Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Usda Beph on <09-08-10/0835:20>
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Ok so I'm wondering, Why are the rules for Unarmed Combat training so disjointed? Unarmed combat to me should be all in one place per se. What I mean it should be its own section. So when taking lvls in Unarmed from the beginning players should have the options to pick their fighting style. It's not so much a specilization as a prefered style. At character gen all the styles should be available.
Not to mention I have several styles under my preverbial belt. I am trained in Tae Kwon Do/Chun Do Quan, Shorin Ryu Karate & Wing Chun Do. Runners should not have to "Specialize" in a specific style. I have techniques I have "mastered", if you will, at my level of training. I can even fight in each of the individual styles. I just think the unarmed skills need more definition. We have books that only cover Spells Weapons, Augmentations etc. but Fist fighting gets a page or three, and a few common weapons.
Take the Ninjitsu entry. There are many different foci to the art depending the Style learned. There are Weapon heavy Ninjas (which have their own sub specialists) and Stealth foci, lets not forget the bone breakers.
I realize that if a tome was dedacated to Unarmed combat it could get unweildly (I mean a 5 book set or more ::)) But I hope there is a book upcoming that will give love to us Pugelists! Not to mention I volenteer to help playtest! :-*
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Same reason Matrix rules make no real life sense, grenade rules are plain absurd and people have something called Essence - gaming balance.
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Same reason Matrix rules make no real life sense, grenade rules are plain absurd and people have something called Essence - gaming balance.
Maybe. But it's like saying I'm using a rifle/pistol/grenade, and there being only one set of ranges, damage, area of effect for those weapons.How unbalancing can an unarmed fighting style get compared to a Panther XXL? ;D :D
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My guess is, since its a future setting and basically everyone (with the exception of people like yourself) will stick to guns or other forms of ranged combat, the Devs didn't bother to put much time into a part of the combat system that won't get used much.
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Well, while the rules for Unarmed could be more complicated, I'm kind of glad they are not :p In the SR system, unarmed combat is kind of a niche thing; it's handy on occasion, but it's inferior to modern weapons in general.
There are exceptions of course, you can build a monster of a melee guy if that's what you set out to do, but you're going to be at a disadvantage because of how defense dice pools work.
On the multiple martial arts thing, I don't see where you have to specialize in a specific style. "Martial Arts" is a valid specialization of Unarmed, and you can pick up as many different Martial Arts styles as you want.
Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?
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How unbalancing can an unarmed fighting style get compared to a Panther XXL?
By the rules, you can do the same DV than a Panther XXL with bare hands, but you can't carry your panther under your clothes.
Point of view about unarmed fighting styles might have changed since trolls and orks are involved.
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Arsenal has whole half of a chapter dedicated to rules for Martial Art.
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Arsenal has whole half of a chapter dedicated to rules for Martial Art.
K That may be true (yeah it is), but to me thats is still skimming the surface. I'm not arguing the complexity of adding another layer to Unarmed fighting, But in one of the expansions for The CBT:RPG there was a much better section for fighting IMO. The game mechanics are similar enough to almost copy:paste the info aren't they?
BTW I'm trying not to come acrossed as a jerk... I just love MAs and it could use some fluffing up. ;)
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How unbalancing can an unarmed fighting style get compared to a Panther XXL?
By the rules, you can do the same DV than a Panther XXL with bare hands, but you can't carry your panther under your clothes.
Point of view about unarmed fighting styles might have changed since trolls and orks are involved.
Maybe so but can a karate kick destroy a Tank like a XXL? I don't believe so. I've seen/experienced the power of a masterful 1" power punch. It feels like being hit by a tank gun! :o
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How unbalancing can an unarmed fighting style get compared to a Panther XXL?
By the rules, you can do the same DV than a Panther XXL with bare hands, but you can't carry your panther under your clothes.
Point of view about unarmed fighting styles might have changed since trolls and orks are involved.
Maybe so but can a karate kick destroy a Tank like a XXL? I don't believe so. I've seen/experienced the power of a masterful 1" power punch. It feels like being hit by a tank gun! :o
As written, an adept certainly can.
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How unbalancing can an unarmed fighting style get compared to a Panther XXL?
By the rules, you can do the same DV than a Panther XXL with bare hands, but you can't carry your panther under your clothes.
Point of view about unarmed fighting styles might have changed since trolls and orks are involved.
Maybe so but can a karate kick destroy a Tank like a XXL? I don't believe so. I've seen/experienced the power of a masterful 1" power punch. It feels like being hit by a tank gun! :o
As written, an adept certainly can.
Ahh, but an adept is using "magic" to enhance their attack thus changing the argument. Of course with "Magic" I can make my punch shatter steel.
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Call it "qi", call it magic, call it what you will - adepts are supposed to be the advanced martial artists of the SR world.
Other marital artists could technically do it as well, with proper augmentation.
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Call it "qi", call it magic, call it what you will - adepts are supposed to be the advanced martial artists of the SR world.
I realize that and even accept that, but the Adept is still just a Vanilla artist. Is the Adept a Mantis Style or a Shotakan Master? There is a difference in how they would attack. It's a distiction I would like to have for my Characters. There is a wide veriety of firearms, ror simplicity/game balance we could just have Pistol, Rifle, Assault Rifle, & Heavy Weapon. To me that is the arguement vs having more choices for MAs.
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Slightly remembers me of... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv04IgDWAF4
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Slightly remembers me of... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv04IgDWAF4
This is a good lesson Irian.
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Call it "qi", call it magic, call it what you will - adepts are supposed to be the advanced martial artists of the SR world.
I realize that and even accept that, but the Adept is still just a Vanilla artist. Is the Adept a Mantis Style or a Shotakan Master? There is a difference in how they would attack. It's a distiction I would like to have for my Characters. There is a wide veriety of firearms, ror simplicity/game balance we could just have Pistol, Rifle, Assault Rifle, & Heavy Weapon. To me that is the arguement vs having more choices for MAs.
True, but as I said: 99% (imaginary figure) of Sam players love gun variety. 1% knows a lot about guns and would like more details in ranged combat (caliber for example).
99% of MA/Adept players love to be able to kill people and smash drones with their bare hands. 1% cares about HOW they accomplish that.
Its a no no-brainer to see where the Devs had to invest the limited time they had to build a system for this. And since the ratio probably wont change, I don't think there is a big chance of the stuff you like being implemented as a sourcebook add-on.
On the other hand, nobody will hold you back from creating this as a house rule! There might also be other MA enthusiasts who would like to help you create this.
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Call it "qi", call it magic, call it what you will - adepts are supposed to be the advanced martial artists of the SR world.
I realize that and even accept that, but the Adept is still just a Vanilla artist. Is the Adept a Mantis Style or a Shotakan Master? There is a difference in how they would attack. It's a distiction I would like to have for my Characters. There is a wide veriety of firearms, ror simplicity/game balance we could just have Pistol, Rifle, Assault Rifle, & Heavy Weapon. To me that is the arguement vs having more choices for MAs.
While I agree that it wouldn't hurt for more fluff to be available, they did a decent job of diversifying the styles in a relatively small space. Most adepts I know take at least one Martial Arts style (most combat characters in general, actually). Certainly there are enough examples for GMs to write up their own forms if people want to play a specific style that's not listed.
If they put out a book that had a ton of martial arts, would I buy it? Absolutely.
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Call it "qi", call it magic, call it what you will - adepts are supposed to be the advanced martial artists of the SR world.
I realize that and even accept that, but the Adept is still just a Vanilla artist. Is the Adept a Mantis Style or a Shotakan Master? There is a difference in how they would attack. It's a distiction I would like to have for my Characters. There is a wide veriety of firearms, ror simplicity/game balance we could just have Pistol, Rifle, Assault Rifle, & Heavy Weapon. To me that is the arguement vs having more choices for MAs.
While I agree that it wouldn't hurt for more fluff to be available, they did a decent job of diversifying the styles in a relatively small space. Most adepts I know take at least one Martial Arts style (most combat characters in general, actually). Certainly there are enough examples for GMs to write up their own forms if people want to play a specific style that's not listed.
If they put out a book that had a ton of martial arts, would I buy it? Absolutely.
Ok Yeah I should have said that myself. TPTB have laid a strong foundation for unarmed combat, I just want more. Thanks for putting it better than I did Mooncrow. ;D
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For updated Martial Arts rules, check out the section in Arsenal. Using positive qualities, you can choose styles and manuevers, giving you benefits to Unarmed Combat.
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If anyone wants a personal example, I have one.
My character picked up the Boxing martial art, which it is, it just doesn't have fancy kicks. (As a side note, I heard about a fighting monk over in China studying boxing because it developed very impressive hand speed.) He picked up the Boxing quality +1 DV and two maneuvers: Full Offense and Finishing Move. Full Offense adds 2 dice to the attack roll, but you can't defend until your next action. Finishing Move allows you to make a second, immediate close combat attack if you connect with your target (do not need to damage it) at the cost of your next action.
My character combo'd these two together to take down another sammie. That, combined with the set of shock gloves he was wearing ensured that the target did NOT get back up. The downside was that two of his three passes were taken up by the attack, and he could not defend himself until the third pass came around. Still, since it took out his target, what did that matter?
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For updated Martial Arts rules, check out the section in Arsenal. Using positive qualities, you can choose styles and manuevers, giving you benefits to Unarmed Combat.
To me this is more like a skill group than a quality.
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Note that the +1DV can be taken twice in boxing martial style, and you can stack up to +3DV with two martial arts.
Little bit of bone lacing + strength augmentation, you're a living Panther canon, and with multiple target option, you get an area of effect.
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The qualities add something extra to the skill. They don't produce a dice pool on their own. They can negate penalties (such as -2 for secondary targets) or boost a specific type of attack (bonus to DV or bonus die for grappling). Such a thing doesn't lend itself to a simple skill, and it keeps dice pools from getting freakishly out of hand.
QUICK EDIT: While you may be able to hit as hard as a Panther Cannon (ouch), said cannon can do it from (literally) miles away. Even if you sprint to a target to try to get a melee attack off, the target (assuming only one) will get several shots at you with an SMG or assault rifle. Not cool.
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The qualities add something extra to the skill. They don't produce a dice pool on their own. They can negate penalties (such as -2 for secondary targets) or boost a specific type of attack (bonus to DV or bonus die for grappling). Such a thing doesn't lend itself to a simple skill, and it keeps dice pools from getting freakishly out of hand.
QUICK EDIT: While you may be able to hit as hard as a Panther Cannon (ouch), said cannon can do it from (literally) miles away. Even if you sprint to a target to try to get a melee attack off, the target (assuming only one) will get several shots at you with an SMG or assault rifle. Not cool.
The problem I see with Qualities over skills is a Quality doesn't get better but with practice & training a skill does. And martail Arts are lots of training. So something like a MA do Stun damage till they have say 5 ranks in their art. and damage could increase something like (STR/2+Skill rank)S. Not quite as leathal as a Panther plus lots less range and no blast raduis.
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The qualities add something extra to the skill. They don't produce a dice pool on their own. They can negate penalties (such as -2 for secondary targets) or boost a specific type of attack (bonus to DV or bonus die for grappling). Such a thing doesn't lend itself to a simple skill, and it keeps dice pools from getting freakishly out of hand.
QUICK EDIT: While you may be able to hit as hard as a Panther Cannon (ouch), said cannon can do it from (literally) miles away. Even if you sprint to a target to try to get a melee attack off, the target (assuming only one) will get several shots at you with an SMG or assault rifle. Not cool.
The problem I see with Qualities over skils is a Quality doesn't get better but with practice & training a skill does. And martail Arts are lots of training. So something like a MA do Stun damage till they have say 5 ranks in their art. and damage could increase something like (STR/2+Skill rank)S. Not quite as leathal as a Panther plus lots less range and no blast raduis.
Actually, Martial Arts are an exception to normal qualities in that they can be increased by karma by RAW.
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@The Gun Nut
True ^^ and its much more hard to take a rotodrone down with unarmed style - didn't say you can't.
On the other hand, shooting from miles isn't very usefull in urban fight, where no line of sight lasts more than 50 meters, and there's no way security let you pass with that Panther thing in your pants.
To each weapon its own situation.
@Usda : there's "ranks" for the martial qualities, that allows you to take more and more advantages and maneuvers.
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Well, the Martial Arts quality comes in 4 ranks, each cost 5 BP. With each rank, you can choose two manuevers, which cost 2 BP each. So, you can spend Karma to buy the qualities as you game, getting better as you continue on. And, as before, the Styles & Manuevers add to Unarmed Combat, DV, Dodge, Parry, etc.
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@The Gun Nut
True ^^ and its much more hard to take a rotodrone down with unarmed style - didn't say you can't.
On the other hand, shooting from miles isn't very usefull in urban fight, where no line of sight lasts more than 50 meters, and there's no way security let you pass with that Panther thing in your pants.
To each weapon its own situation.
@Usda : there's "ranks" for the martial qualities, that allows you to take more and more advantages and maneuvers.
I guess I need more time to delve into the tomes. Good thing The Doomed One left his books at my house ;D Thanks. There is lots I have to read up on and lots of books to find that knowledge in! :-[
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Yes, and combining the martial arts with cyber/bioware ensures that you can deal out that nasty hit. For example:
HUMAN:
Base STR: 5
Muscle Aug: +4
Total: 9 STR
Bone Density augmentation 4 allows base melee damage to be (STR/2)+3 L
=> 9/2 (round up) = 5 + 3 (bone density) = 8L
Combined with a potential +3 from MA qualities = 11L
There is a maneuver that allows one to attack multiple enemies (split dice pool) with a bonus (its not terribly expensive, karma-wise) and a MA quality that does this too => small AOE.
It can get pretty sick, pretty fast.
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And Adepts can get even nastier. Critical strike, elemental strike, combined with some maneuvers...
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Forget humans, take an ork :p Now we're talking !
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And Adepts can get even nastier. Critical strike, elemental strike, combined with some maneuvers...
Welcome to my character KageZero... (Mystic Adept on top of it)
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Minotaur:Usda Beph
Bone Density(4) BOD 9(13)
Muscle Aug(4) STR10 (14)
Muscle Toner(4) just to be sick 3(7)
Munchie? Yes but with all the Pretty elves in our Party we needed a bulldozer. ;D
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Minotaur:Usda Beph
Bone Density(4) BOD 9(13)
Muscle Aug(4) STR10 (14)
Muscle Toner(4) just to be sick 3(7)
Munchie? Yes but with all the Pretty elves in our Party we needed a bulldozer. ;D
Sounds like good times to me^^
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And Adepts can get even nastier. Critical strike, elemental strike, combined with some maneuvers...
Welcome to my character KageZero... (Mystic Adept on top of it)
One of my players plays a Capoeira martial arts Ki Adept. At the moment he inflicts 9k basic damage (8+1 net hit) and with his next Initiation thats probably gonna be 10k -2AP.
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That makes the baby Jesus cry.
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One of my players plays a Capoeira martial arts Ki Adept. At the moment he inflicts 9k basic damage (8+1 net hit) and with his next Initiation thats probably gonna be 10k -2AP.
Not too shappy, my tiger shifter adept build does 9P AP-half in her natural form becouse i refused to make it higher in chargen
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Oh, did I forget to mention that he is a latent drake? His "second awakening" is around the corner.
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That makes the baby Jesus cry.
Only if that sick and delicious Capoeira hits him TGN!
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I think what's there is enough, when you consider the time and money that goes into printing sourcebooks, when you consider the amount of research required for a good martial arts supplement, and when you consider just what a niche it is in Shadowrun. Take a look at the HERO games "Ultimate Martial Artist," and you'll see a book that covers a lot of martial arts very well, but that obviously took a whooooole lot of time to put together. They did it because "Ninja HERO" has been a popular genre of their generic rules system for a long time, because martial artists are a popular schtick in a Champions (superhero) genre that also uses their same rules, etc, etc...
But if you look at how many other ways there are to fight someone in Shadowrun, and you look at what a niche-within-a-niche melee combat is, and then dedicated martial artists within that niche...the pay off just isn't there. There's already a pretty big chunk of Arsenal dedicated to martial arts, and that's more than enough for the vast majority of campaigns out there.
Folks that know the difference between Pekiti Tersia Kali and Guro Dan Inosanto's Kali are few and far between...and, really, the difference in an RPG is negligible. It's enough for both of them to be lumped in with all the other Kali/Escrima/FMA arts, and just given a few cool bonuses with the appropriate weapons. You can describe your awesome footwork and masterful stabbing however you want to, once you sling the dice and do well in an attack.
Likewise, with the eight hundred billion styles of Kung Fu. What does it matter -- in your average Shadowrun game -- if someone's using Choy Li Fut versus Wing Chun? If he's making an attack roll, beating his opponent by a whole lot, and doing X amount of damage...guess what? Describe it how you want to.
You're free to add all the detail you want in your home games, just like folks can describe their HK 227 as a 9mm, or their Ares Alpha as a .223, or their Ares Predator as a .40, if they want to. There's no need for extra sourcebooks to use company resources and time, to delve into additional detail that (a) might be wrong, which will freak people out (just look at the clip vs. magazine argument), or (b) could be time spent working on something else.
Right now, my only beef with the martial arts rules (as per Arsenal) is that they come from Qualities points. That's a steep, steep, cost, and I'd like them better if they were linked somehow to your Unarmed Combat skill, came out of skill points, etc. On the one hand, I like that you can make a Kimbo Slice or a Bob Sapp (by having a mediocre Unarmed Combat die pool, but just crazy points spent on +1 to DV so that if you land a solid hit someone's head comes off)...but I think the chapter and the rules would just flow better, feel more cohesive, and be more fairly priced if they were linked to skills more directly.
That's house rule territory, though, and not something that I think needs a rewrite.
(As a side note, I heard about a fighting monk over in China studying boxing because it developed very impressive hand speed.)
A vaguely popular guy a few of us may have heard of, Bruce Lee, did the same thing. He incorporated quite a bit from American Boxing, and even some Fencing, into Jeet.
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There is also an adept power (distance strike i think) that let you throw a punch at a distance of (magic score) meters, that can make a difference in a fight.
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I understand that they needed a BP framework to fit Martial Arts in, but taking self-defense training isn't exactly a defining background characteristic. No more so than practicing at any other skill.
So, why did they make MA count towards the starting Quality limit? Balance? Nonsense! The only people with the spare BP to wast beyond the first 35 Quality points would be mundanes interested in close combat. What possible archetype could use more help than a mundane punch-up artist?
By the way, Gun Nut, aren't shock gloves just a weapon which uses Unarmed combat skill? I wouldn't think the damage they do would be considered be "Unarmed Damage" for the purposes of boxing's DV bonus... right? :-\
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God, I wish someone would tell my Troll Street Samurai that melee is a niche thing in Shadowrun and not effective compared to guns.
That fragger cuts mooks in half with that damn combat axe of his in one round or less. He has more kills with it than his Shotgun!!!
Melee can be dangerous in the right hands, hell even my Mystic Adept I GM is dangerous in close range!
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The Ninja/tank/Phyad Troll in in my Game is the Melee expert of the group while he is slow (only 1 IP) when he hits most targets do not get back up add that to the fact he does Electrical damage with his elemental strike/killing hands he rare uses any of his weapons when he can crank out a 11P before net that is AP 1/2 so I agree Melee Type work well in the current system's MA rules
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It's not that rolling the dice and beating someone up is a niche thing. It's that caring about the specifics of the martial art is a niche thing, especially when combined with and needing game rules for it.
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Aww we lost a whole page during the black out!
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If you can't remember within 7 seconds what you wrote on that page it wasn't important anyways ;)
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Ouch.
One of the things I am thinking about doing is adding some stunt elements to the game to give those folks who really love close combat a bit more flavor and make it attractive. In Exalted you describe a stunt for your character, and the GM (and the others at the table) decide how "cool" it looks (rule of Cool implemented within game mechanics). Basically, the cooler it is, the more bonus dice you get (up to 3) to perform any actions described in the stunt. The rewards are not only extra dice, but if you are successful, then you get some in game resources back: Essence, Willpower, and possibly a bonus XP for the night (only once per session, though).
I'm considering doing this to help the melee folks "get into" their combat more, as opposed to just rolling dice. With the number of called shots I've seen taken for ranged combat already, I don't think it needs much more in my game.
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If you can't remember within 7 seconds what you wrote on that page it wasn't important anyways ;)
It was more that the post I quoted is now gone making my reply post... Obsolite.
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If you can't remember within 7 seconds what you wrote on that page it wasn't important anyways ;)
If I can't remember it, it is because I wrote a 1000 word essay and don't feel like typing it all again.
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It had to do with Bruce's Jeet Kune Do using Boxing tech. Which is essencially true. But According to James DeMiles (Bruces first student) Bruce had removed key elements from Jeet to make it substandard(Yet still mighty effective) To the system bruce himself used (with James and a few others) that became known as Wing Chun Do. This from the mouth of Sejo DeMiles himself at a seminar I attended while a WCD Student.
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It had to do with Bruce's Jeet Kune Do using Boxing tech. Which is essencially true. But According to James DeMiles (Bruces first student) Bruce had removed key elements from Jeet to make it substandard(Yet still mighty effective) To the system bruce himself used (with James and a few others) that became known as Wing Chun Do. This from the mouth of Sejo DeMiles himself at a seminar I attended while a WCD Student.
There are plenty of conspiracies and myths surrounding Bruce and Jeet as it is -- but when someone's claiming to have secret knowledge that only Bruce Lee and his inner circle had (Wing Chun Do) that's a martial art even cooler than Jeet Kun Do...you just have to ask yourself what someone's trying to sell you, in my opinion.
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Not if you consider Bruce to be a Spiked Physical Adept... ;)
From all I read, he created Jeet to make it a 'non-style', sort of a precursor to Mixed Martial Arts.
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It very much was. He used to get pissed when people referred to Jeet as a martial art style. One of his core tenets was not to label it (and in doing so, limit it) that way.
To me, the very idea that he'd keep "secret techniques" for a "secret martial art" hidden from public consumption, that he'd teach just a few of his favorite students...is actually pretty insulting to Bruce and his memory. It's pretty obvious that the next words out of DeMiles' mouth (at that seminar) were going to be "But for the low, low, price of _______, I'll teach YOU these secret techniques!"
Of course, now we're getting into the politics and backbiting that came after Bruce's death, the split in the JKD community (some want to teach Jeet only as Bruce taught it, others continued the JKD "idea" and kept incorporating new stuff), etc, etc, etc. There's always a bunch of bitter, petty, hurtful, crap happening when someone dies and leaves behind friends and money...and Bruce Lee's life was no exception.
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It had to do with Bruce's Jeet Kune Do using Boxing tech. Which is essencially true. But According to James DeMiles (Bruces first student) Bruce had removed key elements from Jeet to make it substandard(Yet still mighty effective) To the system bruce himself used (with James and a few others) that became known as Wing Chun Do. This from the mouth of Sejo DeMiles himself at a seminar I attended while a WCD Student.
There are plenty of conspiracies and myths surrounding Bruce and Jeet as it is -- but when someone's claiming to have secret knowledge that only Bruce Lee and his inner circle had (Wing Chun Do) that's a martial art even cooler than Jeet Kun Do...you just have to ask yourself what someone's trying to sell you, in my opinion.
DO consider that Sejo DeMiles was one of if not Bruce's first students, and He (by his own recounting) can out "power Punch" Master(Sejo?) Dan Inisanto because Dan learned the punch AFTER bruce pulled those key elements I mentioned. Also Crit, remember Bruce was a touch Paranoid and an over achiever. To him it was silly to teach someone to be as good as he was. DeMiles learned the full techniques because he (and the other originals) were to be sparring partners and had to be able to push Bruce. Taking that inlt consideration I would wager that were still other secrets the great master didn't teach James for the same reason.
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Inosanto's normally called "Guro" Dan. It's the Filipino word for teacher.
At any rate, we'll just have to agree to disagree. When someone worked as hard as Bruce did to open up the world of martial arts to the West, and when someone else is banking on the mystique around Bruce to sell "secret techniques" that he claims Bruce kept from everyone else? I just...*shrugs*...smells fishy to me.
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Inosanto's normally called "Guro" Dan. It's the Filipino word for teacher.
At any rate, we'll just have to agree to disagree. When someone worked as hard as Bruce did to open up the world of martial arts to the West, and when someone else is banking on the mystique around Bruce to sell "secret techniques" that he claims Bruce kept from everyone else? I just...*shrugs*...smells fishy to me.
Doesn't Guru Inosanto Do the same? Bruce has two systems he taught the public. Jun Fan Boxing & Jeet. Why is it so hard to believe he didn't keep a few tricks to for himself which only a select few was privy to? Plus for a good while Sejo DeMiles only taught our Special Forces this system. I will believe anyone with the credencials of Sejo DeMiles, Specifically because what he is teaching works as well as it does. ;) I joined a TKD class 10 years after dropping out of WCD. In free sparring I won against every oponent up to the third degree. I lost by no short stick but I will say He would have gone to the hospital shortly after me if it were a real fight ;D
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Like I said, I'm sorry but it just smells like a marketing scheme to me.
At best, he's telling the truth and has some secret techniques that Bruce didn't want to share with the general public, right? So he's turning around, banking on Bruce's legend, and selling those techniques to the general public -- which Bruce specifically didn't want to do. I find that distasteful, on a personal level, as something to do to a friend and teacher.
At worst, he's making the whole thing up. He might have some cool tricks to show (like Guro Dan certainly does), but instead of admitting they're his cool tricks, he's marketing them as Bruce's cool tricks in order to name-drop and make more money off the whole thing.
At any rate, my opinion on the subject doesn't matter. My old teacher was a Guro Dan student, and as he always told us, the knot of talent and enthusiasm around Bruce is something that's not going to get untangled thirty years after he died. Everyone Sifu Lee taught, and everyone he learned from, and everyone he sparred with, could probably murder me with their pinky finger, regardless of their age... ;D...but they're still just people. Any of them that we've heard of, we've heard of because they've banked on their connection to Bruce -- to one degree or another -- so it's not like I'm condemning just one guy, or anything.
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Valid points on cashing in. BTW Sifu... instructor/master. Sijo Grand Master If there was a title higher than that It would be Bruce's in all three diciplines he used.
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First off, hats off to you guys for keeping the debate civil.
Second, I toted around with the idea of setting up a campaign focused on hand to hand combat. Basically ran into all the issues mentioned here.
Always thought that with the stuff about adepts and MMA in the future scattered in several sourcebooks that a longer treatment would be cool. I mean if it needed to be more marketable you could do it as a sports of 2073 or something. At least then it would get an entire chapter.
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A Gladio-centric game with a bunch of Adept UFC fighters (who so moonlight work as Shadowrunners, maybe?) could be pretty cool. I'm a huge fan of Combat Biker and Urban Brawl, myself, too...but I just don't know if the interest is there to stem a whole sourcebook, even so.
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A Gladio-centric game with a bunch of Adept UFC fighters (who so moonlight work as Shadowrunners, maybe?) could be pretty cool. I'm a huge fan of Combat Biker and Urban Brawl, myself, too...but I just don't know if the interest is there to stem a whole sourcebook, even so.
Exactly what I was thinking. Would take some digging as I never stayed caught up with the urban brawl and combat biker stuff. Although this talk of urban brawl makes me want to rent The Running Man (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093894/).
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First off, hats off to you guys for keeping the debate civil.
Second, I toted around with the idea of setting up a campaign focused on hand to hand combat. Basically ran into all the issues mentioned here.
Always thought that with the stuff about adepts and MMA in the future scattered in several sourcebooks that a longer treatment would be cool. I mean if it needed to be more marketable you could do it as a sports of 2073 or something. At least then it would get an entire chapter.
Hmmm... An Olympics 2072 book? ;D
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Hmmm... An Olympics 2072 book? ;D
Now that would be a ton of new stuff. Though my guess is that figure skating crowd doesn't make it into the shadows so often ;)
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Running Man? The book, I like for non-Urban Brawl reasons. The movie, I just never cared for too much.
The Arnie flick makes UB more of a gameshow, when it's still very much a pro sport -- it's just rugby or football with armor and guns, really...or maybe infantry plus a ball. Ball moves from one end of a cordoned-off urban zone to the other, and guys try to murder one another to keep it from happening. Easy, peasy, and plenty of fun. ;D
It still doesn't get much better than Shadowbeat for just the basic rules and regulations of Shadowrun's pro sports. Prime Runners had a Linebacker in it, to show you how silly Football could be with chrome and metahumans...but to me, Urban Brawl and Combat Biker will always be where it's at.
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The Arnie flick makes UB more of a gameshow, when it's still very much a pro sport -- it's just rugby or football with armor and guns, really...or maybe infantry plus a ball. Ball moves from one end of a cordoned-off urban zone to the other, and guys try to murder one another to keep it from happening. Easy, peasy, and plenty of fun. ;D
Sound like Quidditch to me.
<ducks for cover>
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Running Man? The book, I like for non-Urban Brawl reasons. The movie, I just never cared for too much.
The Arnie flick makes UB more of a gameshow, when it's still very much a pro sport -- it's just rugby or football with armor and guns, really...or maybe infantry plus a ball. Ball moves from one end of a cordoned-off urban zone to the other, and guys try to murder one another to keep it from happening. Easy, peasy, and plenty of fun. ;D
It still doesn't get much better than Shadowbeat for just the basic rules and regulations of Shadowrun's pro sports. Prime Runners had a Linebacker in it, to show you how silly Football could be with chrome and metahumans...but to me, Urban Brawl and Combat Biker will always be where it's at.
Yeah, I have a copy of Shadowbeat around here someplace. It was early enough rules wise that I got a bit bogged down with the reporter stuff (rolls for quality of footage and such). Fluff wise I rank it near Fields of Fire, but that's an entire other thread.
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The Arnie flick makes UB more of a gameshow, when it's still very much a pro sport -- it's just rugby or football with armor and guns, really...or maybe infantry plus a ball. Ball moves from one end of a cordoned-off urban zone to the other, and guys try to murder one another to keep it from happening. Easy, peasy, and plenty of fun. ;D
Sound like Quidditch to me.
<ducks for cover>
*narrows his eyes dangerously*
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First off, hats off to you guys for keeping the debate civil.
Second, I toted around with the idea of setting up a campaign focused on hand to hand combat. Basically ran into all the issues mentioned here.
Always thought that with the stuff about adepts and MMA in the future scattered in several sourcebooks that a longer treatment would be cool. I mean if it needed to be more marketable you could do it as a sports of 2073 or something. At least then it would get an entire chapter.
Key word LFK. I will discuss point/counter point with anyone. Because I disagree with someone doesn't make them wrong or me right. I learn for discussing and I try to be civil on forums. As Chaotix, She knows I'm not anywhere as polite and understanding as I am on the forums. ;)
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First off, hats off to you guys for keeping the debate civil.
Second, I toted around with the idea of setting up a campaign focused on hand to hand combat. Basically ran into all the issues mentioned here.
Always thought that with the stuff about adepts and MMA in the future scattered in several sourcebooks that a longer treatment would be cool. I mean if it needed to be more marketable you could do it as a sports of 2073 or something. At least then it would get an entire chapter.
Key word LFK. I will discuss point/counter point with anyone. Because I disagree with someone doesn't make them wrong or me right. I learn for discussing and I try to be civil on forums. As Chaotix, She knows I'm not anywhere as polite and understanding as I am on the forums. ;)
Ah... Someone after my own heart. Arguments don't always mean "I'm right!" but are ways to learn something new.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-- Aristotle
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I don't think I'm arguing on the forums. I debate. For me arguing involves liberal use of profanity ;D
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Meh. If I'm not waving a gun around, it's just a conversation, not a debate or argument.
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Meh. If I'm not waving a gun around, it's just a conversation, not a debate or argument.
True... but I can't see if you are or not through the interwebz ;D
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Meh. If I'm not waving a gun around, it's just a conversation, not a debate or argument.
True... but I can't see if you are or not through the interwebz ;D
(http://www.beyondavatars.com/data/media/130/0090.gif)
Now we're arguing... ;)
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Debate can be good. As has been the case here in my opinion.
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Meh. If I'm not waving a gun around, it's just a conversation, not a debate or argument.
True... but I can't see if you are or not through the interwebz ;D
(http://www.beyondavatars.com/data/media/130/0090.gif)
Now we're arguing... ;)
LOLcatz for da win!
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Just for the record, an argument can also be "a process of reasoning; series of reasons: as in I couldn't follow his argument" or "a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: as in This is a strong argument in favor of her theory" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/argument (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/argument).
So, yes, an argument can be just fine. It's the angry shouting ones that can become bothersome.
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Just for the record, an argument can also be "a process of reasoning; series of reasons: as in I couldn't follow his argument" or "a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: as in This is a strong argument in favor of her theory" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/argument (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/argument).
So, yes, an argument can be just fine. It's the angry shouting ones that can become bothersome.
You're not from an Italian Family are you? Gentle conversations over dinner of Manacotti(sp?) can be heard 3 blocks away.
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Take a look at the HERO games "Ultimate Martial Artist," and you'll see a book that covers a lot of martial arts very well, but that obviously took a whooooole lot of time to put together.
As a side note, if anyone is searching for nice sources for playing martial arts: GURPS Martial Arts is also a nice book, including descriptions of many styles. Usefull stuff if you want to flesh out your fighting descriptions.
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Same reason Matrix rules make no real life sense, grenade rules are plain absurd and people have something called Essence - gaming balance.
......How unbalancing can an unarmed fighting style get compared to a Panther XXL? ;D :D
You haven't seen Stahlseele's Trolls ;)
A Troll Ki-Ad Melee Fighter can be deadlier than a Panther Sturmkanone !
Deadlier by far
(but that was allready mentioned )
Hough !
Medicineman
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You haven't seen Stahlseele's Trolls ;)
A Troll Ki-Ad Melee Fighter can be deadlier than a Panther Sturmkanone !
Deadlier by far
(but that was allready mentioned )
Hough !
Medicineman
I was starting to wonder when you'd finally show up here :) *waves*
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Same reason Matrix rules make no real life sense, grenade rules are plain absurd and people have something called Essence - gaming balance.
......How unbalancing can an unarmed fighting style get compared to a Panther XXL? ;D :D
You haven't seen Stahlseele's Trolls ;)
A Troll Ki-Ad Melee Fighter can be deadlier than a Panther Sturmkanone !
Deadlier by far
(but that was allready mentioned )
Hough !
Medicineman
shuoldn't that be "up close?" after all a punch doesn't quite have the range of a panther.
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I didn't have time to read all the posts, so maybe it's been addressed already, but one thing that's great about the SR gun rules is that they're very realistic in many ways compared to how many melee games handle guns (i.e. palladium..D20). Why should the martial arts rules be any less realistic. I'm sorry but by and large the primary difference between different fighting styles is purely esthetic....and is designed to only makes sense when fighting with other people of that same style. I do capoeira, and I love capoeira...my cousin is the capoeira instructor in my town and he used to be a professional ultimate fighter....and capoeira has helped him to be very flexible, have good stamina, and fast reflexes...so it's definitely helped him be an all around better fighter....but in a professional fight he doesn't use any capoeira....it all comes down to your standing game (muy thai variants) and most importantly your ground game (brazilian jujitsu)...and that's what everyone trains because it's what works in a real fight. Training other styles can help you out, but in a much more indirect way....not in the way martial arts enthuasats usually think where "dragon fist" or "praying mantis" is somehow going to make a difference. I think the way SR represents martial arts is much closer to reality....and if don't believe me just start watching some real MMA.
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What you say is somewhat true Inca. Being trained in 3 different styles (TKD, Shorin Ryu, Wing Chun Do) what you have said is mostly true. But when I joined Wing, everything I lerner in my hard styles went out the window. Since Wing is the only soft style I've studied I can't say if it's principles would hold up in any other. Going from crane to mantis probably would have some similarities but also be different enough to make a student start from scratch. Little things like weather a side kick steps behind or over when chambering is easier than say learning a driving punch v a cuncussion punch. ;)
However for an RPG a block is a block and a kick is a kick, it's the art's specific "perks" that will differ.
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shuoldn't that be "up close?" after all a punch doesn't quite have the range of a panther.
(but that was allready mentioned )
Not so close anymore if he initiates a few times, raised magic and learns distance strike...
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shuoldn't that be "up close?" after all a punch doesn't quite have the range of a panther.
(but that was allready mentioned )
Not so close anymore if he initiates a few times, raised magic and learns distance strike...
Oh I can't wait till we're more comfortable with the mechanics of this Game!
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shuoldn't that be "up close?" after all a punch doesn't quite have the range of a panther.
(but that was allready mentioned )
Not so close anymore if he initiates a few times, raised magic and learns distance strike...
I think it's gonna take more than that to make him match the range of a Panther. ;)
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shuoldn't that be "up close?" after all a punch doesn't quite have the range of a panther.
(but that was allready mentioned )
Not so close anymore if he initiates a few times, raised magic and learns distance strike...
I think it's gonna take more than that to make him match the range of a Panther. ;)
Even so a fist that can strike at a distance greater than arm's length is always a good thing. NOw to get one to hit around corners! ;D
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shuoldn't that be "up close?" after all a punch doesn't quite have the range of a panther.
(but that was allready mentioned )
Not so close anymore if he initiates a few times, raised magic and learns distance strike...
I think it's gonna take more than that to make him match the range of a Panther. ;)
True, but I'd prefer an undetectable Panther cannon substitude with less range over a large weapon which gets me hunted down by SWAT teams anytime :)
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I'll take C. Both for the win Pat. The Panther when you need to make a big statement & that ranged punch when you're just looking to knock someone's block off their body! ;D
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Hmm... Scrawny Elf Phys Adept carrying a big honkin' Panther XXL. Nahhhhh... ;)
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See now thats what I'm talking about! I can just picture that skinny Elf firing that Panther and flying away from recoil! ::)
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Yeah, but if he's a Phys Adept, he might NOT fly away from recoil with the right powers... Which should scare the drek out of the SecGuards. ;)
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shuoldn't that be "up close?" after all a punch doesn't quite have the range of a panther.
(but that was allready mentioned )
Not so close anymore if he initiates a few times, raised magic and learns distance strike...
I think it's gonna take more than that to make him match the range of a Panther. ;)
True, but I'd prefer an undetectable Panther cannon substitude with less range over a large weapon which gets me hunted down by SWAT teams anytime :)
What you'd prefer isn't the same as "deadlier than," is it? ;D
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shuoldn't that be "up close?" after all a punch doesn't quite have the range of a panther.
(but that was allready mentioned )
Not so close anymore if he initiates a few times, raised magic and learns distance strike...
I think it's gonna take more than that to make him match the range of a Panther. ;)
True, but I'd prefer an undetectable Panther cannon substitude with less range over a large weapon which gets me hunted down by SWAT teams anytime :)
What you'd prefer isn't the same as "deadlier than," is it? ;D
Ah, but we weren't talking about "more deadly", but about range! ;)
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....ooO( it all startet with a joke and now it reminds me of the "endless motivational Pictures")
Can we come to something completely different now
http://barrykade.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/completely.jpg
with a thoughtfull Dance
Medicineman
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Ah, but we weren't talking about "more deadly", but about range! ;)
A Troll Ki-Ad Melee Fighter can be deadlier than a Panther Sturmkanone !
Deadlier by far
(but that was allready mentioned )
You and I might not have been, but "we" -- the thread -- were. ;D
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Damn you, thread collective!
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Yeah, but if he's a Phys Adept, he might NOT fly away from recoil with the right powers... Which should scare the drek out of the SecGuards. ;)
That is so win... I want to make that character now. Just on principal. Do I get a free intimidation roll to break the guards morale at the end of any combat round where they saw me firing the gun and reacting to the recoil like it was a red rider BB gun? ;)
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Hey its a resurrection I know but, Did we discuss wether Mauvers ARE Qualities?
The Excel spread I have been using (Nice but missing some character options) Draws the Manuvers from Quality points, but I don't see anything that says they ARE qualities. If we covered this, I'm Old so I forget. ::)
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Draws the Manuvers from Quality points, but I don't see anything that says they ARE qualities
They aren't.
I consider them specialties like Binding Costs for Foci or Complex Forms or Spells
with a special Dance
Medicineman
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Learning Martial Arts Maneuvers: Maneuvers can be used
only by characters who learn them—a process that takes time, practice,
and training. Any character who possesses the Martial Arts
quality may learn/purchase maneuvers. Only two maneuvers may
be learned/purchased per level (5 BP) of the quality.
Maneuvers are purchased at a cost of 2 BP at character creation
or 4 Karma during gameplay. Characters cannot learn maneuvers
in gameplay without being taught by an instructor or tutorsoft .
Learning a maneuver requires an Intuition + Agility (5, 1 week)
Test and costs half the amount of learning a martial arts style.
Maneuvers are not available on skillsofts.
Where did you find that quote from Medicineman? It's kinda booge, but I sorta see why it's done that way.
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What quote ?
Maneuvers being specialties like the cost for Binding foci ,or Spells,etc ?
thats my Opinion from what I know of the Rules,not a quote
Martial Arts (the 4 Level), shure they're qualities ,but not the Maneuvers
HokaHey
Medicineman
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What quote ?
Maneuvers being specialties like the cost for Binding foci ,or Spells,etc ?
thats my Opinion from what I know of the Rules,not a quote
Martial Arts (the 4 Level), shure they're qualities ,but not the Maneuvers
HokaHey
Medicineman
Oh Ok. I thought you pulled that from a book. Thanks. ;) Would be nice if they just cam outs build points instead. :-\
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ok, this seems to be the correct thread to put this on.
can anyone help me put together rules for a style not covered in the books.
The style is Systema. It is a real world technique of russian origin, focusing on close quarters combat (book describes this as clinch except the use of strength is against systemas core principles). Since it is a soldiers technique training runs the gamut from one on one to multi-opponent, both standing and groundwork, with and without weapons (emphasis on knife due to utility), and all of this done at a range where you literally are breathing in the other persons bad breath.
at this point this shouldn't be too difficult to put together, just pick one or two things to focus on and the rest is fluff. My challenge comes in my attempt to remain true to the core principles of the style, so there is one caveat. No technique, attack, assault, evasion or defence may employ strength. Everything is done through movement. Everything.
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I wouldn't sweat it too much. Cherry pick the maneuvers and abilities you like, and call it a day. Mix up whatever you like from Wrestling and Krav Maga or Wildcat (to get a mixture of grappling and militant/brutal stuff), and go back to rolling dice and having fun. ;D
There's no real way to get much of a "movement over strength" principle into play in a role playing game where so much of close combat is based on Strength. In fact, I'll even go so far as to wager that that's not terribly far from real life, in that I'll bet most hardcore Systema guys are in pretty fantastic shape, whether their art claims to require it or not -- all else being equal, being stronger isn't going to hurt you in a fight (all else being equal, I said!).
I wouldn't let the "not strength, movement!" bog you down. Just chalk it up as something that's simplified for game purposes, and call it good.
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ok, this seems to be the correct thread to put this on.
can anyone help me put together rules for a style not covered in the books.
The style is Systema. It is a real world technique of russian origin, focusing on close quarters combat (book describes this as clinch except the use of strength is against systemas core principles). Since it is a soldiers technique training runs the gamut from one on one to multi-opponent, both standing and groundwork, with and without weapons (emphasis on knife due to utility), and all of this done at a range where you literally are breathing in the other persons bad breath.
at this point this shouldn't be too difficult to put together, just pick one or two things to focus on and the rest is fluff. My challenge comes in my attempt to remain true to the core principles of the style, so there is one caveat. No technique, attack, assault, evasion or defence may employ strength. Everything is done through movement. Everything.
Wow it sounds somewhat like Wing Chun Do on it being an explosive devistating close in system. So that being said, a +1 hit mod as long as the Systema user has moved X number of meters before attacking (whatever works w/in a free action). +1 DV if clinched (or however its defined in SR rules maybe make a grapple check to activate?) +1 to-hit dice pool if weilding a knife. Negate bonus for defending v multiple attackers per rank of Systema (ie if 2 ranks in Systema, negate any multi enemy bonus v 1 or 2 attackers.
Do these sound appropriate to Systema?
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I wouldn't sweat it too much. Cherry pick the maneuvers and abilities you like, and call it a day. Mix up whatever you like from Wrestling and Krav Maga or Wildcat (to get a mixture of grappling and militant/brutal stuff), and go back to rolling dice and having fun. ;D
There's no real way to get much of a "movement over strength" principle into play in a role playing game where so much of close combat is based on Strength. In fact, I'll even go so far as to wager that that's not terribly far from real life, in that I'll bet most hardcore Systema guys are in pretty fantastic shape, whether their art claims to require it or not -- all else being equal, being stronger isn't going to hurt you in a fight (all else being equal, I said!).
I wouldn't let the "not strength, movement!" bog you down. Just chalk it up as something that's simplified for game purposes, and call it good.
Crit, I'm a big strong guy. I know how to blast through a "static" defense by using my mass/strength fairly well. WCD being a soft style I had lots of "fun" having my power redirected with gentle wrist flick defenses. Most if not all, martial artists are in good cardio shape, however the smaller students had an easier time performing WCD than us bulls, why, because they didn't have to rethink how to apply their power. They didn't have any and yet because of the art they had it in boat loads.Vs Wing Chun Do being strong does hurt ALOT more! I have the bruises to prove it.
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"All else being equal." If you were getting casually brushed aside by gentle flicks of the wrist, your technique probably wasn't equal to theirs.
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"All else being equal." If you were getting casually brushed aside by gentle flicks of the wrist, your technique probably wasn't equal to theirs.
Nope it's how the system works. I was trying to power the defenses and our fireplug of an assistant instructor crushed my "block". However when I snapped/flicked the technique correctly, his arm stopped like He hit a steel pole. There was no real brute power behind the technique like I was used to from other styles. but with the properly delivered flick... its like blocking with a support pole. Trust me it's in the experience, my words just cannot do the system justice.
One of the systems axiums is that for every direction of energy there is at least 3 other ways that energy wants to go and it doesn't take but a gentle nudge to make it alter course.
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USDA, I'd say the last bit about multi-attackers would be the most fitting. I've been in multiple lessons where my teacher took on five people at once (myself included), and made us look like a bunch of extras from a martial arts flick. Also your explanation of your experiences in wing chun do seem to resemble my own in systema (although my teacher often states it's actually extremely close to tai chi and often likes to prove it. hes got 20 years in tai chi and 12 in systema).
thanks for the help.
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I'm just gonna assume I'm being somehow unclear, and call it a day.
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no crit, you made sense as far as gameplay, and that will most likely be the approach I take provided I can get that multi-opponent benefit. the part where you lost us was in the assumption of a large amount of strength being employed for the techniques. my own teacher is over sixty years old and is no hercules by any stretch of the imagination, yet this is the same teacher who can plow through five people like it was child's play.
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Right, but those five people he plows through are -- obviously, since he's plowing through them -- obviously not his equals. My point is, very specifically, that all else being equal, someone with greater strength will win a fight. Just like, all else being equal, someone with greater speed would win a fight. Or greater anything, if the two were completely equal in every other way.
There are techniques out there, and yes entire martial arts, that are built around not relying on strength. But if you know those techniques, are a true master of them, are as expert in them as whoever it is you're fighting against, and have strength anyways, you've got an edge. When you do X, it will be a little harder to stop. When you do Y, it will be a little more damaging. When you do Z, it will be a little harder to get free from.
I'm not saying strength is all that matters, but I am saying that strength can matter. Every reputable fighting organization in the world breaks their matches down based on weight classes for a reason, y'know? Bruce Lee worked out hard to add strength (not just speed, not just technique) to his toolbox for a reason. I know about diverting a punch just enough to make it miss (though I did it with knife stabs, instead), about conserving power, about harnessing the incoming attack instead of stopping it...but I just can't buy it when someone says strength doesn't matter at all.
If you take two martial artists, of any art, who are otherwise exactly the same -- same skill level, same mental focus, same capacity to withstand discomfort, same speed, same experience, same reach, same everything -- and one is stronger than the other...he'll win. He'll have the only edge in the fight, by definition.
Usda, even you said that your issues with WCD didn't come from your physical strength, it came from your mindset about that physical strength. Being powerful wasn't your problem, having to "rethink how to apply that power" was.
At any rate, I think the whole thread's been derailed by someone picking out my one line of text, "all else being equal, being stronger isn't going to hurt you in a fight," and that wasn't my intent (which is why I tried to say "all else being equal" several times)...when I think we're in general agreement on how to stat up Systema for a Shadowrun game.
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Systema seems like an interesting martial art to learn, I'd love to learn it in fact. Of what I know I'd use the Set up, Multistrike, Disorient, Clinch, and Disarm manuvers to simulate it.
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in that case Ange, i'll add in a simple statement thats often taught to systema practitioners. "Don't fight to win, fight to survive." This one saying can open up a whole new set of opportunities in both game play and RL.
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It's ironic that in the Shadowrun rules, Strength doesn't matter for blocking. The huge troll may do more damage than the puny human, but for purposes of blocking, Agility and skill are all that matter - someone with a Strength of 1 can block the attacks of someone with a Strength of 10 with no problem whatsoever.
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It's ironic that in the Shadowrun rules, Strength doesn't matter for blocking. The huge troll may do more damage than the puny human, but for purposes of blocking, Agility and skill are all that matter - someone with a Strength of 1 can block the attacks of someone with a Strength of 10 with no problem whatsoever.
In a hard style you are right Glyph. I can out power most people (blocking)and few people can over power my blocks. In Wing a 115 girl/young lady can stop/deflect every one of my punches (280+ lbs). If I could see the darn punches coming I'm sure I could block 'em! ::)
With everything else being equal my power should crush through my instructors better speed, because I was/am far far stronger than him.
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With everything else being equal my power should crush through my instructors better speed, because I was/am far far stronger than him.
That's kind of the point I'm trying to make -- the fact you describe them as your instructor means that their technique and knowledge are probably superior to yours, and you outright say they've got better speed. That means there is no "everything else being equal." See what I mean?
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A rooted rock has better speed than I do most the time LOL. It's why I relied on strength for so long. I learned I can take a hit ot two so I can bust some ribs, or a jaw most of the time, I am not going to test that theory in WCD cause I don't think my body will take a hit from a 200+ lbs sledgehammer (ie fist in WCD). :-\
I use the instructor cause well I have some of my favorite stories with him.
One of my favorites is when I got the "snap" right with a backfist. Then itt hit so hard it pulled Sifu off his feet and stretched his arm to the limit each time. He made an addendum to his previous statement to the class, "Ok Backfists are a stunning technique, unless Usda is delivering it!"