Shadowrun
Off-topic => General Gaming => Topic started by: FastJack on <09-22-10/1407:55>
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So, it was mentioned on the Horror Stories (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=212.msg7666#msg7666) thread that a discussion about dice superstitions should be started.
Ask, and ye shall receive.
To start off, I go this neat 'scrap-booking'/hobby case for a Christmas a few years back from the ex (before she was ex) and I've been keeping all my gaming stuff and dice in these trays. I group them by the set they belong to, making sure sets don't mix (unless it was a mixed set to begin with). The only ones that do mix on a general basis are the mini-dice, but that's because I can fit multiple dice in a single slot.
I've only got two main superstitions, though. The first is that if I use dice, they have to be of the same set. The only exception for this was for a Changeling character I played in Eberron where it made more sense to my superstition that every die should be from a different set. So whether it be a set of polyhedrons for D&D or a bunch of d6's for Shadowrun/BattleTech, they gotta match in style.
The second thing is that when the dice ain't rollin', they're showin'. In other words, if I'm not actively using them at the moment, I got them all sitting there showing the highest result on the particular die. The way I see it, if they sit like that, they get used to having that number show (and gravity pulls on it, subtly altering the dice to 'pull' to that number).
What about yours?
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I really don't have any. I like to keep my dice together, but that's more possessiveness than anything else.
Oh, BTW, if you want to play SR for any length of time, invest in some casino dice and ditch the rounded edges/pips out dice. Your characters will thank you for it.
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I don't have any either. I'm not a superstitious person.
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Apparently The Doomed One had an issue with his dice once... He has a d6 cut in half in his dice bag which he leaves on the table to "keep his dice in line" :o
In a CBT game I needed 5's to hit a Mech once... I missed 6 times!
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Well, I don't have a superstition, but this guy I played Battletech either did or thought I had loaded dice.
I needed 10s to hit his mech with my machine guns. I head shotted him with them 3 turns in a row. He threatend to crush my dice in a vice, although with the look on his face he might have been speaking about something else, entirely...
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You just have to love the vagaries of probability. And the occasional slight imbalances that can come with cheaply made dice.
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I once had an "Impact Resistant" d20. It was doing me wrong at a table one night in the barracks. I grabbed my wrist rocket and determined that Impact resistant is relative to the surface impacting on (cinder block wall) and the velocity which it impacts! the Die glitched on impact.
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I have enough trouble keeping 10 small d6 in my hands when I'm rolling them. o_0;; Casino dice are not small.
My dice HAVE to match. Period. I am ridiculously OCD about that. XD I only have 7 white/clear d6 so I had to keep borrowing Dad's and Doom's... and I wouldn't even touch the colored ones. XD I have to either use the clear crystals, or the white minis, or the blue and gold, or the two bone d6 when I'm playing D&D. If I need more of a particular die I'll just re-roll them as needed.
They have to be in a straight line with the high number facing up, and if I have more than one set on me, the set I'm not using HAS to be put away... Though that more stemmed out of losing so many damn dice to couch monsters.
Touching the dice without permission will get you slapped. No negotiations. Unless you're like... helping me pick up wayward ones or something. I'm not THAT bitchy, contrary to popular opinion.
When I'm adjusting dice pools, the dice that rolled ones and twos get banished out of the dice tray first. I also will change up the base 10 dice I keep out about halfway through the session, more if they're sucking.
My dice have been threatened with fire, and I've thrown one set of d6 out after going 7 hours without hitting a damn thing in battletech, only to break the streak by failing my piloting skill roll, falling over, and then critting myself in the head. I would have done much more horrible things to them with all the rest lined up to watch had I had more time.
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I use dice from the same set as well. I have also been known to buy dice for a character and only use them with that character. For one character it took me 6 years to find the right dice for her then the game died! LOL
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Casino dice are the truest rolling dice you are going to see at a game table. I highly recommend them.
The dice with the pips out roll low numbers more often than high numbers. This isn't superstition, this is science fact. When you dig the pips out, the mass of each facing changes slightly. The more pips, the less mass that facing has. And because of momentum:
P = m * v
the more mass a side has, the more momentum that side has. This makes it more likely to rebound away from the table. If the die has rounded edges, then it requires less energy to roll over or bounce to another face.
Factoring all this in, the "6" face has more mass taken from it, therefore it has less momentum => less likely to roll over => more likely to stop with the "1" face up. The same can be said of the "2" and "3" face, but these become less pronounced as the difference in momentum of each face pair becomes smaller and smaller.
Of course, if you are using faces with numbers instead of pips, one has to calculate the mass removed from each face at that point. That is a lot more calculation, and not terribly useful, as the difference in momentum is likely to be very small. Since pips are the most popular D6 style, however, it is something to consider.
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Well, one friend has been known to stop on the bridge crossing the Susquehanna river on his way home from a game. They sleeps with the fishes now. He's also been know to bring a hammer with him to games to make public demonstrations of problem dice.
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I'm also a "If its not rollin', its showin'" type.
And I don't like other people touching my dice, which, since I always have them showing high numbers, they tend to do. Either they flick them, flip them or toss things from across the table, on occasion, to move my dice.
I do have a d20 that I purchased at least 15 years ago. When I started playing again back 4 years or so ago, I found it and used it. In fact, last Monday I was running a DnD game and it rolled three 20s out of 4 rolls, at one point. Even when I don't play a game that needs it, I like to bring it along and keep it on the table.
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Oh! And the dice forts. A friend of mine would construct the most elaborate dice forts between rounds, but then have to play dice jenga to get out which one she was going to roll.
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Gun Nut, the changes in mass you're talking about are minuscule. And the changes in momentum are likely to be very small. It's doubtful that over a decent sized sample base, casino dice would roll out noticeably more high numbers.
And the OCDs among you would hate my dice. They're all randomly assorted. I don't ever buy collections, I just pick ones I like.
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They produce significant, notable changes in the odds of rolling a specific number.
For example, the worst offenders are the small, rounded, pipped D6's, which roll 1's approximately 30% of the time.
Larger dice (rounded and pipped) roll 1's approximately 25% of the time.
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Well I have a lucky d20 for D&D. I've had it since I was like 15. Some of the numbers are starting to wear off. For instance the 7 looks like a 1 now.
I used to be alot worse with the lucky dice. I had lucky dice, lucky coins, lucky numbers, lucky cards, lucky knives, lucky lighters, and good luck rituals.
Also I ate lucky charms for breakfast, named my dog lucky, and went to potlucks... just to be safe.
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Have you actually researched this or something? If so, how many rolls are you doing for this?
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If you truly are worried about the precision of your dice, and don't care that much about money, I'd recommend GameScience (http://www.gamescience.com/) dice. Each one is checked almost as detailed as casino dice.
Edit: I should also mention that Mr. Zocchi has been a regular attendant at GenCon, demonstrating how his dice are accurate. I'm considering stopping by next year with some of my "lucky" dice to see if they really are off-balance by taking them for a test spin in his caliper.
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In the end, I really just don't give enough a crap to bother.
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I read the research article and watched a small video presentation on it. The researchers were using 2000 to 3000 dice and rolling sets of 100 to 1000 (sets of rolls). Their sample size approached the millions (I don't recall the exact number). It's hard to find on the internet anymore, although I have linked to it once or twice on other boards. I'll search for the particular files later, as I have to go to sleep so that I can work this evening.
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You're talking to a family who has bought loaded dice and still managed to roll average on them.
And we also had a player that drilled out the one pip to eventually load it, never got around to it, and they still roll average too.
And all that babble about dice with graphics for the one or six rolling differently... they don't. Not really.
And my small rounded d6 roll way better than my numbered dice do. And my big d6. And especially the crystal d6 (BUT THEY'RE SO PRETTY).
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Read my last post.
It's hard for me to get that worked up over something so minor.
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Those precision dice you linked are actually cheaper than some of the sets I've bought... and the gem ones are purdy...
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I don't... really talk about the dice. There's nothing good that comes from talking about them.
Suffice to say, it's ugly stuff. ;)
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Heh... One day, I *WILL* have these (http://crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=02152T12&Category_Code=XS). And these (http://crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=02153S&Category_Code=XS). Oh, and these (http://crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=02154T&Category_Code=XS). And most definitely, THESE (http://crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=02155T&Category_Code=XS) (Frak the Kraken!)
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Ok, found an article (not sure if it was the one I originally read, but looks close) (also, I couldn't let it go). The article is originally for Warhammer 40k players, but since SR uses D6's, it seems relevant.
You can find it here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That's_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice (http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That's_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice).
And the original post here which inspired it here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65531 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65531).
Truthfully, 29% is a HUGE change from 16.7% (or 1/6). That's very close to double the chance of rolling a 1 with the rounded dice vs. straight odds. Given the number of D6's to be rolled in Shadowrun, where too many 1's result in a glitch or critical glitch, then it is worth looking into.
And, yes, the Gamescience dice look really nice. The shape of the D3 looks good. I'm not too sure about using a D5 though.
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I want a set of copper, quartz, and bloodstone dice. From experience the stone and bone ones roll TERRIBLY since there's really no way to balance them, but they're just <i>cool</i>. I still use my bone d6 purely on the principle that they're bone. XD
And I broke several people's brains with my d3. It's handy though. Rolls super weird, but it's handy. Crystal d20s never STOP rolling and are a pain to read.
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What about the meteorite ones? Drop it from orbit and see what civilization you wipe out before it stops rolling?
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Of course, there's also these (http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/games/e588/) for when you like throwing dice across the room but don't want to mar the wall's paint job.
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Or just want dice big enough to chuck and then find again. XD I have to get a couple things from thinkgeek ANYWAY... >_>;;
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You can be sure you won't lose them in the couch too! Of course, they aren't guaranteed against pets and small children... ;)
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29%? I've never noticed rolling anywhere near that many ones. Eh, whatever.
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I just like all my dice the same or as a set; and I occasionally buy new dice if I like them. I absolutely HATE dice I can't read. Good contrast is a must. I also tend to pick out dice that "fits" my character. Magic user? Depends on the favorite spell, but usually Lightning or Fire. Then I get Crackly Blue (preferably clear/marble type dice) or fiery red with orange speckles. Street Sam? Silverish, Gold, or some metal type dice is a must. if I can't get a metal, I get metallic paints on the pips/numbers. Nature character? I try and find a "natural" set, like from a stone or bone. If not, i get the colors of nature; green generally.
I can really see the mixing of dice with a heavily chaotic character or shapeshifter.
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I don't... really talk about the dice. There's nothing good that comes from talking about them.
Suffice to say, it's ugly stuff. ;)
Oh no, Hellbie, you don't think we're going to let you off that easy are you? Do I have to drag Ben over here to tell tales first hand?
Folk's in the hardcore BattleTech community there is a saying, it's one spoken in angered whispers if you are afflicted by it and in great sweeping tales if you are witness to it. The legend of Hellbie dice are without par.
You have here the maker of that legend. Don't let him off the hook.
;D
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<orders home delivery of one month's supply of Starkaf's premium kaf blend to Hellbie's home address>
Do tell!
Quid Pro Quo: Sometimes I gets lucky. Hence, the reason the superstitions stay. One battle I had my Samurai fighting a Sword spider. One-on-one (the other members of the group were focusing on the other two spiders). By this time, I had 5 attacks with two-weapon fighting. I rolled them up and got 4 natural 20's. Then confirmed those bad-boys. The other PCs had to stop and gawk as the GM declared I had systematically removed all eight legs before cutting its body in half (lengthwise) before it hit the ground. I then helped them with their problems.
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Luck has a factor in Hellbie's games.
When he shows up, everyone else knows they'll be getting lucky. :)
Seriously HB, I could third had tell tales on you, but you are such a better story teller.
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Sounds like Hellbringer is up there with dad's losing initiative for a year straight.
His combat was fine. He just never. Ever. Won initiative.
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I used to be really superstitious. Never let anyone touch my dice, pre-rolled out 1's, kept them in a dark, dry place in a silk sheet...
Now I just don't give a fuck. Except for my shadowrun dice (the ones with the shadowrun snake on the 5 and 6), those are sacred, but only because they were a birthday gift from my best friend. Which gives them superpowers. Just sayin'...
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I'm like that with my uncle's dice and a family friend's. They're not a matched set, but I use them anyway because they were left to me.
Though really I shouldn't use them. My uncle had a very, very twisted sense of humor. -_- I wouldn't be surprised if he's jinxed them from the other side or something. XD
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I had another superstition though, which died when I switched to excel character sheets. Back in the day, when I wrote down a new character which I thought was cool and the tip of the pencil broke, so I would have had to resharpen the pencil... I threw the character right out. Never failed me. I kind of thought "Hey, if this is Karma, then I guess Excel will crash if I roll up a shitty character." Never happened.
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XD I'm too heavy handed of a writer to go by that. I don't trust myself to have computer based character sheets. If my computer is open I am on the internet and if I am on the internet chances are I am NOT PAYING ATTENTION.
Like I keep opening my computer to update my Mythweaver sheet for Doom like he's been asking... every single time it's photoshop and deviantART that opens for some bizzare reason... It's so weird! >.>;;
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I will note one odd thing about a certain D20 I have. Whenever I played my 4E D&D rogue, the first attack roll of every combat was a critical hit with this die. Every single one.
I need to emphasize that again. Whenever I rolled the first attack of a combat with this one D20 with my 4E rogue (and only this character) it got a critical hit.
EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
It was downright odd.
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My dad had a player once that had this ugly crap-brown d20 that would just about ALWAYS roll criticals... only when in his hands. Dad suspected it was loaded and tossed it a few times and it rolled normal for EVERYONE ELSE but that one player.
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Well, I've known more than a few gamers that have perfected the dice toss to always get the result they wanted. To the point where I can spot the techniques at various gaming tables. Another good reason to buy people dice cups as gifts... ;)
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Casino dice are the truest rolling dice you are going to see at a game table. I highly recommend them.
The dice with the pips out roll low numbers more often than high numbers. This isn't superstition, this is science fact. When you dig the pips out, the mass of each facing changes slightly. The more pips, the less mass that facing has. And because of momentum:
P = m * v
the more mass a side has, the more momentum that side has. This makes it more likely to rebound away from the table. If the die has rounded edges, then it requires less energy to roll over or bounce to another face.
Factoring all this in, the "6" face has more mass taken from it, therefore it has less momentum => less likely to roll over => more likely to stop with the "1" face up. The same can be said of the "2" and "3" face, but these become less pronounced as the difference in momentum of each face pair becomes smaller and smaller.
Of course, if you are using faces with numbers instead of pips, one has to calculate the mass removed from each face at that point. That is a lot more calculation, and not terribly useful, as the difference in momentum is likely to be very small. Since pips are the most popular D6 style, however, it is something to consider.
What the simian said. Not to mention that dice are 'pipped' so that all opposite sides equal 7 so that the balance is as equalized as can be.
In an SPC (Statistical Process Control) Class I was in the teacher brought in 4 d6 and everyone in the class made 10 rolls. When the totals were calculated our Rbar(statistical average) was 4.8. I asked why so high? The teach was puzzled cause they normally averaged 4.3. Turns out 2 of the dice had no 1 or 2. They had 3,3,4,4,5,6. But statistically you will average 4.3 when rolling d6s
My clan wolf faction dice is an anomily then. Because I had more head hits with them than eny other set of dice ever! I miss those dice!
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OK, ok, I'll give you two examples of Hellbie Dice. And hopefully you'll understand a little better.
Mind you, these are only two of many.
1) Clan Trials, in Spokane, WA- summer 2005. I'm acting as the opposing force while a player takes part in a Trial. He's in a Thor. I'm in a Kraken, with ten light autocannons. For those not familiar, these guns jam permanently on a roll of 2. I fire all ten at long range, hoping to sandblast his already-damaged armor and hurt him before he can even respond.
Jamming one or two is to be expected. Three or four, a bit hard to imagine, but plausible.
Well, I jammed SEVEN. Including ALL FIVE in the right arm. On the FIRST SHOTS FIRED.
With only three cannons remaining, the Thor had an easy round. The dice were melted via pocket-torch in the parking lot outside of Merlyns Games, and to my knowledge are still a small brown puddle on the asphalt to this very day.
2) An online Trial via Megamek, winter 2004.. My opponent, a Clan Wolf player, is in a Mad Cat E. I, however, roll the old MFUK Black Knight IIC, for some amusement. One map only- the old Citytech map, with the big concrete pad in the middle. I move first- and run out onto the concrete, turn, and head up towards him to bring my short-range battery into play. I need a 3 to not fall down and skid on pavement- and biff it. Crash to the ground on my rear, taking a pilot hit in the process. Skid destroys the right rear torso armor, critical hit, AMS ammo. Two more pilot hits, torso destroyed (fortunately, standard engine!). Ow, right? Well, the rest of the skid destroyed the LEFT rear torso armor, critical hit, SRM ammo. Two more pilot hits, torso destroyed.
I'm now unconscious, need an 11 to wake up, on my rear, with both arms and side torsos destroyed.
And now the Mad Cat takes it's first steps of the game. FML.
Hellbie Dice: Needing a 3 and rolling a 2, needing an 11 and rolling a 10.
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Yeah... I've done that too! Any Mech design at our table named Jupiter dies by head shot! Including a 190T Super Heavy. Did I mention this happens at Gauss or LRM long range & before the Jupiter has delivered a single point of damage often before a shot has been fired from the Jupiter! Now I'm not sure if thats a dice horror story or something else! :)
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What the simian said. Not to mention that dice are 'pipped' so that all opposite sides equal 7 so that the balance is as equalized as can be.
In an SPC (Statistical Process Control) Class I was in the teacher brought in 4 d6 and everyone in the class made 10 rolls. When the totals were calculated our Rbar(statistical average) was 4.8. I asked why so high? The teach was puzzled cause they normally averaged 4.3. Turns out 2 of the dice had no 1 or 2. They had 3,3,4,4,5,6. But statistically you will average 4.3 when rolling d6s
My clan wolf faction dice is an anomily then. Because I had more head hits with them than eny other set of dice ever! I miss those dice!
[/quote]Emphasis mine.
The numbers per pair of facings is equal, but the mass of each face is not. A '1' pip mass does not equal the '6' pip mass. Nor does it equal any of the other pips (in this, we are assuming "pips" means missing mass within the face as a "hole"). The 40 rolls made were insufficient to truly see the average with sufficient confidence. Not that you might have hit the average by random chance, just that confidence was not high enough.
If the dice have an odd shape dug out or have the numbers painted on, then the previous text I mentioned will not apply. Those numbers only apply to the pipped dice. Any others will have to be taken on their own merits (assuming someone tests them sufficiently).
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But the 7 pips (both sides total) equal the other faces total mass loss when combined. The proof is in the numbers I have on a usual tumble, a near even # of 6 & 1s, as many 5 as 2, and 3 or 4
A fault in the logic being used is that the Piant used to 'pip' a casino die adds weight to a side so the same logic, though less intense would still tip a die to one side more than another.
As for my qualifications on the subject of Statistics & probability, I have taken two statistics courses for work & set up an SPC program used for our prototype Machine shop. Running SPC now for over 24 years. I see trends almost as fast as the programs can calculate the numbers ;D ( yeah... just a little bragging.)
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No, each face, looked at separately, has it's own mass. To truly view the probabilities, you can't treat the die as a point mass anymore. Each face has a different amount of mass, this changes the center of mass of the object, if that term makes more sense to you. They don't balance out, because the COM is not the physical center of the die when pips are removed.
An abstract calculation on a computer won't show this (unless you are using some really nice physics software to model the dice, and not just a number generator), a large number of physical dice must be rolled. If you'd like, I can go through a dice rolling exercise this week post the results. I have at least 5 different types of dice (from small, rounded and pipped to casino) to use. Since I don't have a bunch of people to help me, it will take me a week at least to garner 100,000+ die rolls (if not longer).
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But the 7 pips (both sides total) equal the other faces total mass loss when combined. The proof is in the numbers I have on a usual tumble, a near even # of 6 & 1s, as many 5 as 2, and 3 or 4
A fault in the logic being used is that the Piant used to 'pip' a casino die adds weight to a side so the same logic, though less intense would still tip a die to one side more than another.
As for my qualifications on the subject of Statistics & probability, I have taken two statistics courses for work & set up an SPC program used for our prototype Machine shop. Running SPC now for over 24 years. I see trends almost as fast as the programs can calculate the numbers ;D ( yeah... just a little bragging.)
It's not an issue of total pips on two sides equalling one another, it's an issue of poorly (read: cheaply) made dice that don't have the same weight on any one side. Casino dice have their pips indented differently, the paint within the pips applied differently, etc, etc, so that they'll roll true; their livelihood depends on it.
Your average cheap-ass gamer dice, or especially expensive-ass gamer dice with strange symbols on theminstead of just numbers, don't. They're novelty items, not "real" dice. Probability theories aside, the simple fact is they're imperfect dice.
It's not a question of logic or qualifications, it's a matter of not all dice being created equal. It's also not an issue of "a usual tumble," but rather of a long, long, series of tumbles over a long, long, period of time. Some "gamer dice," particularly the small and cheap ones we all love to buy by the brick, have been shown to come up low in the past, over the course of thousands and thousands of rolls.
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Thank you for stating that another way, Critias. I'm not sure I was saying it properly (ok, typing).
Dammit, now I'm curious. I have to do the dice experiment, now. Will keep you posted on details.
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Directed Dice Luck. The setting is the CBT Fan Council '62 game (Think a BT MMPORG via posts with each player playing an entire Faction (MegaCorp).
The target is the McKenna-class BattleShip. In BT there are only about one or two other spaceships that are badder assed than the McKenna and none of them have a five century legacy. There were about fifteen of them in the game.
In the entire course of the game (about three odd years of real time), every time a McKenna entered combat it was destroyed. Even when two faced off against eachother, they both died.
The dice just hated the McKenna
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Of course, that might've just been everyone focusing fire on the McKenna, too (it's hard to blame 'em!).
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Of course, that might've just been everyone focusing fire on the McKenna, too (it's hard to blame 'em!).
All the space battles were done via simple resolution. All random, the McKenna's just got unlucky.
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Of course, that might've just been everyone focusing fire on the McKenna, too (it's hard to blame 'em!).
All the space battles were done via simple resolution. All random, the McKenna's just got unlucky.
Huh. Fair enough, then.
I figured maybe they just fell prey to "Assault-itis," where everyone sees the Awesome, Atlas, Battlemaster, etc, and says "Oh (*#$%&" and just opens fire. ;)
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^that happened to me at one of my first cons. Set my atlas down in a mechgrinder and the next round all that was left was my head, gyro, and legs.
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No, each face, looked at separately, has it's own mass. To truly view the probabilities, you can't treat the die as a point mass anymore. Each face has a different amount of mass, this changes the center of mass of the object, if that term makes more sense to you. They don't balance out, because the COM is not the physical center of the die when pips are removed.
An abstract calculation on a computer won't show this (unless you are using some really nice physics software to model the dice, and not just a number generator), a large number of physical dice must be rolled. If you'd like, I can go through a dice rolling exercise this week post the results. I have at least 5 different types of dice (from small, rounded and pipped to casino) to use. Since I don't have a bunch of people to help me, it will take me a week at least to garner 100,000+ die rolls (if not longer).
Under SPC, 25 groups will generate a good Rbar and control range per group. Use dice in groups of 4, Your average should be around 3.7 IIRC +.5. a group of 25 samples can give you a good ball park CPK score. (CPK will tell you the number of probable hits within the control range per thousand, millions or even billions :o!) Save yourself some time. ;D
Smaller dice would be affected by weight loss more than the standard die, and the standard die would be more prone that than the casino die even if pips were drilled instead of painted.
Please understand I'm not trying to be a know it all. I have just done statistics for nearly 2 decades. I am pretty sure I know numbers and how they role (pun intended). I'm just adding my experience to the conversation :)
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So... statistics students know how to cheat better? ;D
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So... statistics students know how to cheat better? ;D
Of course we do. ;)
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And they really don't study physics as much as the physics/chemistry students, who are required to study statistics in order to prepare and present their experimental findings to their peers.
I'm not arguing pure math here, I'm talking about the physics of the roll. A random number generator won't take the physical, material properties of real physical, material dice into account. That happens through pure experimentation. And experimentation says that pipped out dice do NOT roll true.
Casino dice, with a near perfect center of mass, flat facings and sharp edges and corners come the closest to true random that you will find. Rounded edges and corners, pips dug out, and inferior quality control mean that the rounded dice do not roll true, and are more significantly affected by the changes to the CoM and the rounding.
Will casual play with typical numbers of dice rolls during a game of Shadowrun show them to you? While the odds are skewed, they are still random, and one could easily see 50% of the dice roll 5 and 6. But that small number of rolls do not make an adequate sample size. Hundreds of thousands of rolls will most likely display the real odds generated by each die.
EDIT: For spelling.
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I do want to try Casino dice for that exact reason. I watched a show on how they make em. I was very impressed how they balanced them to within like .00004 true! The rounding was for impact resistance as the story goes. I need to see how 'different' true cube dice roll vs the everyday die. We do realize how mundane our lives are when we want to eek out such a small advantage as casino dice v gaming dice for our ficticious characters! :o ::) ;D :D
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There is no "true" random. Anywhere.
It's the Schroedinger's cat of the Statistics world. If we use tools such as dice to determine a random number, we have to mark each side of the die to distinguish what we're looking at. An no matter how you mark it, there is no way to create a "perfect" mark (or even a perfect cube) that won't influence the outcome, no matter how miniscule.
What about the "Random" function on a calculator? Or RAND() in Excel? Both use a Pseudorandom Number Generator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator) that mimics the properties of random numbers. Even the random number from Random.org (http://www.random.org/) are generated by atmospheric noise, which seem to be the most random thing in our limited environment. But even that can be debated.
The thing is, you work with what you got. Are Casino Dice more balanced than most gaming dice? Yes, since casinos have to live by rules that enforce a higher standard (if there was a professional gaming league, they'd be using the same dice to be sure). And for every study that shows pipped dice roll low more often than high, you can find another that says the opposite (http://www.nucleuslearning.com/content/dice-randomness).
Which brings us back to the original topic. Superstitions arise from because people believe that their objects have 'memory'. Las Vegas was built on that principal. When you go to a roulette table in a casino, they usually have an LCD screen showing what the last 10-20 numbers were. This is to entice you to bet that the table "remembers" those numbers and will influence the outcome of the next number. Many gamers will bring their dice out at the beginning of the game and roll them a half-dozen times to "get the 1's out".
My point of all this? As long as you aren't using loaded dice, the differences are so minuscule to not matter. And that's coming from somebody that graduated with a Mathematics degree and took Advance Physics for fun.
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LOL I scold gamers for that. Cause you waste your 6s! ;D
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Well, 29% vs 16.7% seems pretty significant to me, FJ. Especially since all the other chances have to change as a result. The article didn't say how likely the 6 was, but assuming worst case scenario, then it dropped by a similar amount (not likely, I'd say). That would make it a 3% chance of happening (really doubt that result).
I don't forsee that in my upcoming trials, but I will display all the results when I finish.
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I agree that's significant. However, it's the outcome of one tester's findings. That's the wonderful thing about Random numbers. They're random and not going to follow the rules. Yes, flipping a coin results in Heads coming up 50% of the time. However, if you flip a coin 100 times, do you expect to get 50 heads? Most likely not. The probability chance that you get exactly 50 Heads in 100 flips of a coin is 7.96%.
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I have found that rubbing te dice on my nipples produces not only excellent rolls, but also serves to creap out my players/opponent. It was hillarity unleashed when I did it at the Mechwarrior World Fellowship Championship.
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I will have to try this technique Caine! ;D :o
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I have found that rubbing te dice on my nipples produces not only excellent rolls, but also serves to creap out my players/opponent. It was hillarity unleashed when I did it at the Mechwarrior World Fellowship Championship.
That wouldn't even make some of the gamers I know blink. Let just say one or two of them have claimed to be "intimate" with their dice.
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I have found that rubbing te dice on my nipples produces not only excellent rolls, but also serves to creap out my players/opponent. It was hillarity unleashed when I did it at the Mechwarrior World Fellowship Championship.
That wouldn't even make some of the gamers I know blink. Let just say one or two of them have claimed to be "intimate" with their dice.
That's...
...
...I'm not going to lie, that's really a horrible mental image. I'm locking up my dice bag and never using anyone elses again now. You've ruined gaming for me forever, and I'm going to go jump off the Washington Monument on my lunch break.
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I have found that rubbing te dice on my nipples produces not only excellent rolls, but also serves to creap out my players/opponent. It was hillarity unleashed when I did it at the Mechwarrior World Fellowship Championship.
That wouldn't even make some of the gamers I know blink. Let just say one or two of them have claimed to be "intimate" with their dice.
That's...
...
...I'm not going to lie, that's really a horrible mental image. I'm locking up my dice bag and never using anyone elses again now. You've ruined gaming for me forever, and I'm going to go jump off the Washington Monument on my lunch break.
Don't worry... Those individuals have been carefully removed from any contact with society. They live in a small closet next to the laundry room and aren't allowed to roll their dice on the table, but have their own tray to roll dice in. ;D
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RFLMFAO.
I'm laughing too hard to come up with a witty retort to that. Especially not a PG-13 one.
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This is just so wrong... the gods of gaming can't be amused :/
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I agree that's significant. However, it's the outcome of one tester's findings. That's the wonderful thing about Random numbers. They're random and not going to follow the rules. Yes, flipping a coin results in Heads coming up 50% of the time. However, if you flip a coin 100 times, do you expect to get 50 heads? Most likely not. The probability chance that you get exactly 50 Heads in 100 flips of a coin is 7.96%.
This is quite true, but saying that doesn't change the fact that that is the most likely result. There are hundreds of possible outcomes of the 100 coin flips, and the 50 heads/tails mark is the most likely. Just like a 7 is the most likely result of rolling 2D6 and adding the faces together, and that is a 16.7% chance.
When the dice are rolled hundreds of thousands or even millions of times, the most likely outcome will (most likely) show up in the percentages. Since the result cannot be predicted (easily), then I want to know the chance that each result will show up. And if I'm wanting an edge in playing, I want the dice that favor the best possible outcome. Will they roll that consistanly? Over time, yes. For an individual roll? Who knows. That's not the point. What I want is that edge, that little bit of chance to swing my way, and that is the reason I favor casino D6's for games like WARMACHINE, HORDES, Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40K and Shadowrun.
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*pets Shadowrun symbol dice* I'll stick with style ;D
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I'm all for using whatever you want (like I said, the dice I prefer get lots of questioning looks). But I'm just pointing out that there is no way to get a truly random chance on any dice. Yes, it may be more balanced than others, but even Casino dice could have imperfections. That imperfection may be that out of 1000 rolls, it comes up one 170 times instead of the predicted 167.
My preference is to not worry so much about how "right" the dice may be, just that they aren't obviously wrong.
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I'm not judging right or wrong for anyone else, I'm just stating what I want is functionality and that the one of the best choices is the casino dice. If someone made a die that naturally favored the high side (not intentionally, but due to construction) then I would use that type, as that gives me the best function.
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Hm, the Shadowrun dice have more material "missing" from the 5 and 6 side (because of the Shadowrun snake logo), wouldn't that mean they favor turning those two sides up?
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Other way around, the less missing the better.
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I have an interesting dice being "right". Had a player many many moons ago that had this ratty old D20. Now he didn't always hit a natural 20 but he had this knack for getting them when he needed them.
We all thought he was lying/cheating! However on one occassion I watched him do the impossible. He rolled 6 natural 20s in a row! I grabbed the die & threw a 6, 8, 14 & 3. I said Ok. He rolled a 20! Face plant! :-X
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That's how my lucky dice is. It's a gem-like green d20. One of those ones you can kinda see through. All the numbers and edges are really worn. Anyway it's a normal d20 most of the time, but when I really need it it always saves my ass with really high rolls.
I had a lucky coin that always won me coin flips and a lucky number that always won at "pick a number between one and ten" also.
These days I don't care that much. I'm more logical and a bit less superstitious. Still, I don't feel quite right using other d20s, so I still use mine.
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I have an interesting dice being "right". Had a player many many moons ago that had this ratty old D20. Now he didn't always hit a natural 20 but he had this knack for getting them when he needed them.
We all thought he was lying/cheating! However on one occassion I watched him do the impossible. He rolled 6 natural 20s in a row! I grabbed the die & threw a 6, 8, 14 & 3. I said Ok. He rolled a 20! Face plant! :-X
I had a guy who used to roll like that- but while the die wasn't modified, he was making sure to roll it just right so he could get a 12 (on a D12) any time he needed to. If you suspect something foul (and six in a row would qualify!), ask them to use dice cups.
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I have an interesting dice being "right". Had a player many many moons ago that had this ratty old D20. Now he didn't always hit a natural 20 but he had this knack for getting them when he needed them.
We all thought he was lying/cheating! However on one occassion I watched him do the impossible. He rolled 6 natural 20s in a row! I grabbed the die & threw a 6, 8, 14 & 3. I said Ok. He rolled a 20! Face plant! :-X
I already mentioned the player with the crap-brown d20 a few pages back for ya. XD
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I don't remember if the die was brown or faded grey. You weren't even a twinkle then lil one. ;)
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oh I know, but you tell me all the gamer stories just the same. XD
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i have two or three mini-dice sets that i keep in a plain brown pouch that i got at an SCA event The black ones work well on physical tests and damage, the clear ones work well on pools and mental tests and then a scattered group of green D&D dice that roll pretty average overall
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I'm in the SCA too :)
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Wolfboy I had a player who used micro dice. As my sight grew worse (I'm now 20/20) I asked him to stop using them. When he protested I told him if he rolled em again I'd swallow em & give them back the following week. :o
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When he says micro, he means they were so small they fit in the pips of dad's giant d6s.
That player was annoying as hell.
And I -ALMOST- was in the SCA. I'll probably join later when I find someone else to go into it with/to take me in.
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I haven't gone in a couple years. I need to get some Garb (costume) together. And yeah it's alot funner when you have someone to go with you. I'd like to start going to Ren Faires again too.
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I wanted to go to the last day of faire this year buuut I'm sick right now sooo that's not gonna happen probably.
I already have garb though. :D Plenty of it!
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How did this go from dice to RenFaire?
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That sucks. Always next year though. :)
Yeah, I'm probly gonna start sewing again and make my own this time. Gonna be pretty pimpin'. Gotta save up a little for the leather I need and a nice sword though.
Who knows when I'll be able to afford armor I want for heavy combat. That's one of my goals though.
Edit: Also, stuff about dice.
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That sucks. Always next year though. :)
Yeah, I'm probly gonna start sewing again and make my own this time. Gonna be pretty pimpin'. Gotta save up a little for the leather I need and a nice sword though.
Who knows when I'll be able to afford armor I want for heavy combat. That's one of my goals though.
Edit: Also, stuff about dice.
Let's see, I've got the kilt, a black velvet vest and Twinkle and Icingdeath. What else do I need?
20d6.hits(5)=6 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2705454/)
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RenFair and SCA are very much not the same thing and neither has much to do with Dice and SRun.
Other them all being totally weird to people who don't get it.
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Oh great guardians of the forum, please forgive us for getting a little off topic in a section of the forum called Off-topic. We could not foresee the terrible consequences this would bring. You are all surely cursed with the inability to talk about dice now.
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Here's my theory on how most internet forums work. You start topic Α. There's a lot of discussion on Topic Α, but occasionally tangents occur and Topics Δ and Ω may be discussed. Now Topic Δ is just a fluke tangent and is gone as quickly as it started. Topic Ω, however, proves to be just as interesting and someone goes off and starts a new thread dealing with Topic Ω. Either way, Topic Α returns back to the original subject.
Proof of this is that the original Dice Superstitions story started on the Gaming Horror Stories (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=212.0) thread. Now I, being the creator of the thread will steer the topic back on subject when I feel we've strayed too far, or a moderator may come in and do the same.
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Unless dad and I are in the thread, in which case it goes to topic squirrel and sidewalk before we remember, "oh yeah. Topic A. Oops"
And my dad's friend's dice are making me twitch. None of them even remotely match. I actually have trouble reading them at that point. o_0;; EVERY ONE is a different color and size and pip style and shape (since he has a couple crystals).
Speaking of dice physics, how about them thar crystal dice? I like them because they're pretty, but they roll SO DAMN BAD...
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Unless dad and I are in the thread, in which case it goes to topic squirrel and sidewalk before we remember, "oh yeah. Topic A. Oops"
And my dad's friend's dice are making me twitch. None of them even remotely match. I actually have trouble reading them at that point. o_0;; EVERY ONE is a different color and size and pip style and shape (since he has a couple crystals).
Speaking of dice physics, how about them thar crystal dice? I like them because they're pretty, but they roll SO DAMN BAD...
I don't know, my adventurine d4 has been rolling pretty good since it chipped itself on a slate floor... ;D
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it's afraid you'll chip it again if it doesn't! :P
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Unless dad and I are in the thread, in which case it goes to topic squirrel and sidewalk before we remember, "oh yeah. Topic A. Oops"
And my dad's friend's dice are making me twitch. None of them even remotely match. I actually have trouble reading them at that point. o_0;; EVERY ONE is a different color and size and pip style and shape (since he has a couple crystals).
Speaking of dice physics, how about them thar crystal dice? I like them because they're pretty, but they roll SO DAMN BAD...
Your CDO just doesn't allow you to deal with his dice not matching kiddo!
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I have to keep my dice separated by game. I have my SR dice, my Dnd dice, and my WoD dice. I used to have Earthdawn dice but they got mixed in with my DnD dice after I got sick of people going "So it's just like DnD then? Why bother getting all those new books?" I also had Rifts dice but they somehow disappeared with all my Rifts books.
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Unless dad and I are in the thread, in which case it goes to topic squirrel and sidewalk before we remember, "oh yeah. Topic A. Oops"
And my dad's friend's dice are making me twitch. None of them even remotely match. I actually have trouble reading them at that point. o_0;; EVERY ONE is a different color and size and pip style and shape (since he has a couple crystals).
Speaking of dice physics, how about them thar crystal dice? I like them because they're pretty, but they roll SO DAMN BAD...
I don't know, my adventurine d4 has been rolling pretty good since it chipped itself on a slate floor... ;D
Not like... actual crystal. The skewed plastic dice in funny shapes.
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Unless dad and I are in the thread, in which case it goes to topic squirrel and sidewalk before we remember, "oh yeah. Topic A. Oops"
And my dad's friend's dice are making me twitch. None of them even remotely match. I actually have trouble reading them at that point. o_0;; EVERY ONE is a different color and size and pip style and shape (since he has a couple crystals).
Speaking of dice physics, how about them thar crystal dice? I like them because they're pretty, but they roll SO DAMN BAD...
I don't know, my adventurine d4 has been rolling pretty good since it chipped itself on a slate floor... ;D
Not like... actual crystal. The skewed plastic dice in funny shapes.
Oooh... you mean the Suppository dice? ;)
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Oooh... you mean the Suppository dice? ;)
I don't think those are meant to be used as dice...
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:D Nice. You can use d4s as caltrops though.
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Not the Gem D4's
(http://www.gmdice.com/prodimages/01404.jpg.jpg)
They're just square pegs...
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Then I don't like those. I want dice that can cripple my foes dammit!
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I don't like the look of those. I agree with Dead Monkey, the caltrop d4 are superior. Even though I have been on the receiving end far too often.
Speaking of dice that can cripple people I have some metal ones with some nice heft to them.
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(http://www.leisuregames.com/acatalog/crystal_dice.jpg)
These ones? Yeah. They SUCK to roll. That 20 never stops rolling until it hits the end of the table and then it just keeps going on the floor.
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Those aren't dice. Their halfling sling stones!
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I like them, except for the d20, and the d4 actually rolls rather than just kind of falling and not moving again.
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the triangular ones roll fine for me. its all about finesse. I bet I could roll one across a table no prob.
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I'd just manage for it to end up on the other side of the room. I've seriously considered throwing my SR dice in like.. groups of 5 or something just because they go EVERYWHERE.
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Use one of those rolling cups. Yahtzee!
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I should make up a house rule for if you get a Yahtzee on a roll. Maybe for a joke game or something. It could rain money or something.
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The only yahtzee I remember rolling was all ones. The gm looked at me and was like "You're dead" and I was all :o ??? I was trying to default on throwing a grenade so I guess it made some kind of sense.
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If you default on grenade throwing and roll a 1 Yahtzee then yeah, that's instant death. You pretty much just salsa-fied yourself.
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Yeah I know I was hoping the scatter rules would get the job done... It didn't of course :-\
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Yeah I know I was hoping the scatter rules would get the job done... It didn't of course :-\
Do not throw metallic grenades, while you have the electro magnet for wiping the computers turned on.
Do not throw grenades if you are wearing gecko gloves.
Do not throw grenades into a 90MPH head wind.
Do not throw grenades at someone behind bullet proof glass
Do not throw grenades in a rubber walled room.
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Do not throw grenades while on the Gravitron
Do not throw grenades underwater
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Do not throw grenades at the Air Elemental....
(Dang it, I'm a thread jacker...)
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Do not throw grenades at the Air Elemental....
(Dang it, I'm a thread jacker...)
You hijacked a thread that was formed because of hi jacking... I think there is a pass for that Welsh :D
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One of my friends has to blow on his dice before he rolls them says it keeps them hot.
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How you can tell if your players have spent a lot of time in Vegas: ...
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Doom also insists on keeping all his d6 on the table so he "has options."
Even though that's where my FEET are supposed to go damnit! XD
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Doom also insists on keeping all his d6 on the table so he "has options."
Even though that's where my FEET are supposed to go damnit! XD
Yeah but your feet do add some ambiance to teh Seattle night air :-X :P ;D
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I think I need to get some dice for Run. My D6s are doing OK, but I am getting as many 1s (almost) as 6s. and that will lead to some funny results eventually!
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Pandemonium, block'o 36 d 6 for like... 7 bucks or so if you don't get the fancy ones. My plain black and golds have been doing pretty well. I only glitch when it's spectacularly. XD
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There are new Munchkin dice (http://plixi.com/p/46900015) coming too...
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But my dice have to be shiny! o.o;;
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Like these? (http://compare.ebay.com/like/370438666653)
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A D20 must lie so that the preferred side (20 in DnD, 1 in DSA) lies upside.
D6s must be roled dramatically, over head, and most importantly must be thrown forcefully at the end. Hitting the table hard and sharp from above works best, but might result in the dice ending up everywhere in the room :D
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Similar, yes, though I like my Borealis or metallic threading. My SR dice are just solid black with gold pips though because I couldn't justify spending all the cash I had on me on JUST dice when I had a mini to buy too...
And Frost... your name wouldn't happen to be IAN by any chance would it? XD
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A D20 must lie so that the preferred side (20 in DnD, 1 in DSA) lies upside.
D6s must be roled dramatically, over head, and most importantly must be thrown forcefully at the end. Hitting the table hard and sharp from above works best, but might result in the dice ending up everywhere in the room :D
You sound like a kid we know named Ian!
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And Frost... your name wouldn't happen to be IAN by any chance would it? XD
You sound like a kid we know named Ian!
Nope, sorry :D
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Don't be! Ian was a favorite of ours. He threw his d6s just as you discribed. Had toi chase his dice after every throw unless someone had great reflexes! ;D
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About 30 seconds too late there, Dad.
Ian was the only other person under the age of like... 30... at the local Solaris tournaments (thankfully he was also KIND OF my age, so I wasn't completely left out being 7 or 8 and all). This kid could not ROLL his dice. He had to HURL his dice with all the force his small child body could possibly generate at the table as if it had caused him some great dishonor to his family generations ago. Dice. Went. Everywhere. But. The. Table. Which was annoying, since there was a pretty hard "it must be on the table" rule in place. This kid took forever to roll anything and get'em to stay on the table.
Didn't he BREAK dice once?
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Didn't he BREAK dice once?
Hahahaha, I have yet to manage that :D
besides, as said, I only do important rolls like that. Or usually I keep one D6 in reserve that I then throw like that if the others have failed me. Works best with only one die thrown. Multiple D6 I basically let fall from great heights, but that can also become messy, heh.
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About 30 seconds too late there, Dad.
Ian was the only other person under the age of like... 30... at the local Solaris tournaments (thankfully he was also KIND OF my age, so I wasn't completely left out being 7 or 8 and all). This kid could not ROLL his dice. He had to HURL his dice with all the force his small child body could possibly generate at the table as if it had caused him some great dishonor to his family generations ago. Dice. Went. Everywhere. But. The. Table. Which was annoying, since there was a pretty hard "it must be on the table" rule in place. This kid took forever to roll anything and get'em to stay on the table.
Didn't he BREAK dice once?
Kid's probly got some anger issues. Lol. Or he's focusing way too hard on his rolling.
I get ticked off pretty fast at people who can't seem to grasp common sense, like not throwing your dice at the table.
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No No anger problems just... intense!
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Yeah, it was just intensity. Which I think made up for all the... not intense Ian was, considering the dice thing was the only thing I remember about the kid.
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Yeah, it was just intensity. Which I think made up for all the... not intense Ian was, considering the dice thing was the only thing I remember about the kid.
You forgot Unlucky? I mean getting Headcapped inthe first round of a Bloodname tourney bits big! :'(
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For those who have had the misfortune of having a dice-thrower at the table, my friend Charles has a solution to that problem: oversized solid metal dice. His rule: you throw yours, I throw MINE at you. In an unrelated note, dice throwing incidents at our game store have dropped greatly in the past year...
My only superstition is for others to touch my dice without my permission. I used to think this was juvenile until my friend Jack aka the Master of "One", the Hitless Wonder, and the Pidgeon Slayer (old inside joke because whenever he fired nine times out of ten he missed and we used to say his arrows/bolts hit some passing pidgeon) use my dice when I had to miss a session. Ever sence then, those dice havent rolled squat. Now, touching my dice is done under penalty of pepper spray or stun gun.
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Touching a gamer's dice is like touching a man's hat. YOU DO NOT DO IT.
and I didn't remember that about Ian. XD I remember killing YOU first and headcapping someone ELSE as my final shot at that tourney.
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Chaotic just picked up a set of 36 black d6 with red pips (Mmmmm black & red, my favorite color). I took all 36 in hand shook 'em up and got 10 6s and 6 1s, tossed the load again and hit 14 times with four 1s, I think I'm going to like these dice... till that first crit glitch! ;D
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Are they mini dice or do you have huge hands? :o I find I tend to luck up peoples dice temporarily when I happen to touch them i.e. pick them up from the floor or my lap. They always roll well for awhile afterwords.
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They are about 3/8"ish cube... Big hands too.
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They are about 3/8"ish cube
The part of my brain which calculates in metric units just commited suicide by division by zero...
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They are about 3/8"ish cube
The part of my brain which calculates in metric units just commited suicide by division by zero...
9.52500 millimeters
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Straing as it is I work with both systems Doc. Primarilly Metric for the last 11+, I still can't do that calculation in my head.
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I made an offhand comment on the way to a game about it being my luck that I'll roll nothing but one's...
Sadly, the dice gods made that true. The guys at my DnD game can attest to that too. 6 1's on a d20 in a row. With different dice.
For 5 hours of gaming, my d20 didn't roll more then 10 at any time except the one time I needed a LOW number... then it rolled 20.
I will never again taunt the dice gods.
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Sadly, the dice gods made that true. The guys at my DnD game can attest to that too. 6 1's on a d20 in a row. With different dice.
Thats definitly a case of playing the wrong system!
Damn, I wished Id get six 1s a row! (I.e., the equivalent to six 20s in a row in DnD)
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FoxBoy: You 'n me, we's similar cloth.
And it doesn't seem to matter what game is played...my dice-gods snicker at me, no matter what. D&D? Nearly half the games I play, I have a dominant stretch of die-rolling on a d20 that does not exceed 7. I play a campaign of KULT (older Swedish-translated game of horrible, horrible things) where the skill checks and combat rolls are inverse to the D&D system (1s are critical successes, and 20s are baaad news), and my dice nicely accomodate the adjustment.
Designing characters seems almost moot sometimes. I make someone who's a sneaktastic master (had a halfling rogue/ranger multiclass, played the campaign 'til we were about 18th level), and durned if I could make him seem competent at his best skills, with how I rolled. Actually, it seems a LOT that the things my character is SUPPOSED to be able to do- those are the things at which he fails, if called to roll for it.
There was a carryover from a D&D game when some of us were playing a later Star Wars Saga Ed. campaign, where I had posted "Take 10, Dumb@$s!" above my skills.
Now, this is not to say that this is ALWAYS the case. Very occasionally, I have a 'Vegas Baby!' night, where everything I roll is gold. My friends are all aware of this odd, odd tops(1/3)-bottoms(2/3) tendency, to the point that I cannot borrow dice from others...there seems to be a short-term contagion effect as well. An ex-GF has abandoned whole sets of dice because she forgot, and let me borrow a die for a check, or damage roll, and her follow-up dice results were catastrophic.
A D&D group made me a certificate once...I still have it in one of my game binders - "Most Extreme Dice"...appreciation is still appreciation, I guess. Heh.
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That's why I just roll my dice 6 times and write down numbers but don't bother writing the numbers I roll. Even with the "re-roll ones and twos" house rule there's still no way a character with an average stat of 12 is going to go well in an average 16 party. So I just make up a balanced set of stats, hand it to the DM, and usually he doesn't know any better. Or in Dad and Doom's case, just don't really care. Or take pity. I'm not sure which.
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Pity has nothing to do with it on my part. I have been a gamer for over half my 44 years, so I know a Heroic character from a God-Play Characters. Good stats are fine, but a character with above average stats on everything are boring! A good fighter to will have an above average str, dex, con (15-18) and have average everything else. I like heroic, heck, the character "flaw" of a character doesn't have to be statisical I have a Munchy Character that had a weakness of Lore. Yeah he could crush the crap out of most everything... Bards could however leave him sitting on the ground in the middle of combat with a good song or story! My brother used Bards well to so I had to worry about that!
Dice will turn fickle and even abandon those great characters OR actually make a gaming moment unforgettable.
Faceplant into cracked glass on a delapidated warehouse anyone!?! Price-less! ;D :-*
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You and I have different ideas of what "above average" are. For typical d20, like mentioned earlier, above average is the 12 to 14 range, anything higher is "exceptional."
Above average strength/stamina for a fighting type might be 14 to 16, but 17+ is still exceptional in my book. I've made plenty of d20 style characters with a run of 12 to 14 attributes all around, perhaps with one at 16 to emphasize that ability. The only time I use exceptional stats is to strongly emphasize that character's ability (typically, a wizard).
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True Gun but I feel that a hero should be a hero! Yes 12-14 is above average and acceptable for an older hero. In my prime I would have had between a 17-18 (without exceptionals {01-00}) strength, a definite 18 Constitution and maybe a 14 dex. Intel/Wisdom around an 7-9 (higher wisdom than intel by far) charisma... I don't know 6 maybe.
That is using the examples from the PHB. I'm the stats you gave now & my chances of survival are not what I'd consider good as an adventurer!
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I remember one time a gm who watched me roll my stats told me they were too high. Everything was between 14-17. He said he wanted the game kept realistic. I replied by saying we're playing DnD and one of my friends was playing an elf. He didn't get it...
Anyway I agree with Usda, heroes should be heroic. My barbarian should be able to cleave through hordes of monsters, not get beaten up by the local innkeeper. Granted he could be a retired adventurer, but you know what I mean. Which is something that makes me mad about online games, especially EQ back in the day, the npcs are so much higher level and tougher than you, yet they turn to you for help. Do it yourself! I'm busy trying not to get eaten by rats!
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A hero isn't stats (although those help out a lot). A hero is what one does with what is given. In every D&D prior to 4th Ed., you could spread your attributes around and your character wasn't gimped. On the contrary, it often helped your character survive much longer.
And the "average" for humans is the 10 to 11 range, so having 12 to 14 in every stat makes one well above average. That's pretty heroic. Having one attribute an 18 makes one (exceptionally) focused. Still heroic, but in a different way.
Having below average, or well below average, attributes in mental stats doesn't contribute to heroism, IMO. In fact, it slates the character for mookhood. And if the character's charisma (a typical dump stat) is very low (the 6 mentioned) then folks probably won't think of the guy as heroic. Probably just the sidekick, since he isn't personable enough to like. Or even that smart (7 intelligence). Or observant (9 wisdom). He's there as the meat shield for the REAL heroes. That paladin with the good charisma? Yeah, he's obviously the one who really saved the town.
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Depending on my game, I tend to give a bit more, especially if I have a feeling the campaign wont go for very long for whatever reason. That and while it can be very rewarding to build a character from scratch (my 13th Level Ranger/Fighter from Pathfinder a prime example, or my "main" SR character), sometimes you just want to get into the thick of things quickly or be able to take on a bit more a bit sooner.
If I want to "play" with Insect spirits, I would definately want a crew with some meat, other than watching my crew BECOME meat.
No one wants to read a comic about Rick Jones or Alfred Pennyworth, we want to know about the Avengers or Batman. So in that regards, as long as stats are rolled legally, then let the dice fall where they may.
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A hero isn't stats (although those help out a lot). A hero is what one does with what is given. In every D&D prior to 4th Ed., you could spread your attributes around and your character wasn't gimped. On the contrary, it often helped your character survive much longer.
Str-16
Int-10(ish)
Wis-12
Dex-13
Con-17
Cha-11
That's not a hero. Thats ME by (80s-90s standards) AD&D standards. Plain old ordinary 40 hour a week father of two. And yes on the inside I am a hero, A fighter, My bro would have been a mage. Book smart, body broken (Only had one lung due to a tumor when he was a young child). But we would have been NPCs to the legendary heroes that our characters were to become.
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A hero isn't stats (although those help out a lot). A hero is what one does with what is given. In every D&D prior to 4th Ed., you could spread your attributes around and your character wasn't gimped. On the contrary, it often helped your character survive much longer.
Str-16
Int-10(ish)
Wis-12
Dex-13
Con-17
Cha-11
That's not a hero. Thats ME by (80s-90s standards) AD&D standards. Plain old ordinary 40 hour a week father of two. And yes on the inside I am a hero, A fighter, My bro would have been a mage. Book smart, body broken (Only had one lung due to a tumor when he was a young child). But we would have been NPCs to the legendary heroes that our characters were to become.
Is your name Caramon? ;)
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Is your name Caramon? ;)
Caramon
Str 18/65
Wis-10
Con-17
Int-12
Dex-11
Cha-15
I have his character card in my wallet. I put it there during GenCon 09 so I could use it as a get out of dead card during the Hickman's Bavarian Killer Breakfast!
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Nice!
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Nice!
Hickman said the same thing... then he killed me!
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A hero isn't stats (although those help out a lot). A hero is what one does with what is given. In every D&D prior to 4th Ed., you could spread your attributes around and your character wasn't gimped. On the contrary, it often helped your character survive much longer.
Str-16
Int-10(ish)
Wis-12
Dex-13
Con-17
Cha-11
That's not a hero. Thats ME by (80s-90s standards) AD&D standards. Plain old ordinary 40 hour a week father of two. And yes on the inside I am a hero, A fighter, My bro would have been a mage. Book smart, body broken (Only had one lung due to a tumor when he was a young child). But we would have been NPCs to the legendary heroes that our characters were to become.
Is your name Caramon? ;)
I would have shot myself. I am a self-proclaimed Rabid Raistlin Fangirl.
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I would have shot myself. I am a self-proclaimed Rabid Raistlin Fangirl.
Nobody's perfect dear! :P
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yes, but I never much cared for Caramon. He wasn't much more than Raist's backstory to me. XD
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yes, but I never much cared for Caramon. He wasn't much more than Raist's backstory to me. XD
But who was the only person able to stop Raist from destroying reality?
Yup Caramon
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yes, but I never much cared for Caramon. He wasn't much more than Raist's backstory to me. XD
But who was the only person able to stop Raist from destroying reality?
Yup Caramon
I'll have you know that the great kender hero Tasslehoff Burrfoot had a equal claim to the glory of stopping Raistlin. I mean, without him, what would Dragonlance be?
...
Don't answer that.
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yes, but I never much cared for Caramon. He wasn't much more than Raist's backstory to me. XD
But who was the only person able to stop Raist from destroying reality?
Yup Caramon
He didn't destroy it, he made it better. I don't care what his attack of conscience told him.
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You call zero life at all better? :o
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He hit the reset button. And took matters into his own hands. I'm sure he'd figure out how to repopulate it EVENTUALLY.
Plus the live ones were sweet.
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for any dice supertition i suggest you go to www.nodwick.com and read the Full Frontal Nerdity comic , try to find the panel with the cursed dice who wont rolled nothing but 1 :)
you will laugh yourself sick
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I just have a dice bag, in which everything is dumped. No nonsense, no bad luck because you got the bad rolls in a row... None of that. I study psychology which has taught me at the very least that humans are ill equiped to see statistics and the relevant patterns. As such I leave it at the door. Who says education is bad? :D
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AJ I run SPC on a daily basis. Statistics are the death of superstition. I do however have a favorite set of dice. They are because they are Black & Red. my favorite colors! SO that is a small superstision if you wanna go there ;)
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AJ I run SPC on a daily basis. Statistics are the death of superstition. I do however have a favorite set of dice. They are because they are Black & Red. my favorite colors! SO that is a small superstision if you wanna go there ;)
I don't even have a favorite pair of dice... I get all the dice I can get as long as they are readable.
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Oh I have had many favorite sets in my gaming carreer. They all got lost over the years. The worst loss I had was my Clan Wolf d6 set and bear skin dice bag. My wife bought it from a Native American reservation Suveneer shop. Many jokes went around about a really mad bear somewhere missing his sack. IYKWIM
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AHHH the tribble dice bag. How I miss you so. I think my Smoke Jags and Steel Viper dice were in there too!
My favorite are my black and white. I have a mini set that's pearl and black, an oddly shaped set (there's a couple crystals and a d3 in there?) that are clear and black, and my bone/horn 2d6 I bought at gencon.
Then for shadowrun it's just my black and gold... though I'm thinking of looking for black and blue to use with Nathan.
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Nice choice for a healer! ::)
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It's to go with the whole Repo! thing! XD Nathan's outfit was all black with blue LEDs in his helmet!
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for any dice supertition i suggest you go to www.nodwick.com and read the Full Frontal Nerdity comic , try to find the panel with the cursed dice who wont rolled nothing but 1 :)
you will laugh yourself sick
Indeed I did. Thx for the hint to it! ;D
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Well there went my afternoon and evening :-\
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I haven't read the entire thread but here is mine...
In SR 3...I would roll...pull out the 6's and then roll different dice to get the total. My line of thinking was that those dice had rolled their 6's and could not be counted on to roll high a second time right after that.
I have black and white d6's with white skulls for the 1's...unathorized individuals are not really welcome touching my skull dice. I have plenty of dice to loan out...just not those.
I prefer d10's as a dice type...always bothered me that SR uses d6's.
I do not like d4's, mainly because somebody always drops one on the floor which I will step on the next day.
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See, now d10s always stood out to me as weird. Must be because of my Math degree. The whole, non-equiangular quadrangle shape of the die face just balks at me among the equiangular faces of the other dies. Now, that don't mean I don't like them, I do, mostly because what they represent to me as a gamer:
d4 - Magic Missiles
d6 - Fireball
d8 - HP
d10 - Magic Items/Treasure
d12 - BARBARIAN SMASH
d20 - Attack!
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d6 or d20. End of story. XD I've only really played Battletech (d6) and D&D/Pathfinder (d20). Having any other base is just weird to me.
And that is the nice thing about the crystal d4s. They're not caltrops.
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Playing ED was usually with all the dice in store. Now, when Thord Edition hit, d4's and d20's were excluded. And it works a lot, lot better.
And my favorite dice are d6's, because of the sheer re-rolling potential in ED and SW. And Edge-based SR rolls.
None superstitions here, though my dice luck seems a bit extreme sometimes. I once was to be taken in by a DnD group, but they decided they don't want me after i've rolled all 18's on 3d6 character creation... With three different dice sets. That was a once-in-a-lifetime roll, so imagine my dissapointment.
And my Earthdawn GM has too much luck with his dice, to be honest. We're jokingli refferin to him having weave an n-th level Thread in those.
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See, now d10s always stood out to me as weird. Must be because of my Math degree. The whole, non-equiangular quadrangle shape of the die face just balks at me among the equiangular faces of the other dies.
Eh. My Math degree leaves me perfectly comfortable with d10s and d30s. d5s and d7s must give you the willies.
Not really a superstition, but I have 3 rules of dice buying:
1. The die must be easy to find on your friend's stealth carpeting.
2. The die must be easy to read.
3. The die must look cool.
This is why I can't stand GameScience dice. Sure they're precision-made, but boy are they ugly and hard to read.
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My favorite dices... That's easy!
D6s - I started with Warhammer 40.000 and now to play SR
610s - I played alot of Dark Heresy, Warhammer Fantasy RP 3Ed
That last one is in my humble opinion one of the best High Fantasy systems out there; I love it!
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I've used a general rule that my characters have themed dice. Divine means sparkles, primal means I use my bone dice, and martial characters, I steal my boyfriend's blue and silver set that he never uses.
That was for D&D, at the very least. My first SR game I used a bunch of dice from random sets and even a few Spirit Cat dice from MW and some from a poker game I have lying around my house.
Even if it's just superstition to not use dice from one thing to another, I'm buying dice Friday. Haven't decided what color yet, but I know they'll be smaller than casino sized and brightly colored.
I love d20's. I have about five different ones that I use when I need to. My favorite one is from the bone set I own, I love using it for when I DM. I make my players cringe with the consistent 17's. ;D
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The only dice that bother me are d4s. And that's only because they're the only ones I can't get to spin like a top. It's weird, but it bothers me for some reason.
Though at the same time I like them because they make good weapons.
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The only dice that bother me are d4s. And that's only because they're the only ones I can't get to spin like a top. It's weird, but it bothers me for some reason.
Try harder, Monky-san. ;D
It takes great patience and practice, but a friend of mine was able to do it.
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Snip
My favorite one is from the bone set I own, I love using it for when I DM.
What isit with the "Bone" Dice sets and women? I mean all I see when I read this is seeing the ladies hunched over in a frilly dress dripping (victom's) blood and picking their teeth with a thigh bone!
What? :-\
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Try harder, Monky-san. ;D
It takes great patience and practice, but a friend of mine was able to do it.
I need a new table first. Our current gaming table is a lousy card table with one of those squishy, padded tops. We have to stick 2x4 plates to our Lego people's feet to keep them from falling over.
But when we acquire a new one, the practicing shall begin anew!
Or not. Depending on how lazy I am.
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SnipMy favorite one is from the bone set I own, I love using it for when I DM.
What isit with the "Bone" Dice sets and women? I mean all I see when I read this is seeing the ladies hunched over in a frilly dress dripping (victom's) blood and picking their teeth with a thigh bone!
What? :-\
Lol! No, they're ivory and black dice that I originally got while in a campaign playing a primal character in 4E. (A shifter shaman) The storyline was going really well, although it took us a year's worth of weekends to get from 5th to 30th. Her thing was bones.. and after the antagonist killed the entire party's children, she took the bones of her son and made her "end-game" implement from it. Creepy, but it fit.
See? Absolutely nothing to do thigh bones!
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Mine are deer bone and horn... Or at least I hope they are.
They don't roll for CRAP though.
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'guess the spirit of said deer is still around. And it's pissed at you ;D
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Most likely. The deer did not appreciate dying only to be turned into nerd gear and not something more satisfactory like food.
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Could have been worse. He could have been turned into one of those stupid dreamcatchers hippies like.
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I can't even comment on what hippies like.
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Afraid of a libel suit?
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Afraid they might find him and tell him what a bad bad person he is, night and day (well, until they run out of pot and have to move on).
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No, I just don't want to imagine what someone with absolutely no idea what constitutes reality finds likeable.
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I was going to Google some images for hippie crap, but screw it. I hate hippies too much to bother. I'm going to listen to Slayer instead.
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SLAYER!!
Heh, I had a friend in high school go grab his bat out of his car and try to hunt down the guy who told him "Slayer sucks!"
Ah, what crazy kids we were.
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I love Kerry King's reaction to the "Die Hippie, Die" episode of South Park: "It was good to see the song being put to good use. If we can horrify some hippies, we've done our job."
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I have to speak up for hippies as they seem to not be present. Hippies serve a needed role in life balancing the the scales of us (meaning me) Meat eating forest rending mobsters.
I was kinda a hippie in my younger days, but the Marines beat that out of me some 27 years ago.
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Thank you USMC! Really, I try to be tolerant, but with hippies... all bets are off.
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:P ;)
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Heh. Meat is murder. Murder is tasty and healthy. Be a mass murderer.*
* macdonalds and such do not use meat. Whatever that is, i won't touch it even with a 10-foot shock-stick.
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Heh, vegan is murder. Anything that is eaten today was a living thing yesterday.
I fully support killing as a means of survival.
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Hippies and hipsters, two of my greatest hates.
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Heh~ So I read this entire thread. For fifteen pages there's amazingly little on dice superstitions hehehehehe :D
I don't reallyhave any dice superstitions. If I'm feeling especially superstitious I'll look through my clear jar of dice and pick out the ones that "Look/Feel Lucky" hehehe. But usually I grab whatever is on top.
Back when I first started GMing I got a pound off dice from RPGShop.com. I don't really have much in the way of matching sets of dice hehehe. But I do have an awful lot of everything but D4's.
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Well, one friend has been known to stop on the bridge crossing the Susquehanna river on his way home from a game. They sleeps with the fishes now. He's also been know to bring a hammer with him to games to make public demonstrations of problem dice.
FastJack, you can't forget that he also threatens the dice to not roll poorly, punishes them by keeping them in the freezer for a week before finally throwing them off the bridge into the river if the roll bad again. And people call me crazy.
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I have been able to prove my horrible dice-karma time and time again with one of my Shadowrun-groups. We all share the same great bag of D6:s, shuffling them round the table all the time, and I´m still the one getting all the glitches... But for some reason I roll better when GM:ing. Stupid dice.
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Same thing happens to me. I roll much better for the GM characters than my own. My gf on the other hand, rolls like crap all the time, but gets these occasional short-lived bouts of insanely good luck where she rolls all 6s all the time. Go figure.
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At my table, I guess there is one superstition: if one former player, lets call him Jake, ever touches or borrows dice; forever cold they will go. So far, it's held up. He borrowed a D20 of mine without me knowing it. It was a reliable, if not spectacular roller, about 60-70% good rolls. He got a hold of it, and I was lucky to get over a 14. Nice of the rest of the group to let me know he used it BEFORE I had to tangle with the Ogre patrol....For the sake of my dice, I'm glad he's gone, but as a player and friend, I do miss him.
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I recently got two sets of the Pegasus Shadowrun Dice for Christmas. ;D
The colors are cool and match the whole 20th anniversary color scheme.
http://www.amazon.com/134100-Pegasus-Shadowrun-Dice-Tin/dp/B002I61PJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1294249279&sr=8-1-spell (http://www.amazon.com/134100-Pegasus-Shadowrun-Dice-Tin/dp/B002I61PJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1294249279&sr=8-1-spell)
TBH I haven't noticed a lack in high rolls or anything like that, despite what people say about symbols on die faces. In fact I almost TPK'd my group last week cause a string of ridiculous rolls where I inevitably had to enact "damage control".
It's much easier to tell hits and glitches apart now, which is especially helpful when you're GM'ing. Helps keep things moving along.
edit: And on the hippy note. Pot and SR actually make a great combination. As a GM it definitely gets my "what if" juices going. Plus a gaming circle makes a great smoking circle. ;D ...wouldn't call myself a hippy though, the hippies failed a long time ago when they accepted LSD from the government, but that's another thread. :P
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Mmmm... yes, I picked those up for myself as an early Xmas present. I plan on keeping them out for anyone to use during the SR campaign I'm planning since there will be a lot of new/returning players.
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As I'm sure I mentioned earlier, I don't use rounded dice for d6 based games; unless I need to roll low.
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Funny. I have the opposite effect with rounded d6! :)
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My PCs don't let me touch their dice.
I did it only once and the next five rolls came up all ones on their DPs
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I don't know if I'd call it a superstition or not, but almost all of my dice now are transparent and precision-edged (mostly from GameScience). I bought way too many opaque dice with air bubbles that allowed them to roll in something-less-than-random ways. Never in a good way, either! Sometimes it was terribly obvious, too, as the die would break like a curveball when rolled. Just terrible luck there. I'm not quite as bad on this with 4-siders and 6-siders, but I still prefer precision-edge dice for either.
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Hippies and hipsters, two of my greatest hates.
Hippies are okay when they bathe. LOL
Dice cause me a great deal of *PAIN* so I stopped caring. Now if I see some that just look cool I'll buy them and mix them with the rest of my dice.
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OK this isn't so much mine but part of my gaming groups. I have a set of d6's which i use mostly for warhammer and 40k, some how they have become cursed dice to anyone who touches them but me. There is an ongoing attempt to sneak one of them into someone elses pile of dice before they to roll
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My dice must be selected from my bag in a specific color-coordinated array. 3 white, 3 semi white, 3 red, 1 black (die of death), and I have the SR4 dice that came in a tin container. I find that it is useful to keep track of which dice I'm using for my Combat Pools/Edge Pool and my Active Skills + Attributes.
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One of my player got one dice for Heavy Decisions, a big chunk o' metal (D6)
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One of my player got one dice for Heavy Decisions, a big chunk o' metal (D6)
Hope you don't play on a glass table :P
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My superstitions:
Dice must be kept in a crown royal bag..they don't like any other kind.
Do not just take my dice...if you need dice, ask me, and I will pick the dice
for you.
"If the Liao Dice are brought out....it means I am serious. If the old mechwarrior dice are brought
out....I am trying to KILL YOUR PC!"
The green and gold dice? They are my friends, not yours!
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One of my player got one dice for Heavy Decisions, a big chunk o' metal (D6)
Buddy of mine has six of them. Not really used to roll, more as intmidation.
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Touch my dice without permission and I will f***in' end you!
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Hippies are okay when if they bathe. LOL
Fixed that for you.
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My dice have to be rolled until they come up as a 1, then aligned perfectly. My thinking is that if they're stuck on 1 for a long time, they'll not want to roll that later. Seems to work.
Gods we're all insane. ;) Shrinks would have a field day with us.
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Funny, they won't touch me. I have to go to Traditional Medicine for that kind of help.