Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Shadowstep on <02-04-11/0402:03>
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I just want to make sure I have the rule down right.
You can buy a customized cyber limb at the start of the game with: 5 STR, 6 AGI and 6 Body (assuming ur human) since the avail is BASE 4 and you add 2 STR, 3 AGI and 3 BODY for +8 Avail.
Then using enhancements you can add +4 to those Stats (provided you have the capacity), since they have individual availabilities of Rate x 3R. Ending up with 9 STR 10 AGI 10 BODY on your limb.
Assuming you only add 1 Limb would you determine your "total weighted stats" (when you need it) based on (LIMB + MEAT x 5)/6 ?
What happens if you have Armor 2 (Ratex4) on your Limb? Do you end up with 2 more total armor? (IE 8/6=6/4 (Armor Vest )+2/2).
What if you have 4 Limbs each with Armor 2. Would you have +8/8 armor? (IE: 14/12 = 6/4 (Armor Vest) + 8/8)
Say you add in a Body and Head each with 2 Armor does it go up to +12/12?
Then you put on a helmet for +2/2 more and a Full Body suit for 6/2 more?
Does this all stack? If so, using a lowly Armor Vest and Armor 2 (instead of 4) you end up with 26/20 = 6/4+6/2+12/12+2/2.
Seems like it's getting to be too much...
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Assuming you only add 1 Limb would you determine your "total weighted stats" (when you need it) based on (LIMB + MEAT x 5)/6 ?
Me personally I only calculate Torso,2 Arms and 2 Legs for the Average of the attributes
A)its easier to Calculate (Divide by 5)
B) ImO its nonsense to Calculate the Attributes of the Head
What happens if you have Armor 2 (Ratex4) on your Limb? Do you end up with 2 more total armor? (IE 8/6=6/4 (Armor Vest )+2/2).
Exactly :D
What if you have 4 Limbs each with Armor 2. Would you have +8/8 armor? (IE: 14/12 = 6/4 (Armor Vest) + 8/8)
Say you add in a Body and Head each with 2 Armor does it go up to +12/12?
Then you put on a helmet for +2/2 more and a Full Body suit for 6/2 more?
Does this all stack? If so, using a lowly Armor Vest and Armor 2 (instead of 4) you end up with 26/20 = 6/4+6/2+12/12+2/2.
Yes,Yes,Yes & Yes... oh and Yes
with affirmative Dance
medicineman
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Me personally I only calculate Torso,2 Arms and 2 Legs for the Average of the attributes
A)its easier to Calculate (Divide by 5)
B) ImO its nonsense to Calculate the Attributes of the Head
I went with Arms (2), Legs (2), Body (1), BASE (1).
Using the 5 part system...a person with 1 BODY, 1 STR, 1 AGI and 2 cyber arms, 2 cyber legs and a cyber torso would not be affected by his BASE stats, since he replaced everything. His torso though is just a container...so shouldn't his BASE attributes matter in some albeit small way?
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Does this all stack? If so, using a lowly Armor Vest and Armor 2 (instead of 4) you end up with 26/20 = 6/4+6/2+12/12+2/2.
Yes,Yes,Yes & Yes... oh and Yes
I guess the last question is WHAT THE FREK do you do to hurt someone with 26/20...I don't see how even a bad ass weapon would hurt that let alone someone with 10-13 body on top of that.
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You can buy a customized cyber limb at the start of the game with: 5 STR, 6 AGI and 6 Body (assuming ur human) since the avail is BASE 4 and you add 2 STR, 3 AGI and 3 BODY for +8 Avail.
Then using enhancements you can add +4 to those Stats (provided you have the capacity), since they have individual availabilities of Rate x 3R. Ending up with 9 STR 10 AGI 10 BODY on your limb.
You can only add +3 as an enchament if you dont have a cyber torso, also human's augmented attribute max is 9.
Does this all stack? If so, using a lowly Armor Vest and Armor 2 (instead of 4) you end up with 26/20 = 6/4+6/2+12/12+2/2.
Yes,Yes,Yes & Yes... oh and Yes
I guess the last question is WHAT THE FREK do you do to hurt someone with 26/20...I don't see how even a bad ass weapon would hurt that let alone someone with 10-13 body on top of that.
Magic,Toxins,S&S ammo,Taser
Or if you just want kill him, a gauss rifle.
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Hacking him it is very difficult but if you get him, he is D.E.D.! (sound bite the Gamers 8))
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I went with Arms (2), Legs (2), Body (1), BASE (1).
Using the 5 part system...a person with 1 BODY, 1 STR, 1 AGI and 2 cyber arms, 2 cyber legs and a cyber torso would not be affected by his BASE stats, since he replaced everything. His torso though is just a container...so shouldn't his BASE attributes matter in some albeit small way?
The Base BOD is still in Use for Toxins,Neurostun,Narcoject,etc.his AGI and STR are totally replaced (no original Muscles anymore)
And No, the Base wouldn't be used for calculating the Average only the cybered Stats
with a cyberd up Dance
Medicineman
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Quote from: Shadowstep on Today at 04:02:03 AM
You can buy a customized cyber limb at the start of the game with: 5 STR, 6 AGI and 6 Body (assuming ur human) since the avail is BASE 4 and you add 2 STR, 3 AGI and 3 BODY for +8 Avail.
Then using enhancements you can add +4 to those Stats (provided you have the capacity), since they have individual availabilities of Rate x 3R. Ending up with 9 STR 10 AGI 10 BODY on your limb.
You can only add +3 as an enchament if you dont have a cyber torso, also human's augmented attribute max is 9.
1) Regarding the +3 limit on enhancement seems to only be for Standard Cyberlimbs not Customized ones.
"" On standard cyberlimbs, a cybertorso is required to have cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3."" (SR4A 343)
2) Ah it seems I found something covering Cyberlimbs being subject to a Augmented max. I must have missed it before.
"Increases above the natural attribute maximum and up to the augmented maximum must be handled as cyberlimb enhancements, with the standard Capacity and nuyen costs (Cyberlimb Enhancements, p. 344)"
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The quick and the dirty:
Standard Cyberlimbs: These are the base "off-the-rack" model that anyone can use. They come with all Attributes set to 3 and the only way to raise the Attributes is by putting on enhancements.
Customized Cyberlimbs: These are tailored to the customer. You begin with whatever Attribute scores you want in the limbs, up to your natural/unaugmented maximum, paying only extra cred/Availability for scores above 3. If you go above your natural maximum, then you have to add Enhancements to raise the Attribute (up to a maximum of your augmented max).
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So are Standard Limbs subject to the Augmented Maximums as well? I ask b.c. one of our players says he could only find the rule stating it, under customized limbs. He seems to think that if you go with a 3/3/3 you can (availability permitting) reach a 10 via a rank 7 enhancement as a human even though you augmented max is 9.
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Augmented Maximums apply to ALL Cyberware, Bioware, Nanotech and Genetech. They are a brick wall you cannot get around. ;)
Edit: I should point out that the Exceptional Attribute Positive Quality does increase the character's natural maximum (and, by extension, their augmented maximum) for the chosen attribute. So your player could get all that up to 10, if he buys all three attributes with the Exc. Att quality, but that is frowned upon by most GM's (especially since that means spending 60 BPs).
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If someone is investing that many BP's in such a narrow niche, I would, as a GM, discourage them from doing so. Not because "it's broken" or any such thing (it's not), but because that many points might hamper their character until they actually could take advantage of the new maximum.
It's a question of over-specialization, which can be a dangerous road to travel.
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I should point out that the Exceptional Attribute Positive Quality does increase the character's natural maximum
So does Genetic Optimisation which is wahay cheaper (in BP) ;)
but...I think we're dancing away from the topic :)
with a cheaper Dance
Medicineman
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I should point out that the Exceptional Attribute Positive Quality does increase the character's natural maximum
So does Genetic Optimisation which is wahay cheaper (in BP) ;)
but...I think we're dancing away from the topic :)
with a cheaper Dance
Medicineman
Thank you for putting the mental image of a troll with Exc. Att and GenOp (Str) in my head, allowing him to get to an 18 Str.
Oh, and my players thank you as well. ;)
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I'll make up some examples of how the numbers play out, using the Street Samurai (SR4A, 110) as our test dummy.
This sammy has Body 4, Agility 5, Strength 5. She has two obvious custom cyberarms (each built with B4/A5/S5), both with Armor 2, Enhanced Agility 3, Enhanced Strength 2.
On any tasks that use just her arms (say, shooting a gun, or hanging on to something), her Agility is 8 and Strength is 7. On something that doesn't involve arms at all (say, running), she uses her base stats: Agility 5, Strength 5. If she tries something that involves all her limbs (like climbing or lifting something), she uses the average: Agility would be ((8+8+5+5)/4) = 6.5, rounded down to 6. Strength would be ((7+7+5+5)/4) = 6.
In cases where it's not terribly obvious whether her legs are really important, I would say to opt in favor of the character -- for example, swordfighting should use every part of the body, but that would work against the character who didn't opt for full replacements, and make melee attacks inferior to gunplay for this sort of sammy.
If, later on, the sammy wanted to improve the enhancements in her left arm (the right arm's full), she could not buy more than 1 in Strength or 3 in Body without also getting a cybertorso (required to get an enhancement of +4 or more). If she did this, she could get up to 1 Agility, 2 Strength, or 4 Body. Any higher would put her over her augmented maximum of 9, which is one of those "no you can't" areas.
Hope this clears everything up.
Situations can also change this. Hauling something off the floor would obviously use all the limbs (even if you lift with your back, your legs still need to support the weight) would call on the average; lifting up a teammate who's dangling off the side of a cliff (where the sammy is lying down, holding the poor schlub with one hand) would just involve the arm in question.
Two cyberlimbs would add 2 boxes to her Physical Condition Monitor (Stun would be unaffected). The limbs' 2 points of armor would stack with any worn armor, giving her 4/4 armor by default. With an armor vest (6/4), her armor would be 10/8.
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If, later on, the sammy wanted to improve the enhancements in her left arm (the right arm's full), she could not buy more than 1 in Strength or 3 in Body without also getting a cybertorso (required to get an enhancement of +4 or more). If she did this, she could get up to 1 Agility, 2 Strength, or 4 Body. Any higher would put her over her augmented maximum of 9, which is one of those "no you can't" areas.
As far as I've seen, that rule seems to only apply to non-customized cyber limbs. Let me know if I'm reading it wrong.
Standard limbs: These prosthetics are basic off-the-shelf models.
All standard cyberlimbs come with Body, Strength, and Agility attributes
of 3. These values can only be augmented by cyberlimb enhancements.
On standard cyberlimbs, a cybertorso is required to have
cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3.
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Augmented Maximum is the absolute maximum of all bonuses. Even the Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimization bonuses don't let you go over the maximum, but raise the maximum.
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As far as I've seen, that rule seems to only apply to non-customized cyber limbs. Let me know if I'm reading it wrong.
No, looks like you're right; it's one of those not-so-obvious things that requires a little reading into the text to spot.
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Thank you for putting the mental image of a troll with Exc. Att and GenOp (Str) in my head, allowing him to get to an 18 Str.
Oh, and my players thank you as well. ;)
I am sure I have something to even give you cold sweats Jack...check this
once a body has been pushed beyond death, pushing its metahuman limits is comparatively simple. To reflect this superhuman power, add the total number of essence points below zero (rounded down) the cyberzombie possesses to all its maximum natrual attribute values...The maximum augmented attribute values are also increased accordingly
The cyberzombe troll with the 27 Str don't forget to add cyberspurs and the martial arts style Ars Cybernetica
question about the optional rule of redlineing your cyberlimb (pg 44 augmentation) if they don't use it in readline mode for the entire combat round do they take the damage?
I could just Picture the Phear o' Gawd it would invoke if i pulsed the cybertrolls limbs into redline and back before he is damaged so I can throw trucks at them with a str of 54 (extra IP required for that trick)
thoughts?
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I would not let someone get around the redlining rules by doing it for less than a combat turn - that would, in my opinion, open the door to a lot of abuses, and not be in the spirit of that rule. I would read the rule more strictly and literally - you take damage for each combat turn in which you redline a limb; it doesn't state that the limb needs to be redlined for that entire combat round.
On the question of cyberlimb enhancements to customized cyberlimbs, pg. 44 states "Use the standard cyberlimb rules as described on p. 335, SR4, unless otherwise noted." The page number will no doubt be different for SR4A, but it is still obvious that customized cyberlimbs use the same rules for enhancements that standard ones do.
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Thank you for putting the mental image of a troll with Exc. Att and GenOp (Str) in my head, allowing him to get to an 18 Str.
Oh, and my players thank you as well. ;)
Dont forget the Metagenetic enchament (Str)
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Genetic Optimization (agi).1ess
CyberArm Left .9ess
Cyberarm Right .9ess
Cyberleg Left .9ess
Cyberleg Right .9ess
Cybertorso( 1.35ess
Synaptic boosters(2) .5ess
Synch .15ess
Cybereyes(Alpha)(1) .14ess
Pain Editor .15 ess
.01 essence left
JUrban explorers jumpsuit (6/6)
Form-fitting body armor +(6/2)
all 5 limbs had 4 armor for a grand total of 32/28 + enuf Body through Natural / Limbs to get a 9 body (41 dice to resist damage)
... total of 18 physical damage boxes 10 stun (and didnt go unconcious due to pain editor)
Sure ... its a nich ... but when its this much of one .... its a mighty good niche
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And you still drop like a fly when a mage cast a stun bolt on you.
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that's why I vote cyberzombie...anyone know what the cost on a FAB III chem grenade is?
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And you still drop like a fly when a mage cast a stun bolt on you.
only if they do 28 damage to me ni 1 shot
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Sorry, Wraith235. If he gets hit with a Stunbolt, it's all Stun damage and you're using Willpower to resist the spell. Body doesn't even figure into the equation.
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I think he's talking about the pain editor. If the pain editor is on, then the mage would have to fill up the cyborg's stun track, and then fill up his physical track. Of course, he would need the restricted gear quality to have a pain editor in the first place.
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@Morg
I wondered that nobody came up with that CZ on the first page...
Now think about a Fomori Changeling (with Metagenetic Qualities as Geneware) with genetic optimization in all his Attributes. And than -6 Essence as CZ and customized full body replacements. Okay the guy would cost as much as an Army itself, but he would be the Bad Ass!
And a cherry on the top: Redlining! (see AU, p. 44)
8)
Edit: If you prefer a more freaky way replace the Fomori with a Centaur and give him 6-cyberarms...
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I think he's talking about the pain editor. If the pain editor is on, then the mage would have to fill up the cyborg's stun track, and then fill up his physical track. Of course, he would need the restricted gear quality to have a pain editor in the first place.
sorry this was the end result also Armor (4) needs restricted gear quality as well but ya
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Thank you for putting the mental image of a troll with Exc. Att and GenOp (Str) in my head, allowing him to get to an 18 Str.
Oh, and my players thank you as well. ;)
Dont forget the Metagenetic enchament (Str)
...and then he got infected with HMHVV-III...
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@Morg
I wondered that nobody came up with that CZ on the first page...
Now think about a Fomori Changeling (with Metagenetic Qualities as Geneware) with genetic optimization in all his Attributes. And than -6 Essence as CZ and customized full body replacements. Okay the guy would cost as much as an Army itself, but he would be the Bad Ass!
And a cherry on the top: Redlining! (see AU, p. 44)
8)
Edit: If you prefer a more freaky way replace the Fomori with a Centaur and give him 6-cyberarms...
Ah, Binky still lives, I see...
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Ah, Binky still lives, I see...
Ofcource, there aren't exactly that many thinks that could hurt Binky.
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Might be a stupid question, but customized cyberlimbs, you don't need a cybertorso to go over three, but you can only build them up to your base stats? Like, you can't be a STR 3 person and have an STR 5 custom cyberarm?
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Might be a stupid question, but customized cyberlimbs, you don't need a cybertorso to go over three, but you can only build them up to your base stats? Like, you can't be a STR 3 person and have an STR 5 custom cyberarm?
No, you can custom it up to your racial maximum and then you can enchant it up to +3 with-out cyber torso.
so a normal human can have a custom cyber arm with stats 6/6/6 with-out spending any capasity and then he can enchant those stats up to 9/9/9,he would need a cyber torso to rase any of those to 10(if the 9 wasn't already the augmented max)
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Really? Hmm...okay, I was wondering about that, I was under the impression that it was supposed to match, I guess, to avoid overstressing the body. Might make a house rule.
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Customized means that they built the limbs to match your body's meat design, so your body can work with the limb's ability scores a lot easier. Standard limbs are "off-the-rack", so they don't work with your body, creating stress if you try to do too much with them without having support added as well.
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That makes sense. Didn't think of it that way. Thanks.
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Customized means that they built the limbs to match your body's meat design, so your body can work with the limb's ability scores a lot easier. Standard limbs are "off-the-rack", so they don't work with your body, creating stress if you try to do too much with them without having support added as well.
I don't like the idea of customized meaning custom fit to a person. That's more of a Deltaware thing.
I'd prefer Custom Purposed.
So, getting a regular arm is cheap and common, because that limb was designed to replace a normal person's limb for normal use.
A customized limb is a niche market item created for specific uses. A surgeon's hand with extremely nuanced articulations for example.
Or even just security stuff. Nothing says bodyguard like huge beefy cyberarms.