Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: EtherealGyre on <10-18-13/1829:44>
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mmmm.. I continue to love these...
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Me too.
Especially when a player rolls a critical glitch and has no edge left to re-roll.
<evil, manic laughter>
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Reaver is a good example of why I never use Edge for anything except rerolling to avoid critical glitches.
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Reaver is a good example of why I never use Edge for anything except rerolling to avoid critical glitches.
Smart players ALWAYS keep a couple of edge is reserve just for those "OH CRAP!!!" moments.
But then again.... some players are SMRT smart.
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Smart players ALWAYS keep a couple of edge is reserve just for those "OH CRAP!!!" moments.
Of course, my luck means that I have to use an edge point on this, then my character promptly goes and fails to avoid being knocked off the speeding train... which I could have used that point of edge on -_-
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Smart players ALWAYS keep a couple of edge is reserve just for those "OH CRAP!!!" moments.
Of course, my luck means that I have to use an edge point on this, then my character promptly goes and fails to avoid being knocked off the speeding train... which I could have used that point of edge on -_-
yep, those monowhips will cut anything very nicely.... and that includes you!!!
hence why I love them so much!
<More Evil laughter!!!>
Course, I DID have this fantastic villain....tonnes of delta grade cyber and bio... moving like lighting, armored up the whazzo with Military grade gear, and a focus in monowhips. She was going to rip my players a new to show them that they can NOT rip off the Yakuza and get away with it....
She snuck up on 2 of the characters while they where on overwatch.... pulled out her monowhip...
Critical glitch. (CRAP!!!!!!!!!)
So, I used Edge to try to get her out of the hole...
Criticial Glitch AGAIN!!!! (double CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!)
And so I bite the bullet and role damage resistance.
Glitch. (OMGWTF CRAP!!!!!!!!)
7 boxes of damage.
Both players turn....
BLAM!! BLAM!! BLAM! BLAM!!!
****
They made almost 800k selling off her body to a chop shop.
Last time I EVER give an NPC a monowhip. :'(
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I read you can have this as a cyber finger compartment, but don't see it in the book. Can you do that in SR5?
Edit: Ugh, I apologize for even asking the question. I have no idea how I missed the paragraph at the top of the next page. I've even read it before.
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I read you can have this as a cyber finger compartment, but don't see it in the book. Can you do that in SR5?
Edit: Ugh, I apologize for even asking the question. I have no idea how I missed the paragraph at the top of the next page. I've even read it before.
;D
happens all the time dude, don't worry about it :P
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Biggest dick thing you can ever do? String a piece of it across an alley while your buddy is being chased by go-gangers. He knows to duck, they don't.
Plop.
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Biggest dick thing you can ever do? String a piece of it across an alley while your buddy is being chased by go-gangers. He knows to duck, they don't.
Plop.
why is monowire dangerous....
Cause sick lil f**kers like my players string it across Go-gang territory then sit back with popcorn. :'(
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And that is why gecko grip is one of my favourite weapon mods.
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And that is why gecko grip is one of my favourite weapon mods.
often wondered:
How DO you apply a tacky substance to a sting a few molicules thick??? I am the gecko grip stuff is THICKER then the line! would the line just neatly slice through it?
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The swinging end of a mono-filament whip is weighted, so holding the handle turns it into a wire cheese slicer. If either end isn't properly weighted, you might as well be waving paper streamers around.
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The swinging end of a mono-filament whip is weighted, so holding the handle turns it into a wire cheese slicer. If either end isn't properly weighted, you might as well be waving paper streamers around.
sorry, I meant on a monowire :P
yea on a whip it would totally work :D
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Biggest dick thing you can ever do? String a piece of it across an alley while your buddy is being chased by go-gangers. He knows to duck, they don't.
Plop.
why is monowire dangerous....
Cause sick lil f**kers like my players string it across Go-gang territory then sit back with popcorn. :'(
I will ruin someone with this, i love the internet for giving me the best ideas, the only problem is... How much real popcorns cost? on the sprawl
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sorry, I meant on a monowire :P
They're not exactly going to sell monowire in unattached lengths, are they? How would you pick it up?
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They do, actually. It is used as a security feature in many places. And you need special gloves to pick it up without slicing your hands.
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they actually sell it buy the roll!
like you would fishing line or chicken wire.....
and yes you need specially designed gloves to manipulate it.
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They do, actually. It is used as a security feature in many places. And you need special gloves to pick it up without slicing your hands.
What I should have said is that it's going to come spooled or in some other neat, contained measure. You aren't going to buy it direct from the seller in tangled heaps or in free floating random lengths. That would be stupid.
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Of course. But you can buy it in coils of a certain length, and then cut it as needed to stretch across an alleyway, for instance. Personally, I prefer to put it at mid-shin height. Slices the legs so they can't run, and leaves them alive, so you can question them later if you need to.
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Of course. But you can buy it in coils of a certain length, and then cut it as needed to stretch across an alleyway, for instance. Personally, I prefer to put it at mid-shin height. Slices the legs so they can't run, and leaves them alive, so you can question them later if you need to.
PLEASE!!!
that is no where near as entertaining as "Go-gang head basketball".... where you see if you can get the detached head to bounce into a pothole after the go-ganger runs into the mono wire stretched across the highway at 80KpH... ;D
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Yes, but I prefer more practical methods. You can't get as much information out of a corpse. And if someone's chasing me, I'd like them to be alive long enough for me to very slowly and carefully get all the information I can out of them.
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Yes, but I prefer more practical methods. You can't get as much information out of a corpse. And if someone's chasing me, I'd like them to be alive long enough for me to very slowly and carefully get all the information I can out of them.
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fine.
but, I am changing your name to "No fun Mirikon" :P
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Now i wish a Monofilament Net to trow at my enemies all Gladiator Like
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Yes, but I prefer more practical methods. You can't get as much information out of a corpse. And if someone's chasing me, I'd like them to be alive long enough for me to very slowly and carefully get all the information I can out of them.
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fine.
but, I am changing your name to "No fun Mirikon" :P
No, no, no. You clearly don't know how much fun a proper interrogation session can be. Adding in some psychological torture while you're at it can really improve results. Plus, the 'cleaners' prefer to take the 'pigs' while they're still warm. Still Shedim about, afterall.
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Yes, but I prefer more practical methods. You can't get as much information out of a corpse. And if someone's chasing me, I'd like them to be alive long enough for me to very slowly and carefully get all the information I can out of them.
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fine.
but, I am changing your name to "No fun Mirikon" :P
No, no, no. You clearly don't know how much fun a proper interrogation session can be. Adding in some psychological torture while you're at it can really improve results. Plus, the 'cleaners' prefer to take the 'pigs' while they're still warm. Still Shedim about, afterall.
"Hi, I will be conducing your interrogation today. Today we will be using a blow torch, a rat, a metal pail, and a bag prunes. Do you wish to tell me anything before we get started?"
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See, now you're getting it!
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Biggest dick thing you can ever do? String a piece of it across an alley while your buddy is being chased by go-gangers. He knows to duck, they don't.
Plop.
Even worse, string it at KNEE HEIGHT for, say, your average Ork.
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Biggest dick thing you can ever do? String a piece of it across an alley while your buddy is being chased by go-gangers. He knows to duck, they don't.
Plop.
Even worse, string it at KNEE HEIGHT for, say, your average Ork.
You guys are just plain evil
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Biggest dick thing you can ever do? String a piece of it across an alley while your buddy is being chased by go-gangers. He knows to duck, they don't.
Plop.
Even worse, string it at KNEE HEIGHT for, say, your average Ork.
You guys are just plain evil
Comes from boring bus, plane, and car rides.... I use that time to come up with shocking imagery to stop my players from sleeping at night...
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My players have a saying "If Zach is GM'ing, that package is a bomb. Every time."
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Biggest dick thing you can ever do? String a piece of it across an alley while your buddy is being chased by go-gangers. He knows to duck, they don't.
Plop.
Even worse, string it at KNEE HEIGHT for, say, your average Ork.
You guys are just plain evil
I work third shift at a gas station. I have plenty of time to think.
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You guys are just plain evil
I've been GMing a lot.
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You guys are just plain evil
I've been GMing a lot.
wait. what?!?
YOU FOUND A GAME!?!?!?!
fun for your lives folks!!! the sky is falling!! the sky is falling!!!
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I've got a new player who has asked me to make a weapons specialist built around mono whips. We'll see how this goes.
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I've got a new player who has asked me to make a weapons specialist built around mono whips. We'll see how this goes.
possibly the best and worst idea. ever. (read above for why :P)
just give him a gentle warning to avoid his whip if he has spent all his edge. Just saying.
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Well, hopefully with 13 dice or so, Critical glitches will be few and far between. But yeah, it is a sort of dedicated edge holding type weapon.
We investigating the adept One is an adept that uses it, then a cyberware based whip wieldier. May as well go for the gusto with one on each hand in a fingertip compartment.
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13 dice? As an adept? Get up to 20, you'll feel much safer!
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wait. what?!?
YOU FOUND A GAME!?!?!?!
fun for your lives folks!!! the sky is falling!! the sky is falling!!!
I almost always have at least one game going.
Just never as a PLAYER, only as a GM. Ever. JimCon (http://jimcon.ca/2013/) is soon, however, and hopefully the gaming I do there will be more than the SR5 demos that I'll be doing there.
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13 dice? As an adept? Get up to 20, you'll feel much safer!
Well, 20 is a bit much for a starting character in our game, he'll just have to..live on the edge?
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13 dice? As an adept? Get up to 20, you'll feel much safer!
Well, 20 is a bit much for a starting character in our game, he'll just have to..live on the edge?
you can say that again.... death or maiming are only mono edge away :P
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Next thought: the fingertip compartment is so cliché. Ohinking of other ways to hide a monofilament whip. (I meant disguising the normal handheld version; other cyber implant locations, while amusing, seem a bit...unwieldy, even if they may have a shock factor.)
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Next thought: the fingertip compartment is so cliché. Ohinking of other ways to hide a monofilament whip. (I meant disguising the normal handheld version; other cyber implant locations, while amusing, seem a bit...unwieldy, even if they may have a shock factor.)
"Where did he get that whip from? I was sure we disarmed him!"
"I PIOOMA! Literally!"
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helicopter dance.... with a monowhip attachment?
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Sometime I wish there was a like button. Some of These posts are amazing.
Someone needs to make a monofilament double Dutch team.
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there was a like/smite function about a year ago, but it got abused too badly.
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Sometime I wish there was a like button. Some of These posts are amazing.
There was, but the butthurt rose to critical levels, so they removed it.
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Put a glowstick on the weight end of a mono-whip.
Most lethal rave ever! ;D
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Hmm heres a silly Shadowrun tall tale to possible use to street characters. The legend of the deadly carwash.
"There was this rigger, tough guy. His enemies couldn't get him. His tech was bleeding edge, skills were unsurpassed, he was just the man.
Then, one day, he got the ARO for a free car wash at his favorite and trusted place. He went by, first in for the day. Sadly, some of his enemies had got there first. The little 'brushless' foam spinner had been laced with monowires. Just a soggy pile of blood oozing debris came out. True Story!"
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Next thought: the fingertip compartment is so cliché. Ohinking of other ways to hide a monofilament whip. (I meant disguising the normal handheld version; other cyber implant locations, while amusing, seem a bit...unwieldy, even if they may have a shock factor.)
My current favored idea is to put it in the bottom of the handle on a collapsible baton. Cut them to ribbons, then flip the weapon over when KE comes up to find you holding a legal weapon with no blood on it... "I chased off the scary murderhobo with my stick!!!"
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Another option: The Dorothy System!
(http://static.schlockmercenary.com/comics/schlock20041024c.jpg?1297712541)
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Another option: The Dorothy System!
(http://static.schlockmercenary.com/comics/schlock20041024c.jpg?1297712541)
that looks kind of like you'd need to make checks to move with it on
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The swinging end of a mono-filament whip is weighted, so holding the handle turns it into a wire cheese slicer. If either end isn't properly weighted, you might as well be waving paper streamers around.
I seriously had a massive giggle-fit at the idea of my badass ex-ganger twirling around paper streamers to fight with.
On a related note... She has Skillwires and crap strength. A mono-whip would be a good way to use melee attacks... But when it says "tests made with a skillsoft cannot be boosted in any way with Edge" does that mean Exotic Melee Weapon (Monofilament Whip) would be the worst kind of activesoft? Or do you think I could still negate glitches with it since it's not adding to the dice pool or rerolling?
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That depends on how permissive your GM is, firebug. By a strict reading of the rules, then no, you couldn't use Edge in any way with a skill boosted by a skillsoft, including rerolling your failures. There was actually an extra piece of cyberware in 4E that made an exception and allowed you to use edge to reroll failures, IIRC. Best put that as an actual skill.
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Another option: The Dorothy System!
(http://static.schlockmercenary.com/comics/schlock20041024c.jpg?1297712541)
that looks kind of like you'd need to make checks to move with it on
Only when you click your heels together. ;D
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Another option: The Dorothy System!
(http://static.schlockmercenary.com/comics/schlock20041024c.jpg?1297712541)
that looks kind of like you'd need to make checks to move with it on
Only when you click your heels together. ;D
As in, you'd trip. And you'd need to make a attack roll to hit with it and either way you're prone. Not practical.
One idea I had was the monofilament cat o' nine tails.
also known as the "Cheese Grater".
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One idea I had was the monofilament cat o' nine tails.
also known as the "Cheese Grater".
I'd love to see what's left of a runner after they critical glitch with one of those...
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One idea I had was the monofilament cat o' nine tails.
also known as the "Cheese Grater".
I'd love to see what's left of a runner after they critical glitch with one of those...
Actually, they should be fine as long as the strands are shorter than the handle.
Now, their TEAMMATES....
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One idea I had was the monofilament cat o' nine tails.
also known as the "Cheese Grater".
I'd love to see what's left of a runner after they critical glitch with one of those...
Actually, they should be fine as long as the strands are shorter than the handle.
Now, their TEAMMATES....
...... if the strands are shorter then the handle, on a crit glitch you run the risk of chopping off your own hand or fingers wouldn't you? Or destroying your weapon as the strands slice through the extra handle....
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Strands shorter than the handle? Is this like a polearm? Some kinda wire-rake of death? Or is it like a normal-ish handle that's maybe 10 inches long, meaning the whips are only like five or so inches and you're prettymuch just stabbing a guy with a deadly feather duster?
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Strands shorter than the handle? Is this like a polearm? Some kinda wire-rake of death? Or is it like a normal-ish handle that's maybe 10 inches long, meaning the whips are only like five or so inches and you're prettymuch just stabbing a guy with a deadly feather duster?
Like a polearm, I guess. Give the pole itself a reach worth 2 and the strands a reach of 1.
Of course it would lose a little efficiency every time you used it (strands cutting each other)...
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Strands shorter than the handle? Is this like a polearm? Some kinda wire-rake of death? Or is it like a normal-ish handle that's maybe 10 inches long, meaning the whips are only like five or so inches and you're prettymuch just stabbing a guy with a deadly feather duster?
Are we still talking about monowhips, or have we gotten into the Feather Duster that Ishida Mitsunari uses in Sengoku Basara as his joke weapon?
More directly to the topic, monowire weapons are an amusing but niche weapon because they require such extensive investment in order to not be regularly cutting off your own arms. Not all that much in tune with cyberpunk, too, but with as wireless as the Matrix has gotten starting with 4E I guess that's not much an issue.
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I remember Mono whips as far back as 2e (not sure if they were in 1e... can't remember)
They have always been incredibly dangerous weapons (both for operator and target!).
and it is that investment in skill VS the supreme damage they can dish out that makes them a possibly viable weapon.. if you accept the risks.
remember, no matter your strength, they are an 12p -8 AP attack! you need a strength of 11 to match that output with a combat axe! Meaning, now the human with a 2 STR is just as deadly as that troll with 10STR and an combat axe (only 10, not 11 due to the trolls +1 reach)
So that troll has spent 5 attribute points + Armed Combat skill points +$4000 to be as "effective" * While that human spent 1 attribute point + exotic weapon skill points +$10,000. And the Human still have the accuracy advantage!
*Couse that troll doesn't need to worry about cutting off his own hand, arm or head! .... unless his GM is a total dick on Critical glitches :P
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Strands shorter than the handle? Is this like a polearm? Some kinda wire-rake of death? Or is it like a normal-ish handle that's maybe 10 inches long, meaning the whips are only like five or so inches and you're prettymuch just stabbing a guy with a deadly feather duster?
Like a polearm, I guess. Give the pole itself a reach worth 2 and the strands a reach of 1.
Of course it would lose a little efficiency every time you used it (strands cutting each other)...
I'm fairly certain monowire can't cut other monowires. Same with the handle, make it out of ceramic, or even line it with ceramic and the wire won't even scratch it.
Remember, monowire is thin and sharp, but there are things it can't cut, otherwise it would be almost useless.
That said, a cat-o-nine (or any multi-strand lash) made from monowire would be almost unusable. Remember, all the weight on a monofilament whip is at the tip of the strand. Multiple strands from the same handle would rapidly twist and snarl around each other as the weights spin and bounce off each other. Within 2-3 swings you would just have a tangled mess of wire too thin to un-knot safely, but too thick and irregular to actually cut anything.
If you don't weight the ends, it won't tangle as quickly, but it wouldn't be able to cut either. At worst it would cause superficial scratches and surface cuts on anything soft. It could make a good torture implement/extreme-S&M toy, but not much else.
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Strands shorter than the handle? Is this like a polearm? Some kinda wire-rake of death? Or is it like a normal-ish handle that's maybe 10 inches long, meaning the whips are only like five or so inches and you're prettymuch just stabbing a guy with a deadly feather duster?
Like a polearm, I guess. Give the pole itself a reach worth 2 and the strands a reach of 1.
Of course it would lose a little efficiency every time you used it (strands cutting each other)...
I'm fairly certain monowire can't cut other monowires. Same with the handle, make it out of ceramic, or even line it with ceramic and the wire won't even scratch it.
Remember, monowire is thin and sharp, but there are things it can't cut, otherwise it would be almost useless.
That said, a cat-o-nine (or any multi-strand lash) made from monowire would be almost unusable. Remember, all the weight on a monofilament whip is at the tip of the strand. Multiple strands from the same handle would rapidly twist and snarl around each other as the weights spin and bounce off each other. Within 2-3 swings you would just have a tangled mess of wire too thin to un-knot safely, but too thick and irregular to actually cut anything.
If you don't weight the ends, it won't tangle as quickly, but it wouldn't be able to cut either. At worst it would cause superficial scratches and surface cuts on anything soft. It could make a good torture implement/extreme-S&M toy, but not much else.
Alright so you only get to use the Cheese Grater a few times. And?
If you did the pole thing with 1 strand it'd be risk-free!
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While a 10' pole with a 5' whip on the end would be mostly risk free, if someone got closer than 5' away from you you would basically be unable to attack them with the dangerous part, and be reduced to hitting them with an unwieldy staff that you can't choke-up on without risking cutting yourself. This is true if it has 10 strands or 1.
In addition you would be carrying around a 10 foot pole everywhere which would make it hard to go through doors or ride in cars, or even the subway.
Both realism and game balance would require it to have severe penalties to use against adjacent enemies or in hallways and other enclosed spaces. A 15' weapon is cool when you are in an open square surrounded by mooks, but it's less helpful against a melee specialist in a standard 8'-wide hallway with a 10' ceiling.
And don't think the whip could cut through the ceiling tiles or wallboard, remember there is a weight on the end. Only things completely between the weight and the handle can be effectively cut. If the weight hits and bounces off, the wire goes slack and potentially tangles. It can't cut if it's not under tension.
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While a 10' pole with a 5' whip on the end would be mostly risk free, if someone got closer than 5' away from you you would basically be unable to attack them with the dangerous part, and be reduced to hitting them with an unwieldy staff that you can't choke-up on without risking cutting yourself. This is true if it has 10 strands or 1.
In addition you would be carrying around a 10 foot pole everywhere which would make it hard to go through doors or ride in cars, or even the subway.
Both realism and game balance would require it to have severe penalties to use against adjacent enemies or in hallways and other enclosed spaces. A 15' weapon is cool when you are in an open square surrounded by mooks, but it's less helpful against a melee specialist in a standard 8'-wide hallway with a 10' ceiling.
And don't think the whip could cut through the ceiling tiles or wallboard, remember there is a weight on the end. Only things completely between the weight and the handle can be effectively cut. If the weight hits and bounces off, the wire goes slack and potentially tangles. It can't cut if it's not under tension.
if you could even use it :P
try an experiment....
grab a broom by the very end of the handle in one hand and try to lift the head off the floor. It's way more difficult then it sounds and you'll feel it in your fore arm!
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It could be a very light pole-- the weight doesn't matter.
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we do that trick with conduit :P
20 foot length weights about 18 ounces. Can't really get much lighter then that and have structure :P
it's just a point of physics that came about from "griping on the end"... as this trick doesn't use a combat style grip :P And a combat style grip would place your hands in the bottom 18-24 inches of the weapon for a (bottom) style grip (so you could swing like a bat, opposed to like a staff)
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You guys just made me think of two things: I had a guy playing a rigger once who thought about pop-out monofilament whips on the tips of the rotors on a root-drone. He could swoop down into crowds and baddies, engage and turn them all into soup.
And secondly something I just thought of: monofilament fly swatter!
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You guys just made me think of two things: I had a guy playing a rigger once who thought about pop-out monofilament whips on the tips of the rotors on a root-drone. He could swoop down into crowds and baddies, engage and turn them all into soup.
And secondly something I just thought of: monofilament fly swatter!
That would be fun until he rolled a critical glitch and the weighted end of one of the whips caught on something, causing the drone to crash rather spectacularly. Then it would become awesome.
Fly swatter like a tennis racket? Or like an actual flyswatter with some sort of woven monofilament head?
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You guys just made me think of two things: I had a guy playing a rigger once who thought about pop-out monofilament whips on the tips of the rotors on a root-drone. He could swoop down into crowds and baddies, engage and turn them all into soup.
And secondly something I just thought of: monofilament fly swatter!
That would be fun until he rolled a critical glitch and the weighted end of one of the whips caught on something, causing the drone to crash rather spectacularly. Then it would become awesome.
Fly swatter like a tennis racket? Or like an actual flyswatter with some sort of woven monofilament head?
Hrm, maybe a safety release on the wirelines so it pops out when subject to a certain tug threshold? Maybe each wire would only be good for one hit but it's still a net gain over potentially totalling the drone in urban environments.
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Tell me what you make of this little recipe:
One tiny spool with 2 metres of monowire, one handgrenade with the tripmine option (set to veeery sensitive and maybe 10 second delay) and two pieces of gecko tape
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Tell me what you make of this little recipe:
One tiny spool with 2 metres of monowire, one handgrenade with the tripmine option (set to veeery sensitive and maybe 10 second delay) and two pieces of gecko tape
You'd need containment brackets on both ends of the monowire (similar in construction what a monowire garrote which is 2/3rds the cost of a monowhip) so the line doesn't slice through the tape and go limp. If you need containment brackets then that'll bulk out the ends of the wire so you'd have to be a bit more clever in concealing the end not attached to the grenade more so than usual.
Also, I'm concerned about high-sensitivity tripwire since that has a much higher chance of false-positive triggering in ad-hoc scenarios even if it is monowire. Also, it's better that the grenade just goes off immedately to get the payout you're going for than for 3 combat turns to go by while the rest of the goons see and get a running start at vaulting over their ankle-less friend before he and a few stragglers get caught in the blast. If you're going for deterrence then the up-front explosion is more than scary enough to warrant pause while the smoke clears pro or not-pro (each for their own reasons). To be honest, the use of mono-tripwire with a grenade is overkill going into cruelty rather than additional effectiveness. You'd be better off bundling multiple grenades to go off simultaneously to guarantee casualties. The use of non-lethal tripwire also lends itself better to disabling opposition with flashbangs rather than outright killing and other collateral damage (makes for lesser chances of revenge from corps and organized/unorganized criminals).
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When I am getting chased by some Tamanous muscle through the worse parts of the Barrens I most certainly do not care about killing them or causing collateral damage.
Sure the monofilament setup is not nesessary and yes it is cruel, but hell so are most things that start with "I am going to use monowire!".
Another thought, is monowire really that hard to handle? The rules state that it can be strung using special gloves without giving a pricing for said gloves. Plus monowire gets mounted on fences and although very sharp there should be materials that can handle it (special ceramics maybe?).
That whole monowire sharpness deal seems to be highly debateable too. In some books its like somekind technomagic wunderwaffe that cuts right through to the earths core if you drop it, in others its like the japanese kitchen knife of piano wires.
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When I am getting chased by some Tamanous muscle through the worse parts of the Barrens I most certainly do not care about killing them or causing collateral damage.
Sure the monofilament setup is not nesessary and yes it is cruel, but hell so are most things that start with "I am going to use monowire!".
Another thought, is monowire really that hard to handle? The rules state that it can be strung using special gloves without giving a pricing for said gloves. Plus monowire gets mounted on fences and although very sharp there should be materials that can handle it (special ceramics maybe?).
That whole monowire sharpness deal seems to be highly debateable too. In some books its like somekind technomagic wunderwaffe that cuts right through to the earths core if you drop it, in others its like the japanese kitchen knife of piano wires.
That's MICROWIRE. Monowire will slice apart rappelling gloves. I'd actually recommend that over standard monowire for tripwire as it costs far less per meter, is nearly as unoticeable, easier to handle, and catches better so sensitivity doesn't need to be so high on the wire. With microwire you can probably get away with pre-tying the microwire to a hard tab wrapped with rappelling glove fiber and using some spray adhesive to stick the tab to just about anything. Better yet, get the adhesive pre-applied on the tab (and maybe the grenade as well) too with one of those "peel-and-stick" adhesive surfaces. That way you can prep a grenade ahead of time for use as a trap to cut down on the extended demolitions skill test to convert the grenade into one (just need to extend the wire out and arm it without setting it off yourself).
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MICROWIRE!!!
You sir are amazing! Thats the stuff that allows you to carry hundrets of metres of rope in a smal package right?
Hm that gets me thinking... if you string that stuff along some sturdy posts at knee level... that should hurt a bit too right? It is pretty strong for its diametre isnt it? (Off the top of my head I think it could hold 100kg or somethin like that?)
Edit: How DO you handle Monowire? Was it explained somewhere, maybe one of the books focusing on security measures?
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How DO you handle Monowire? Was it explained somewhere, maybe one of the books focusing on security measures?
I'm thinking the handling of monowire is done through surfaces of superhard materials like carbon nanotubes (harder the better that you can shape appropriately) arranged in a threaded groove canal (like an inverted screw) to arrange the wires in a single line. I do not think containers for monowire have more than a single stack since you'd need a larger superhard material layer each time you go for another stack as well as additional hardening to resist the increased pull to move a larger section of wire. Most containment/distribution units also probably include secondary containment techniques like being immersed in an industrial chemical compound that forms a weak chemical bond to the monowire so as to form a buffer against what the monowire comes in contact with until one runs an electric charge through the wire that breaks down the bond and the compound decomposes, returning the wire to its original state. The charge can either be administered after installation or attached to the containment unit to undo the bonding agent as it is withdrawn from it.
This is all just speculation though.
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MICROWIRE!!!
You sir are amazing! Thats the stuff that allows you to carry hundrets of metres of rope in a smal package right?
Hm that gets me thinking... if you string that stuff along some sturdy posts at knee level... that should hurt a bit too right? It is pretty strong for its diametre isnt it? (Off the top of my head I think it could hold 100kg or somethin like that?)
Edit: How DO you handle Monowire? Was it explained somewhere, maybe one of the books focusing on security measures?
Microwire will cut through your hands if there is tension on it, but not quite like monowire.
Same thing if it is strung as a trip wire. Run into it hard enough and it might cut through the skin and hurt, but won't cause serious wounds. It'll stop cutting when it reaches bone and then the victim will trip over it.
Monowire would cut if they just walked into it, and would likely go right through flesh and bone if they hit it at any speed, and they wouldn't fall down until their legs came apart under them. It is much more expensive, not nearly as strong, and not nearly as useful though, because it is so much more dangerous to the user and if someone with enough armor walks into it it will just snap, where Microwire could still trip them.
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For that matter... how the hell do you spool monowire back into the fingertip compartment, considering the wire would just slice through most spools?
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Uhm... good question!
There seem to be a few things that should be answered officialy about monowire ;D
Is it still wickedly expensive? That would help handwaving stuff like that to "You know they do it by highly advanced, super expensive materials, so it works!", just like you say "How do they do it? Magic!"
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My answer: spiders. Tiny, mechanical spiders. Obviously...
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aka nanites :D
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Except that nanites are no longer reliable.
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makes you think doesn't it ;D
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Teeny tiny little spider bots that creepy crawl everywhere and spin monofilament wires... thanks for giving me something for my next nightmare :o
P.S.: Love that idea!!!
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Uhm... good question!
There seem to be a few things that should be answered officialy about monowire ;D
Is it still wickedly expensive? That would help handwaving stuff like that to "You know they do it by highly advanced, super expensive materials, so it works!", just like you say "How do they do it? Magic!"
2/3rds of the cost of a monowhip are to do with the 2 meters of monowire (if one is to go by 4E Arsenal).
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So that leaves about 3K Nuyen for the handle plus spool and the counterweight... seems like thats some high tech stuff aswell then.
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For that matter... how the hell do you spool monowire back into the fingertip compartment, considering the wire would just slice through most spools?
Monowire will not cut certain ceramics. The handle and spool are both made of high-density ceramic compounds. Most likely the weight is too.
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Teeny tiny little spider bots that creepy crawl everywhere and spin monofilament wires... thanks for giving me something for my next nightmare :o
P.S.: Love that idea!!!
This gives me a great idea! Get two microdrones, equip one with a monofilament whip, and the other with a grasping claw or magnet or something to grab the weight on the end of the whip. They climb up either side of a door frame and just wait.
Good for traps, deterring pursuit, slowing down reinforcements, or just being a dick.
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You sir are devious!
I like it!
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Monofilament whip "grenade":One little rocket jet to make it spin,(off centered) pull the pin and throw and in a few seconds a bunch of monofilament whips spool out, the rocket turning it into a little whirling death machine for a round or two.
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There was the filament grenade in War!
Basically a grenade that exploded for no damage... but sent out hundreds of monofilament strings in every direction.
Great for making Ganger soup!
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There was the filament grenade in War!
Basically a grenade that exploded for no damage... but sent out hundreds of monofilament strings in every direction.
Great for making Ganger soup!
It's funny that it has "hundreds of meters of monofilament wound around the exploding core" but only goes for 150 nuyen each. I wonder what size increments all that monowire comes in. If it was all in one piece then that could be incredibly profitable to disassemble with the right skills and tools/equipment on hand. Even if you couldn't sell it yourself, I'm pretty sure your fixer would be ecstatic to find a wealth of a very big-ticket item suddenly arriving on the market. Of course, one probably shouldn't do this too much and keep their mouth shut otherwise to avoid glutting the market and significantly raising the chance that part of this glut of monowire doesn't suddenly find its way inside of one of their teammates (or them).
Of course, that'd be too damn easy to make money off of, the GM would have a field day with punishing the players for being "smart" even if they did it with only one grenade.
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"I'm gonna take this filament grenade apart and sell the wire!!!"
"..... do you have demo skills? Do you have ceramic gloves?"
"No..... why?"
"No demo skills, no gloves.... and soon no fingers, table or floor..."
"Wait...what?"
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"I'm gonna take this filament grenade apart and sell the wire!!!"
"..... do you have demo skills? Do you have ceramic gloves?"
"No..... why?"
"No demo skills, no gloves.... and soon no fingers, table or floor..."
"Wait...what?"
I bet he loves his new cyberhands anyhow. ;D
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We call him "stumpy".
And when runs are scarce, set him up out side with a coffee pot and cymbals tied to his stumps.....
Then he just hacks into passing commlinks.
(No one suspects the cripple! .... right CanRay?)
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(No one suspects the cripple! .... right CanRay?)
No, everyone still suspects and blames me. :'(
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Say…. Would it be possible to make something which fires two slugs with a monofilamen wire suspended between them? Maybe in the range of a sniper rifle?
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"I want to call a shot on his neck."
i think we can all agree that decapitation is a instakill.
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So... like ol'skool bar and chain shot from the 16 to 18 century?
I guess you could come up with something. ... if you had a cannon.
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Didn't the War! book have something about monofilament bolas?
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i think we can all agree that decapitation is a instakill.
That's assuming it doesn't snag on itself or otherwise not cleanly land either side of the target's neck ... so in any game I've heard of, you'll still be rolling damage.
Which reminds me why I didn't like the monofilament grenade. Whether it's a tightly coiled length or multiple cast off lengths, all the wire needs to be weighted on both ends to cut, and getting them tangled in an explosion seems highly likely.
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i think we can all agree that decapitation is a instakill.
That's assuming it doesn't snag on itself or otherwise not cleanly land either side of the target's neck ... so in any game I've heard of, you'll still be rolling damage.
Which reminds me why I didn't like the monofilament grenade. Whether it's a tightly coiled length or multiple cast off lengths, all the wire needs to be weighted on both ends to cut, and getting them tangled in an explosion seems highly likely.
Yeah, the wire is so light that without weighted ends it shouldn't cause anything more than superficial damage. Basically a papercut bomb.
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Energy is Mass times Velocity. Such a weapon would have very little Mass, but could have very high Velocity, and combined with its very small surface area, could still potentially do a great deal of damage.
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Mass x Velocity gives Force, not Energy. Energy (Potential) is Mass x Height, Energy (Kinetic) is 0.5 x Mass x Velocity ^ 2.
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Say…. Would it be possible to make something which fires two slugs with a monofilamen wire suspended between them? Maybe in the range of a sniper rifle?
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"I want to call a shot on his neck."
i think we can all agree that decapitation is a instakill.
There's the monowire bolas and underbarrel bola launchers listed in Arsenal. Have to have an exotic ranged weapon skill for them to make it useful though.
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Mass x Velocity gives Force, not Energy. Energy (Potential) is Mass x Height, Energy (Kinetic) is 0.5 x Mass x Velocity ^ 2.
I stand corrected, thank you. My point remains valid, though. Enough velocity, and even a low mass object will strike with enough force to do damage.
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First, Mass x Velocity is Momentum, not Force. Mass x Acceleration is Force.
The issue is that the kinetic energy is not just expended by striking a target and cutting into it, it is also expended countering air friction (which gets higher the faster something goes) and twisting and turning in the air. Also, with a low mass comes very low inertia, which means it will slow down very quickly. The low mass also means when it hits it will decelerate almost instantly before it can cut very deep.
A monofilament whip or grenade uses a super-thin carbon nanotube wire which has a Density of 1.33-1.40 g/cm3; and a Diameter of 1.2nm, for an approximate Volume of 0.00000113cm3 per meter length. That gives a 3m long strand a total Mass of 0.0000034g (rounded up).
Assuming it is travelling at roughly the speed of sound, 340m/s, and ignoring air friction, that gives each strand (0.5*0.0000034g*(340m/s)2=) 0.197Joules of kinetic energy. At twice the speed of sound, it is still only 0.79J.
That isn't enough for even monowire to cut through or even into much of anything. Even hitting bare flesh it would be unlikely to do anything but superficial scratches. The biggest danger would be getting tagged with the end of one of the threads as it whizzed past you or getting hit in the eye, but even a cheap plastic lens would protect you from that.
And then you take into account deceleration due to wind resistance and the difficulty of accelerating something that light to a reasonable speed in the first place without an explosion that does more damage than the wires and you have a weapon that simply shouldn't work, not due to technological limitations but due to elementary physics. I wouldn't allow it in my game, because it is simply too unrealistic and breaks suspension of disbelief.
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And now I'm remembering why I failed physics despite knowing the basics of it before I even entered the class. :'(
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First, Mass x Velocity is Momentum, not Force. Mass x Acceleration is Force.
*sigh*
'scuse me, I have to catch the Failboat tonight.
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First, Mass x Velocity is Momentum, not Force. Mass x Acceleration is Force.
The issue is that the kinetic energy is not just expended by striking a target and cutting into it, it is also expended countering air friction (which gets higher the faster something goes) and twisting and turning in the air. Also, with a low mass comes very low inertia, which means it will slow down very quickly. The low mass also means when it hits it will decelerate almost instantly before it can cut very deep.
A monofilament whip or grenade uses a super-thin carbon nanotube wire which has a Density of 1.33-1.40 g/cm3; and a Diameter of 1.2nm, for an approximate Volume of 0.00000113cm3 per meter length. That gives a 3m long strand a total Mass of 0.0000034g (rounded up).
Assuming it is travelling at roughly the speed of sound, 340m/s, and ignoring air friction, that gives each strand (0.5*0.0000034g*(340m/s)2=) 0.197Joules of kinetic energy. At twice the speed of sound, it is still only 0.79J.
That isn't enough for even monowire to cut through or even into much of anything. Even hitting bare flesh it would be unlikely to do anything but superficial scratches. The biggest danger would be getting tagged with the end of one of the threads as it whizzed past you or getting hit in the eye, but even a cheap plastic lens would protect you from that.
And then you take into account deceleration due to wind resistance and the difficulty of accelerating something that light to a reasonable speed in the first place without an explosion that does more damage than the wires and you have a weapon that simply shouldn't work, not due to technological limitations but due to elementary physics. I wouldn't allow it in my game, because it is simply too unrealistic and breaks suspension of disbelief.
Way to spoil the fun! Ok, so I was way off...
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Way to spoil the fun! Ok, so I was way off...
If it'll make you feel any better, Rule of Cool trumps physics.
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Way to spoil the fun! Ok, so I was way off...
I had fun working all that out. It took a lot of research on physical properties of the materials and such, and I wasn't 100% certain who was right when I started.
If it'll make you feel any better, Rule of Cool trumps physics.
I agree with you up to a point, but Shadowrun is a believable world despite the dragons and magic because it is internally consistent. Even by the standards of the SR universe a grenade that uses wire instead of heavy steel fragments and doesn't even explode enough to do damage itself seems like a silly idea. It violates the internal game-logic of how monowire works (and how explosions work) in every other circumstance. As cool as the idea is, I lump it in with rocket launchers firing chainsaws and jet packs in the category of "too silly to exist" when it comes to SR.
Now, in Warhammer 40K the Eldar have weapons that use this exact principle that are devastatingly effective, but that falls in a totally different place on the realism spectrum from SR.
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Wait... you telling green skinned orcs that can turn a garbage can lid, a rusty spring, and a spanner into a tank isn't believable?!?
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Wait... you telling green skinned orcs that can turn a garbage can lid, a rusty spring, and a spanner into a tank isn't believable?!?
I call it "Tuesday".
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Wait... you telling green skinned orcs that can turn a garbage can lid, a rusty spring, and a spanner into a tank isn't believable?!?
I call it "Tuesday".
And I call that day, "Larry."
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Wait... you telling green skinned orcs that can turn a garbage can lid, a rusty spring, and a spanner into a tank isn't believable?!?
It's entirely believable...within the context of the world. On the other hand, I would question a SR orc that painted himself green and started shouting "Waaaaagh!" if they expected to be able to cobble together a working gun and motorcycle out of scrap, because the universe works entirely differently.
That is an interesting character concept though, an orc that was way too into 40K before they became a shadowrunner and tries to copy that style in cosmetic modifications to their gear.
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Please don't give my players any more ideas...
I am already dealing with "George Foreman XXVI" Ork physical adept boxer. ...
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My point remains valid, though. Enough velocity, and even a low mass object will strike with enough force to do damage.
Depending on the structure of that object and how it's deployed. I think everybody's been assuming it's just a coiled few strands of monowire like the old 'ball of chains' idea that was deployed now and again in the early days of gunpowder. I think we all know that would more than likely result in an expensive weapon that doesn't work (well).
Stargate had an idea that I think could be what this monowire grenade is supposed to function like, it would just need strong anchors on the ends of the monowire and propulsion to shoot them out when the grenade reached its desired central tether point:
[spoiler](http://stustation.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/message-in-a-bottle.jpg)
(http://cdn.static.ovimg.com/episode/85779.jpg)
[/spoiler]
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Well, hurricane winds have been known to drive low mass objects into trees and concrete... both of which are much denser then flesh... so I guess the grenade could work, depending on the velocity of the explosive used, given the low fricton level of the monowire....
But by anarkitty's math, it does seem unlikely.
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Stargate had an idea that I think could be what this monowire grenade is supposed to function like, it would just need strong anchors on the ends of the monowire and propulsion to shoot them out when the grenade reached its desired central tether point:
Sounds more like the instant snare, which creates a microwire web 6m in diameter. Spy Games.
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Well, hurricane winds have been known to drive low mass objects into trees and concrete... both of which are much denser then flesh... so I guess the grenade could work, depending on the velocity of the explosive used, given the low fricton level of the monowire....
But by anarkitty's math, it does seem unlikely.
That is a one-in-a-million fluke when it does happen, which is why it's interesting enough that you hear about it. What you don't hear about is the millions or billions of other pieces of straw or sticks that hit that wall at the same velocity and simply were pulverized to dust.
The same concept would apply here. If one in a thousand, or even one in a hundred, of those grenades might manage to do some real damage under optimum conditions. That still means it is not a reliable enough weapon to be worth manufacturing, especially since even if it works it's not really any better than a fragmentation or Hi-Ex grenade.
The Stargate version seems more plausible as far as the physics go, but the technological requirements are maddening: How long is each of the monowire strands and how do you keep them from hanging slack or catching before the attached anchor hits anything? How do the anchors reliably bite into what they are hitting? How do you throw the anchors out without an explosion large enough that it might as well just be a frag grenade anyway?
Also, remember there is a difference in SR between the monowire used for climbing and the monowire used in monofilament weapons.
Weapon-grade monowire is thinner, more expensive and (presumably) has a lower tensile strength.
Climbing monowire will still cut you if you try to hang from it in bare hands, but just picking up a strand carefully shouldn't hurt you and even with a weight on the end swinging it around wouldn't make a very effective weapon. Think 50Lb.-test fishing line that can actually hold 1000Lbs.
The Instant Snare is probably the latter, although I don't have Spy Games to reference, because if it was the former it wouldn't be called an "Instant Snare", it would be called an "Instant Blender" or "Instant Salsa-Maker".
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The tensile strength of the monowire in SR could in fact be VERY high depending on what it is made from.
Carbon nanotubes have a tensile strength of something like 16 times that of steel. (Not to mention voltaic storage properties!)
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Yes, but like everything, if two wires have the same basic materials and structure, they can only be made stronger by getting thicker.
A monowire in a whip is likely a single strand because the priority is on cutting power. So thin you can barely see the wire except for a glint in the air. You wouldn't want to try and swing across a pit on it like Indiana Jones, though. If it doesn't cut through whatever it is wrapped around, there is a good chance it wouldn't support your weight and snap, or the motor in the handle that retracts the line would give out.
A monofilament rappelling line has less emphasis on cutting things (in fact, you don't want it to usually) and more on balancing strength with weight and bulk, meaning a thicker strand. It is designed to not cut, because that would defeat the purpose of tying it to something to support you. It is thin enough to cut your hands if you were to hang from it without gloves, but it isn't going to slice through your leg if you walk into it. It makes a good garrote or trip wire, but not a weapon.
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Just to clarify; the rappelling wire and the whip wire are somewhat different - microwire and monowire, respectively.
Microwire: This micro rope is made of an extremely thin (nearly monofilament) and resilient fiber; a great length of it can be stored in a very small compartment, and it is very difficult to see. The downside is that it can only be grabbed with special protective rappelling gloves without slicing straight through the climber’s hands, inflicting 8P damage with an AP of –8.
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Ah, thank you. I didn't have my rule book at hand and my memory did not server me perfectly in this case.
"(nearly monofilament)" is telling. It means it is probably similar to a braided cable made of multiple monowires.
It sounds like RAI it is only supposed to do the damage if you try to use it for climbing without the special gloves, but RAW it potentially does damage any time it is "grabbed" which means it would be quite effective as a trap or possibly even weapon in a pinch.
I would even let a player with monofilament whip skill use a microwire climbing line with a weight on the end as an improvised weapon but it would do less damage.
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"(nearly monofilament)" is telling. It means it is probably similar to a braided cable made of multiple monowires.
At that price, I sincerely doubt it. It is more likely similar but completely different material.