it's the issue of the day, while racism seems to be thought of as a problem our parents faced? I love that we have such a medium for discussion. Though sadly, the people who most need to be disturbed in such a way are the least likely to tolerate such fluid/flexible NPCs.
I also find it interesting the OP's complaint was regarding statistical limitations, not fluff. For instance, the short life span of Orcs. From a story perspective, that's a major handicap. Orc fully mature before they are allowed to drive, to vote, or to drink. And they certainly reach old age or die long before they receive any sort of retirement. Is there Social Security in the 6th world? I might be reading too much into this, but that sounds munchkin. I want all the bonuses of a strong Troll, but I don't want any of the penalties.
BTW, if you are going to complain that a negative statistic is racist and does not belong, then you also need to remove the positive statistic bonuses, or it's just reverse racism. Double standard. Everybody has a max of 6 and starts a 1, and then you end up with a bunch of differently shaped humans, some with horns and some with pointy ears.
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It's interesting that more people step up and comment on exploring sexuality in SR than racism.
It may also be becasue the racism issues have been directly addressed by the game since first edition, so they're not exactly out there. Groups like Alamos 20k, Humanis and ORC as well as the whole orc underground plotline and a dozen others are direct explorations of racism using the fantasy world as a filter.
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It's interesting that more people step up and comment on exploring sexuality in SR than racism.
It may also be becasue the racism issues have been directly addressed by the game since first edition, so they're not exactly out there. Groups like Alamos 20k, Humanis and ORC as well as the whole orc underground plotline and a dozen others are direct explorations of racism using the fantasy world as a filter.
Which is kind of my point. We are used to having that discussion, while gender issues is relatively new in the public consciousness. And since racism has been part of the social discussion in SR since the beginning, complaining about racism in statistics seems pointless. It's there, it's part of the game.
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There aren't any new ways for me to distinguish the game's diegetic racism from its potentially funky resonance at the level of a designed object. Thoroughly detailing racist organisations in-game (which in turn, I find, do racism in a straightforward, incomplete and unchallenging way, given how ambiguous race concerns would be with a mentally inferiour species) does not really address my question. I think my question has gotten what it's going to get here, though, and I'm happy to leave it, but I'll probably keep defending it as a valid question if it gets dismissed or attacked with a hand wave.
There also aren't any other ways (or at least I don't intend to try to find them) to counter the assertion that bonuses without penalites is 'reverse racism,' an assertion many have made and none have actually attempted to defend or explain except Reaver. I don't think lack of equivalence in every respect connotes racism; I leave that to the hysterical witchhunting types. Equality in respect of physical makeup is relevant in the game world for combat and such, but I think it would not impact overall socioeconomic status a ton, just as it doesn't (or wouldn't, I'd aver) in the real world. Equality in terms of cognitive function is quite another matter, at least if we're talking about advancement, earning potential, sophisticated self-governance, etc. If there's a way around trolls and orks being hosed as a people because of inability to compete on a large scale with 'smarter' metahumans, I haven't heard it.
Now, in-game, that's a perfectly fine and interesting thing to pose. I've already stated that my discomfort with it comes more from the fact that metahumans erupt from humanity (and sure, if they're 'other species under thousands of years of genetic cover' or whatever this is circumvented somewhat, but I don't love that version--and I don't think it's absolute fact, given that magic is an incomprehensible x-factor at work), and this whole thing happens in a very near future, in a world that's ours+Gibson+some Tolkein. Too close to home for me. I think it's icky to have a species that so closely resembles slavers' description of slaves not that long ago. That's all. Not leveling a grand judgment.
The ork fluff thing doesn't raise the same alarm for me. Dying early sucks. Maybe it's genetic, maybe it's living conditions, maybe both and more. It sucks. I'm not weirded out by life sucking. Maybe they'd be discriminated against for it, maybe not; you could certainly see some heartless companies thrilling at the prospect of employees that didn't have to be fired or released with pension because right when they start to decline they just *die.* I don't think the game, or any art, owes it to anyone to be nice. Brutality and unfairness are facts. But being mentally inequivalent has always, always been the chief rationale of jingoism, of racist policy, of slavery, of the worst discrimination. Building it in is rough for me to stomach. I can't help but be nervous about a race of strength-monkeys with a lower IQ ceiling (and I still presume lower average) being around, typically, to supply the game muscle. I don't judge the game for it, or its players for it, it just reads like a conspicuously tidy omission from the history record to me, and my eye keeps coming to it.
But maybe I'm seeing the implications of the mechanic wrong, which is why I started the thread. Mechanically, it all makes sense, and stripped of ultimate consequence it's fine. Just trying to follow through to the worldwide ramifications of it.
I also find it interesting that there's more perk in the sexual identity talk than in the racism talk, and I don't know if it's because we're jaded or we think it's mostly solved or what, but 'solved' is not what I'd call it.
It's cool if no one else thinks it's worth thinking about. It's also cool if you keep talking about me in the 3rd person like I'm not in the room. And everyone loves being called pointless. Keep it up!
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Wait, you're IN the room?!?
<looks around at the other posters>
How many times do I have to tell you! After you stuff him in the closet, you turn off the light and lock the door!!!
:P
I dunno, I guess it isn't a big issue for me, because I look at the 'big picture' of it.
So human can go from 1 to 6 in mental stats.... That's fine. But that doesn't mean there are vast numbers of people running around out there with Einstien level intelligence... It just means that there COULD be. The vast majority of people will be in the 2 to 4 range. Just like now. And intelligence isn't really the only factor that leads to success either. Personality, social standing, ethics, morals, economic strata all play a factor as well. I am sure there are some REALLY intelligent people living in the slums of India.... And they will die there too.
Same thing for trolls. Most trolls will be in the 2-4 range for mental stats, which is on par for where the majority of humans are. But neurologically, that 4 is the upper limit of a trolls raw brain power... Which makes them still pretty darn smart.
Lastly, no matter what the mental stats, there is no limitations on skills that any race can take which would be a more racist policy then a limitation on an attribute. (sorry, you're a troll, you can take B/R skills cause trolls are dumb!)
Attributes (especially mental ones) are barely defined... All we can say is that the higher the number, the better, but that doesn't mean smarter.... A human with 6 in mental skills and a 0 in math would be stumped by calculus equations since he is defaulting.... But a troll with 2 mental attributed and 10 in math does calculus free hand! So which is really smarter??
Which leads into the next question: how do you define "intelligence"? IQ tests? Those have been shown to be racially biased. Skills knowledge? Wouldn't the moron with 15 different jobs over 10 years have more skills then the quantium physics professor who has only taught for the last 10 years?
In short, it's just a number! Don't get hung up on it! It is a game based, made up number used in the mechanics of the game to limit a subset of dice pools for balance against another bonus to an other subset of dice pools.
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Yeah, I think you're right, in the end. Not a real deal. Right after my last thing I suddenly was like...'actually, I'm cool.'
Good talk, cats. Game on. Next thread: degree of tech advancement. I've been thinking about the wildly advanced tech in SR vs. the minimal stuff in Elysium--or rather, the ways each world have pushed some things way forward and others back. Developing my thoughts.
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Yeah, I think you're right, in the end. Not a real deal. Right after my last thing I suddenly was like...'actually, I'm cool.'
Good talk, cats. Game on. Next thread: degree of tech advancement. I've been thinking about the wildly advanced tech in SR vs. the minimal stuff in Elysium--or rather, the ways each world have pushed some things way forward and others back. Developing my thoughts.
Elysium is far, far from minimal. It was unquestionably Shadowrun-esque in many places - I immediately thought of the game when I saw hacking-on-the-fly happening mid-combat. However, the level of technology in Elysium is so far developed beyond anything in the Shadowrun world that I'd be hesitant to draw too many comparisons.
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Not uniformly beyond, is it? Primitive exoskeletons. Very little medicine or body mod available on the cheap. Hacking somewhat less sophisticated (or maybe just conveniently broad); imagine something even today being able to turn a city's communications off (which I read as a simplicity of networks, not an ultra-high-tech regulation system).
But then, the healing beds were like magic in their degree of hypertech. Dunno. I saw it as different fields of crazy advanced, others of fairly cumbersome low-grade.
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I play a 2050 campaign and racisms is a big theme in the game.
We have overarching plot lines with Hands of Five, Metroplex Guard and others working towards an independent Seattle by blaming terrorist attacks on metahumans sponsored by radical elements in the orc underground / casacade orc tribe (which is currently, in my story, being run by a toxic shark shaman). We have constant tension in the team with their ongoing conflict with Humanis radicals (though they just rescued 60+ members from a secret prison... um.. its complicated),
Then there was their brief trip to Denver and interacting with the 'Unity' policlub and the shadowspirit who was running them. Involved a plot to blame chinese residents for a nuclear terrorist attack...
Then within the team our human japanese ex-corper whose homeland is mostly orc/troll free and thus feels, vocally, more than a bit uncomfortable when the team bunks down in the tacoma orc underground. And the orc adept constantly misunderstands every comment the human wujen makes... as a deleberate slur against orcs.
Strangly, the elves get a fair go, but then they are usually running the team.
And the NPCs often refer back to racist terms like tusker, trog, dandelion-eater, breeder etc.
Its a dystopia and racism is very real part of the setting. The heroes get to try and make a difference, whether its taking free jobs to provide medical supplies to the orc underground, or by taking the battle to the racists themselves (Hands of Five, the Metroplex Guard...).
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I like tha your guys are not just protagonists, but maybe also heroes sometimes. Our guys, by design, are struggling mightily with whether their sense of purpose extends beyond self-interest. Every time they pretend it doesn't, they erode further inside. It gets gnarly.
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and sure, if they're 'other species under thousands of years of genetic cover' or whatever this is circumvented somewhat, but I don't love that version--and I don't think it's absolute fact, given that magic is an incomprehensible x-factor at work), and this whole thing happens in a very near future, in a world that's ours+Gibson+some Tolkein. Too close to home for me. I think it's icky to have a species that so closely resembles slavers' description of slaves not that long ago. That's all. Not leveling a grand judgment.
Ok you dont like it and think the game designer are racists because of that.
That is too bad because, even If you dont like it, it is exactly what is in the game. And IT IS AN ABSOLUTE FACT!
Your griveance only exist because you invented it by changing the way the game is.
You said it is racist because Orks are humans, we corrected you and point it how they are an entirely different species, and how it always was this way in the game world. They you said : ok, but I dont like it, so I dont accept it, do I change it so the Orks really are humans and this game really is racist.
YOU Sir, really have a problem that no web forum would ever cure. I am out of this discussion right now because your answer always will be : "I dont like your facts, so your facts are wrong and I am right". That is just pathetic.
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There's no need to attack other posters - if you're seeing trolling, just move on, don't stop to feed.
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You're right. Thanks. I always forget in the moment that internet manners call for a different response than live ones.
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The Bell Curve
The notion that all human ethnicities have equal mental genetics is far from solid fact. Controversial though it may be, I find that notion highly suspect. You see intelligence variation in wolves, house dogs, foxes, coyotes, etc. The idea that it wouldn't be the same for humans is politically correct claptrap. That said, only a vile human being would suggest that 'variation' means 'inferior'. Is SR racist against humans because trolls can lift 2-3 times as much weight? Does it racistly imply that humans are all physically anemic, pathetic, bookworms? That's a silly idea. Furthermore, we're only talking about averages here. A smart troll(or genius) will be considerably smarter than the average human on the street, you, me, the other people on this forum...To respond with anger over the very idea of genetic diversity is foolish and indicative NOT of tolerance but of ignorance.
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You're right. Thanks. I always forget in the moment that internet manners call for a different response than live ones.
Actually, the internet manners are "Report and ignore" while the RL manners are "ignore and walk away."
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Not in my town, they aren't. I am getting why it has to be that way online--a place I pretty much never comment in--but the 'report' element is much too schoolmarmish for me. As for live, I walk away from children and insane people. The rest I'd prefer to deal with directly.
I do find it fascinating that many, many rules of live conversation and public debate can suffer a serious rogering online with little to no forum protest, but getting defensive or calling those rogerings out is a very big no-no. In some other essay I'll have to lament the effects of this reversal on social commerce.
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In some other essay I'll have to lament the effects of this reversal on social commerce.
I can understand moderators ending flame wars, as Ad Hominems add very little of anything to that commerce. But generally, I agree with your sentiment. Whining pantywaists who default to 'report' anytime someone doesn't agree with them are big problem. Actually, they wouldn't be a problem at all except when, say, facebook, decides to give them credence by caving in.
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Of course this is a consensual forum with rules that you agree to when you sign up, including a prohibition on personal attacks and - incidentally- political and religious discussion. If you don't like the rules don't sign up.
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If you don't like the rules don't sign up.
If you don't agree to follow the rules don't sign up
Fixed!
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If you don't like the rules don't sign up.
If you don't agree to follow the rules don't sign up
Fixed!
Fine, but I'm not sure I see the point of agreeing to follow the rules and then hanging out complaining about it.
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Fine, but I'm not sure I see the point of agreeing to follow the rules and then hanging out complaining about it.
Err, because I find the trade off of:
Access to other people's ideas and thoughts;exchange of information
For
Putting up with something I don't particularly like
To be a favorable exchange? Also, the forum rules don't say that no one can express dislike for the forum rules...at least I hope they don't!
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No they don't. Describing people who DO like the forum rules as "whining pantywaists" isn't calculated to generate good feeling though.
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"whining pantywaists"
I didn't mean to generalize that about anyone who would ever hit a 'report' button ever, anytime, anywhere. Let me clarify:
There is a trend(far beyond the small scope of these forums) for people's 'feelings' to take precedence over open communication, freedom of speech. My 'whining pantywaists' are people who use report on people with whom they disagree in an attempt to silence those people. This is a frequent occurrence in many forums, conventions, etc. It also fosters thin skin and there are many people who cannot differentiate logically deconstructing a position from a personal attack. And those people WILL hit a 'report' button the moment a phrase, say, 'whining panywaists' gets used. I think it's normally pretty clear when open hostility and attacks are getting out of hand. The slightest insult, to my mind, does not remotely qualify.
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Whatever. I find that generally that sort of belief is held by people who have abused the rules, been punished for it, and created a persecution complex for themselves out of the experience. I don't know you however, so you could genuinely believe that incivility and rudeness fosters a free exchange of ideas. That hasn't been my experience (and I've been known to slug with the worst of them on my off days) but you're entitled to your opinion.
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I report people. I admit it.
But I report them for the vulgar content meaty middle of most people's discourse.
You want to disagree with me, great! I will argue the merits of a topic back and forth with you all day long as long as A) you don't get insulting and B) keep an open mind...
There are LOTS of people I have had discussions with that get heated.. (all4, Benny, Mirikon, and Mara :D )but as long as thing stay respectful things stay cool.
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What I can't stand is an Internet forum and its rules of conduct acting as a petri dish for a passive-aggressive argument style--a style that, I suppose, falls under the umbrella definition of 'trolling.' Mustering an imperfect argument and then finishing it up with what postures as a logical coup de grace, but really is just a chance to call your opponent's stance (or just straight-up your opponent) hypocritical, limited, small-scope, etc. is so enshrined as a stock feature of etiquette that people seem to then extract the substance from such pusillanimous comments and assume the rest was just acceptable style. It's not only a massive drain on substantive debate, it's a deep offense to the more bitchin brands of gods. Whose table would you rather fit in at--Wormtongue's or Hrothgar's? I agree about vulgarity and incivility, but it's a prim and deluded scene that only notices such things when they're dressed in bar clothes.
Meanwhile, Shade, I'd like to think you're not attributing anger about race equality offenses to my argument. I mean, I'm done and I'm likely not going to disabuse you of the mistaken impression if that's what you saw, but still.
I do think the canine analogy is not apt; see earlier bit on breeds. Iffy scales of intelligence and occasional studies designed to describe a pack mammal based on how well they integrate with humans and obey their commands are hardly comparable to the volume of info we have about humanity. And breeds are bred. Microselection. Races? Theyre largely nothing. More genetic differentiation between Serbs and Englishmen than between the Yoruba and Southern American Scots. To begin to identify substantial differences in various mental capacities like you're suggesting would be hands-down grounds to split off different subspecies. You'd need quite a lot of natural breeding selection to get that going, to boot.
As we learn more about the brain? Sure. Possible. Any evidence so far? No.
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See, I disagree there, benedictmercury. I do not think that forum rules make people passive aggressive. I think
passive-aggressive people use the rules to hide behind. I have seen people who, frankly, dance so close to rules
violations that you know they know the exact limits where the Mods will draw the lines.
Would it be nice if we didn't need rules to regulate behavior? Yes, it would. However, frankly, the Internet is full of
people who use the anonymity of the internet as a shield. They attack and harrass people because they get some
sort of sick pleasure from it. In a perfect world, this would not happen. Alas, we do not live in a perfect world.
I will say, though, benedictmercury, that while I was initially going to dismiss this thread as another person determined
to see racism in anything, you were actually polite and rather systematic in your approach. And, when an alternative
explanation for the mechanics was present that a) made sense and b) worked with both the game world and the mechanics,
you gave it due consideration. A lot more mature of a reaction then I would expect from many people on the Internet.
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I think we mean the same thing. I agree with your description.
As for the rest, I really appreciate that, Mara. Some read sarcasm, insinuations or attacks into my posts that I didn't intend, which I've found frustrating. And then eventually I lost my temper with the (barely) veiled undermining bits, about which I'm still embarrassed. I lose my cool at hysterical misinterpretations and snide manners.
Heated topics in this thread. Worth examining. Bound to ruffle feathers. Thanks again to everyone with productive contributions. I'm ready to call it a day on the whole thing if you guys are.
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As we learn more about the brain? Sure. Possible. Any evidence so far? No.
This statement is exactly what I consider fallacious. There is plenty of 'evidence' for BOTH cases(intelligence variation vs. no variation) but nothing CONCLUSIVE. Those are not equivalent statements. And the scientific classification of species and subspecies are very nebulous. Under current reasoning a chihuahua is more closely related to a husky than the husky is to a wolf. Because of behavioral differences. Yet those behavioral differences diminish greatly even after only a couple of generations of domestication. It's not so cut and dry.
Judging purely on phenotype, I can only imagine that an alien would classify myself, a person of Asian descent and a person of African descent as different subspecies. The behavioral differences across those cultures is significant as well. Of course, it may not even be a matter of genetics in the fictional game world. Lower income, lower living standard correlate with lower intelligence(so far as we can measure). The relationship is not causally one-directional. Being raised in the ghetto will diminish your output relative to direct family members raised in different environments. The cause of ANY of this isn't really that clear. But I just don't think it's unreasonable to assume minor differences among such obviously different phenotypes. Of course, in the end...we all know it's primarily about game balance and interesting and different player choices.
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They attack and harrass people because they get some sort of sick pleasure from it. In a perfect world, this would not happen. Alas, we do not live in a perfect world.
A man much smarter than I had the correct response to those very people. It was:
“I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.”
It's not that internet trolls don't exist. It's that silencing trolls should always be secondary to preserving open communication. Someone can have an important thing to add to discourse. The fact that they choose to say it in an offensive way should not relegate the idea itself to censorship. Being thin skinned has no value while being able to formulate a correct idea, even if enunciated poorly and offensively, has value.
EDIT: To be clear, I'm NOT implying that this forum does silence people. To my knowledge, it does not. Nor have I ever had a report filed against me in ANY internet venue of which I'm aware. But someone earlier made the statement of something like: 'people who don't like abuse and report buttons are always trolls in my experience'. It must be convenient to go through life assuming guilt or wrongdoing of anyone who disagrees with you. It spares you all that actual thought. After all, there's no need to consider the opinion of a troll, once you've branded someone as such.
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As we learn more about the brain? Sure. Possible. Any evidence so far? No.
This statement is exactly what I consider fallacious. There is plenty of 'evidence' for BOTH cases(intelligence variation vs. no variation) but nothing CONCLUSIVE. Those are not equivalent statements. And the scientific classification of species and subspecies are very nebulous. Under current reasoning a chihuahua is more closely related to a husky than the husky is to a wolf. Because of behavioral differences. Yet those behavioral differences diminish greatly even after only a couple of generations of domestication. It's not so cut and dry.
Judging purely on phenotype, I can only imagine that an alien would classify myself, a person of Asian descent and a person of African descent as different subspecies. The behavioral differences across those cultures is significant as well. Of course, it may not even be a matter of genetics in the fictional game world. Lower income, lower living standard correlate with lower intelligence(so far as we can measure). The relationship is not causally one-directional. Being raised in the ghetto will diminish your output relative to direct family members raised in different environments. The cause of ANY of this isn't really that clear. But I just don't think it's unreasonable to assume minor differences among such obviously different phenotypes. Of course, in the end...we all know it's primarily about game balance and interesting and different player choices.
Well, a lot of things we talk about are subjective... even the tests we run are subjective :D For a long time, IQ tests were thought of to be the best way to determine intelligence.... and a rating system was developed (you know, so those assholes out there can go "I have an IQ of 121! listen to me now!") but then some people disagreed... and test were done, and done, and done again. until you get to now, where people finally admit that IQ tests MAY not be the best way to determine intelligence (BUT IT STILL COULD BE!!!!!!!).
As you point out too, a lot of what we accept as "evidence" comes from our social background. If your social back ground comes from a teaching that says "Yours elders are the wisest", you would question anything said that went against the word of your elders.... regardless of who said it. And, depending on your social model, morals, ethnic views, education, and world view, you may believe that communication between people outside of your "zone" to be impossible. And you could be right.
But we still try :D And for the most part we get through to each other..... but not until we figure out exactly what the other person means as "Evidence". From there we try to frame our conversation to get our points and views across. And from there, we get 21 pages of topic...... with 18 of them being "SCREW YOU!"-"NO SCREW YOU" posts :D
I have found these rules to be helpful on the internets and in dealing with people on the internets.... (But, yes, you may have found others, or different ones. But yours don't matter. My evidence says so! :D )
1: THICK SKIN REQUIRED
Currently something like 4.5 BILLION people are online. Considering that I can't go shopping without me running into some asshat I desperately hate, the chances are good I will run into a lot of those in the web. For whatever reason, those same people seem to like saying and doing to most inappropriate things. (I am guessing that they get beat up a lot). Add to that, the "invisibility" of the web, and people think they can do whatever they want! Deal with it, or get off. The web ain't going to change.
2: English don't mean English
Just cause the text on the screen is in English, doesn't mean that the other people "talking" on the web speak it, or think it. And just cause you think "English" don't mean understand "English" either. A Fag. A torch, A rubber. A loaf. These are mean different things to different people. Don't assume you know an insult from a complement, you just may be surprised at what your "online buddy-buddy" actually called you :P
3: Watch the world burn
No matter what you say, no matter what you do, there always seems to be that retard on a forum banging head into the wall while screaming "The sky is red, the sky is red!!" This is what the ignore button is for. Learn it. Use it. Love it. Honest it take the stress out of the day, and keep you from going "There went 10 minutes of my life i'll never get back" after reading this moron's new pabblem post about what nerf/OP/cheat/whine is his newest issue. And you can bad mouth them, and not worry about their response! (it's kinda fun!)
4: Laugh at everything!
No matter the topic, laugh at it. Good humor can carry you a long way in a debate. Just don't share it. No one likes to hear someone go "LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL YOU'RE A MORON!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!" I know you're doing it (cause I do it ALL THE TIME HERE!!!) :D Just keep it out of your posts as much as you can. And if you can't, might I suggest Rules 3 or 1 for you to try out?
*******
Folks, we all take what is said here far too seriously :D Sit back, relax, have a beer, ENJOY your self.
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EDIT: To be clear, I'm NOT implying that this forum does silence people. To my knowledge, it does not. Nor have I ever had a report filed against me in ANY internet venue of which I'm aware. But someone earlier made the statement of something like: 'people who don't like abuse and report buttons are always trolls in my experience'. It must be convenient to go through life assuming guilt or wrongdoing of anyone who disagrees with you. It spares you all that actual thought. After all, there's no need to consider the opinion of a troll, once you've branded someone as such.
It must be convenient to go through life misquoting people when the original text is just above you in the same thread.
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Okay, fine. I can go that way.
Whatever. I find that generally that sort of belief is held by people who have abused the rules, been punished for it, and created a persecution complex for themselves out of the experience.
You are directly stating that you believe people who have a problem with the rules are generally people who abuse the rules. The direct implication you are making is that there is no valid reason to disagree with the rules. This creates a scenario where the rules are always valid and correct. After all, anyone who disagrees with them is not disagreeing with them out of principle but instead of out self-interest. See how that works? You attack someone's motives immediately while dismissing the content of their argument. Exactly what I said above. I just shortened it. If I am misinterpreting your position, please let me know.
] I don't know you however, so you could genuinely believe that incivility and rudeness fosters a free exchange of ideas. That hasn't been my experience (and I've been known to slug with the worst of them on my off days) but you're entitled to your opinion.
Incorrect. I don't believe that incivility necessarily fosters free exchange of ideas. Rather, what I believe is that censorship whatever the reason, by definition, inherently inhibits the exchange of ideas. I'm not saying being rude is good, I'm saying that censoring is far more wrong than merely being rude. And censoring directly erodes the exchange of ideas.
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Actually no that's not what I said. You might try reading it again.
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Which part? Please clarify. As I stated, if I'm misunderstanding please explain how. Communication will not be improved be me re-reading it for a 5th or 6th time. It needs to be restated to clear up my misapprehension.
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Right, the internet is a strange place. People will say things to each other they never would in person - why? They are largely anonymous. I have a long held belief that to many people the person staring at the other screen does not exist - this person goes unseen, unheard by voice, and the only evidence to the reader of their existence is text. Not even the graphical interaction of a video game.
Its pretty easy to behave poorly under such circumstances.
There is also a lack of fear of reprisal. At most, on these forums, you are likely to get a ban (I don't think anyone on these forums would be so poorly behaved as to go much farther than that... then again, we are talking about runners here.) so its not a heavy sentence - this can breed a lack of civility.
End of the day, here is how you deal with someone being hateful, insultive, or, even stupid. Don't try to change their minds. Don't argue with them - there will be those on the internet, who will welcome debate in the spirit of what it is: a mental exercise and chance to learn something, perhaps a chance to lay one's own incorrect beliefs to rest. Many however, are not going to be such shining examples of hope for metahumanity. Many are just going to be the stereotypical hate generator. If you try to change these people's minds, you will end up with a headache and high blood pressure, possibly even the realization that it just isn't worth it.
There is also the possibility that you just might be wrong, and that'll make you 'that guy'. Don't be that guy.
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I'm with Reaver. Let's have a beer. Dude, all those exclamation points give me a headache and I may continue to believe your relativism regarding race is unsound, but I really like your spirit. I'll argue with you anytime.
I'm such an Internet comment board virgin that I only just now, in this thread, learned what I can now easily see everyone mature in these matters has known for a decade or more: that the absence of any threat of reprisal can't be solved with the techniques you'd use to solve that shit in a live conversation. A shaming piece of 'what you just said was snide, self-aggrandizing, misrepresentative and contemptuous' will end your woes live if you carry weight, but here it just starts fires. Which, you know, you'd think would be obvious, but it never occurred to me to think about it. I truly am that net-tarded.
Leave it to a racism question to devolve into a study in online manners.
I'm out. May pop in at some point in the future at the site if I have a good one, but otherwise I'm outta here. Don't really hang out online. Reavs, Crunch, Mara et al--take her easy. Other guys that ended up offended--sorry I peeved you or you misunderstood me. Still other guys I beefed with and generally found haughty or unpleasant--no hard feelings.
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Amusing story: Once while discussing stuff from a Forensic anthropology course I was taking in an
online chat environment, by pointing out the superficial(the brain cavity is the same size and shape, regardless
of features like a thicker or more sloped brow) used to determined ethnicity of bones(which is needed for
consulting missing persons databases to try and identify remains), I was called "racist." (Of course, they
really got upset when I pointed out that there was a set of formulas for determining height from bone
fragments that is extremely accurate, but ONLY for meso-americans, and that it literally does not work
with any other ethnicity.)
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Amusing story: Once while discussing stuff from a Forensic anthropology course I was taking in an
online chat environment, by pointing out the superficial(the brain cavity is the same size and shape, regardless
of features like a thicker or more sloped brow) used to determined ethnicity of bones(which is needed for
consulting missing persons databases to try and identify remains), I was called "racist." (Of course, they
really got upset when I pointed out that there was a set of formulas for determining height from bone
fragments that is extremely accurate, but ONLY for meso-americans, and that it literally does not work
with any other ethnicity.)
hmmm.. interesting.
DO you know if there is a separate formula for say, eastern, or European? or is this unique only to meso-american?
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Well, if it makes y'all feel any better, I just joined this forum and I have to say that a 13 page argument about the Civil Rights of Trolls is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard of. That's not a shot at anybody specifically, but for fucks sake, will you dudes step back and realize how absurd that conversation is?
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Well, if it makes y'all feel any better, I just joined this forum and I have to say that a 13 page argument about the Civil Rights of Trolls is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard of. That's not a shot at anybody specifically, but for fucks sake, will you dudes step back and realize how absurd that conversation is?
Be glad you weren't here for the 20 page discussion about Do French Canadians get Rights then. :P
Also the answer to the above: Yes, they get Rights. They also get Lefts, Right uppercuts and Jabs.
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Well, if it makes y'all feel any better, I just joined this forum and I have to say that a 13 page argument about the Civil Rights of Trolls is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard of. That's not a shot at anybody specifically, but for fucks sake, will you dudes step back and realize how absurd that conversation is?
So..... you come in, read the first 5 posts... go "Crap, about trolls and metahuman rights, yuck!" THEN stay and read all the posts?!?!?
Buddy If you hate the topic on hand, DON'T READ IT! But by coming in and displaying a "You are a bunch of Morons!" in your tone and attitude isn't going to score you much clout on the forums......And being so new, Clout is something you might want to gather.....
Just saying....
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Well, if it makes y'all feel any better, I just joined this forum and I have to say that a 13 page argument about the Civil Rights of Trolls is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard of. That's not a shot at anybody specifically, but for fucks sake, will you dudes step back and realize how absurd that conversation is?
And you see, here I actually thought it was a fascinating discussion. One of the things with discussions like this is
that they tend to put a spotlight on those areas of Shadowrun, whether it be mechanics or setting or both, that many
people don't usually want to deal with. Remember that, originally, Orks and Trolls pretty much WERE being handled
as metaphors for the civil rights discussions, a way to address those issues without having to deal with with the RL
politics. If you are having people put a group of Orks in poor, inner city neighborhoods, letting them be killed by police
for fun with impunity, etc, etc, well..people can't get up in arms about you doing bad things to (insert ethnic group here)
because its being done to ORKS..they aren't even human! That is an aspect of the setting that is there that GMs can
explore if they really want to.
And, remember that part of the setting really is Meta-human rights activists, Mother of Metahumans, vs Human
Supremacistgroups, Humanis Policlub. There is a reason that people were willing to join the Universal Borhterhood,
after all...there isa reason why the one hotel that provided safe haven for Metahumans during the Night of Rage gets
specific mention of that fact in Seattle 2070, and, I am pretty sure, the original Seattle Sourcebook and New Seattle.
Now, you don't want to deal with that at your table? You don't have to. There is stuff I don't address at my table because
of my group meeting in public. However, just because you don't want to address those issues at your table, and go for
a different style then someone else does, does not mean that is is wrong, or "absurd," that someone else WOULD. This
thread spawned out of someone uncomfortable with those issues at his table. It has, for the most part, been about
those issues and how they cross from setting thematics into the mechanics. That is absolutely not absurd.
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Mungo nevah gonna goze ta da Quebek 'gain.
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Well, if it makes y'all feel any better, I just joined this forum and I have to say that a 13 page argument about the Civil Rights of Trolls is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard of. That's not a shot at anybody specifically, but for fucks sake, will you dudes step back and realize how absurd that conversation is?
You know, when you go to a party, and you think everyone is an idiot... good chance you might be the problem. Just sayin'
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And you see, here I actually thought it was a fascinating discussion...
...That is absolutely not absurd.
Sure, sure, I get all that, but the conversation was base d the idea that a built in stat neg for trolls was somehow racist. That's nuts. That's like suggesting a default stat neg for playing a chimp instead of a human is racist. They're not the same animal, BY DESIGN. I address these kinds of Social Issues A LOT in my games (Hey, I'm in San Francisco, it's what we do), but that angle of the conversation is cracked.
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Personally I disagree. There is almost never any discussion or question to be voiced that is simply wrong in asking it. The moment you tell someone they're an idiot simply for asking a question, even if you think the question is absurd or the answer should be obvious, is the moment you start curtailing freedom of thought, and that is a seriously troubling notion.
Now, don't get me wrong, I personally don't think the stat blocks are racist at all, because the metaraces ARE in fact different in their capabilities and strengths and weaknesses, physical and mental. However, and here's the important thing about this...what if the stat blocks WERE racist? This is why discussion might be short, it might be seemingly obvious, but it's still important.
Guy 1: "The stat blocks are racist, because it presumes trolls are dumber than other races."
Guy 2: "But how is that racist? Sure, other races might have faster mental faculties, but trolls are physically more imposing and have higher natural strength and stamina."
Guy 1: "Yeah, but the mental attributes of all the races should be the same, just the physical should change."
Guy 2: "But that's not really the way it works, is it? It says Trolls have dermal bone deposits and have developed to be tougher and more physically powerful than the other races. Therefor, it makes sense that their skulls are thicker, bones denser, and their evolution has favoured brawn over intelligence."
Guy 1: "But how is that fair for Trolls? They're relegated to being second class citizens because they can't be as smart as the other races."
Guy 2: "Well the second-class citizen disparity between them and the 'smarter' races is the product of society, not evolution. Besides, look at it from the other angle. In a civilization that prized martial prowess and brutal, warrior culture, Trolls would be kings and the other races would be the second class-citizens. No other metaspecies can ever be as tough or strong or physically dominating as Trolls. Just not in the evolutionary dice. It just so happens that the societies and civilized cultures of the world of the 2070s happen to be a bit more advanced and cosmopolitan, so they prize brute force slightly less and favour higher learning and studious education slightly more. And that's likely the angle the game designers wanted to reflect in the stat blocks."
Guy 1: "Interesting perspective. I don't necessarily agree, but it's interesting nonetheless."
Guy 1 and Guy 2 earn Achievement: Agreeing To Disagree!
Or, you could do this instead...
Guy 1: "The stat blocks are racist, because it presumes trolls are dumber than other races."
Guy 2: "That is the dumbest shit I have ever heard."
Guy 1: "..."
I'll let you pick which one you think provokes discussion and intelligent debate more.
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wow, shock
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Mod Warning: This is an extremely flammable topic. Be careful.
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Wow...
Talk about a trip down memory lane!
Lets not do that again.
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wow, shock
This thread was 10 years old.
Please avoid thread necromancy (http://"https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/842591148788713898/425C2E8321A21EC99282FC970279E5DC5DB8754A/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false").