[vinnmun]

Mages with the Radar cyberwear......would that work for spellcasting since you're paying essence for it?

[Reiper]

I believe it has to be true line of sight in order to cast.

[All4BigGuns]

Radar, no. Cyber Eyes, yes.

[Mantis]

Line of Sight means just that, you need to see the target with eyes (natural or cyber). You really don't want to open up the can of worms that is radar sensors or ultrasound being used  to target spells, especially radar with the ability to 'see' through walls.

[All4BigGuns]

Line of Sight means just that, you need to see the target with eyes (natural or cyber). You really don't want to open up the can of worms that is radar sensors or ultrasound being used  to target spells, especially radar with the ability to 'see' through walls.

Yeah, things might be able to get slightly out of hand if a mage could use Ultrawideband to target their spells.

[vinnmun]

Yah it was so BS, I wanted to make sure. Thanks again peeps.

[Blue_Lion]

I believe it has to be true line of sight in order to cast.

No it does not. Look at things like mage sight gogles, witch allow mages to cast spells around corners and threw walls.

This is actualy old subject. It has already once been debated. As I recall the last points from it where.

The people points agaist it
agrue that the word enhancent only counts to the things you put in cyber eyes/ ears,
one saying it should not because it is to highly processed.
That some how the cyber eyes that used DNI where pure optical and had no electronics in it.

Points for it
 That it produces a image simlar to imaging radar used by TSA at airports, looks something like a snap shot.
The vision center of the brain is not built to disciminate where how the image it seas is made.
Some one listed faq on detecting people with non visual means for line of sight.


That said my personal opion if a mage pays for it with essense it and it is in the body it counts as part of the mages body and can be used for any elements of spell casting that the type of sense could. IE a mage with a cyber hand could use the cyber hand for touch spells. The radar sense is bouncing EM field on the far side of the infred to bounce of things and build a image in a simlar maner as nomral eyes whould light (and to me cyber eyes be just seam to be just as highly processed) note most low light imaging stuff works by using infrared so em spectrom wise it is not to far off.

I whould also point out that a mage with mage sight gogles can do most of the threw the wall targeting they could with the radar sense but whould need to drill/shoot a whole threw the wall to run the cable threw. So targeting threw a wall this way is not something to far beyound a mage curtnly abilty just quicker.

This should be the old topic on it. http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6834.msg120589#msg120589

[Mantis]

Mage sight goggles are nothing like Radar Sensor cyberware. They use a fibre optic cable to see at distance. Your example requires you to bore a hole through the material of the wall first. You could just stick your eye up to that hole and look through it too, thus establishing the LOS.  Boring a hole you can get the fibre optics cable through on a moving vehicle is difficult to say the least. Furthermore it is only good for the wall in front of you at the time. The activity of boring through the wall is also not really stealthy. The goggles also use optical means to see (fibre optic cable plus mirrors) rather than a purely technological computer enhanced method like the radar sensor.
None of these are issues for the radar sensor. So long as the barrier is less than the rating the Sensor allows you to 'see' through and the target is within 100m you can 'see' it. So moving vehicles, concrete walls, multiple drywall walls, several layers of polarized glass; none of these are going to stop a radar sensor from detecting targets.
What you propose removes one of the balancing factors of magicians. They have always been limited to targeting things with spells by having to see that thing with their eyes. I'd rather not remove that limit.
The FAQ about using other senses to acquire 'line of sight' is purely in the GM's hands (and therefore optional) as to whether to allow it or not. Furthermore, if allowed, it requires a perception test to pull off first (guess you cast that spell next pass). Last, the radar sensor is headware, not eyeware and so shouldn't be lumped into the same category. It is a sensor. Not vision.

[Mäx]

It doesn't as it's not vision, the sensor uses radar waves inputted to a expert software to generate an image overlay.
Same as you can't target based on a security camera video feeded to your cyber eyes.

[Blue_Lion]

It doesn't as it's not vision, the sensor uses radar waves inputted to a expert software to generate an image overlay.
Same as you can't target based on a security camera video feeded to your cyber eyes.

That is difrent, you can use outside streaming but the image is created by a sensor inside your body just like your yes. The rules clearly state that you can not use streamed data but the data is not streamed.

Eyes use bounced light to see a image with the light beeing bounced off objects.

The radar sensor cyberware uses ultra wide band waves isntead of light waves to creat the same affect.

All cyberware use a DNI to send singals to your body so even the cyber eyes normal sight is a computer genreated image.

[Blue_Lion]

Mage sight goggles are nothing like Radar Sensor cyberware. They use a fibre optic cable to see at distance. Your example requires you to bore a hole through the material of the wall first. You could just stick your eye up to that hole and look through it too, thus establishing the LOS.  Boring a hole you can get the fibre optics cable through on a moving vehicle is difficult to say the least. Furthermore it is only good for the wall in front of you at the time. The activity of boring through the wall is also not really stealthy. The goggles also use optical means to see (fibre optic cable plus mirrors) rather than a purely technological computer enhanced method like the radar sensor.
None of these are issues for the radar sensor. So long as the barrier is less than the rating the Sensor allows you to 'see' through and the target is within 100m you can 'see' it. So moving vehicles, concrete walls, multiple drywall walls, several layers of polarized glass; none of these are going to stop a radar sensor from detecting targets.
What you propose removes one of the balancing factors of magicians. They have always been limited to targeting things with spells by having to see that thing with their eyes. I'd rather not remove that limit.
The FAQ about using other senses to acquire 'line of sight' is purely in the GM's hands (and therefore optional) as to whether to allow it or not. Furthermore, if allowed, it requires a perception test to pull off first (guess you cast that spell next pass). Last, the radar sensor is headware, not eyeware and so shouldn't be lumped into the same category. It is a sensor. Not vision.

Acutaly mage sight googles can do more than that, they can feed images around coners or can be streamed threw hiding ducts or paths threw walls and around coners. It is posible to set up a network of fibor optic camera/cables to allow a mage to target any room in a buildin from a safe room. Basicaly if you have the money and time you can wire a whole building to allow your mage to blast any point in it.  The fact that the cable is flexable means it is more than just what you can see threw  the whole you can put it threw the whole and turn it, even use it to look around coners.

Rember thou the radar sensor can be blocked by wii fii blocking measures (like thouse used to protect from hackers) and is sustable to beeing jamed. The also can be detected as it is outside the normal back ground sensor noise.

I am not tring to remove a "balancing factor" on mages. If you read the old thread I was looking for a clear rule that it whould not work but argued for it, because I could not find the rule, so was hoping some one could help me find what I was looking for. It was never found in the end wether or not it works is based on a groups personal taste/ideas.

A your eye is a visual sensor, so it is in the same catagory as any sensor that allows you to "see" visual images.

Your statement is based on personal Bais that it should not work, not that the rules say it does not.

I can understand the gut reaction to say no, no one ever found a clear rule that says no, that allows use of cyber bioware never specified it was limited to eye ware. So it boils down to what sight is. Astal sight can be used for casting spells and that has nothing to do with your eyes, infact blind charters with astral sight can use it to see. If sight is your brain processing visual data, then as long as the visual sensor(your eye is a type of visual sensor) is part of the boady it counts.

But rember what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If your players want to use a trick like this then so can the people they are running agaist. 

[All4BigGuns]

Mage sight goggles are nothing like Radar Sensor cyberware. They use a fibre optic cable to see at distance. Your example requires you to bore a hole through the material of the wall first. You could just stick your eye up to that hole and look through it too, thus establishing the LOS.  Boring a hole you can get the fibre optics cable through on a moving vehicle is difficult to say the least. Furthermore it is only good for the wall in front of you at the time. The activity of boring through the wall is also not really stealthy. The goggles also use optical means to see (fibre optic cable plus mirrors) rather than a purely technological computer enhanced method like the radar sensor.
None of these are issues for the radar sensor. So long as the barrier is less than the rating the Sensor allows you to 'see' through and the target is within 100m you can 'see' it. So moving vehicles, concrete walls, multiple drywall walls, several layers of polarized glass; none of these are going to stop a radar sensor from detecting targets.
What you propose removes one of the balancing factors of magicians. They have always been limited to targeting things with spells by having to see that thing with their eyes. I'd rather not remove that limit.
The FAQ about using other senses to acquire 'line of sight' is purely in the GM's hands (and therefore optional) as to whether to allow it or not. Furthermore, if allowed, it requires a perception test to pull off first (guess you cast that spell next pass). Last, the radar sensor is headware, not eyeware and so shouldn't be lumped into the same category. It is a sensor. Not vision.

Acutaly mage sight googles can do more than that, they can feed images around coners or can be streamed threw hiding ducts or paths threw walls and around coners. It is posible to set up a network of fibor optic camera/cables to allow a mage to target any room in a buildin from a safe room. Basicaly if you have the money and time you can wire a whole building to allow your mage to blast any point in it.  The fact that the cable is flexable means it is more than just what you can see threw  the whole you can put it threw the whole and turn it, even use it to look around coners.

Rember thou the radar sensor can be blocked by wii fii blocking measures (like thouse used to protect from hackers) and is sustable to beeing jamed. The also can be detected as it is outside the normal back ground sensor noise.

I am not tring to remove a "balancing factor" on mages. If you read the old thread I was looking for a clear rule that it whould not work but argued for it, because I could not find the rule, so was hoping some one could help me find what I was looking for. It was never found in the end wether or not it works is based on a groups personal taste/ideas.

A your eye is a visual sensor, so it is in the same catagory as any sensor that allows you to "see" visual images.

Your statement is based on personal Bais that it should not work, not that the rules say it does not.

I can understand the gut reaction to say no, no one ever found a clear rule that says no, that allows use of cyber bioware never specified it was limited to eye ware. So it boils down to what sight is. Astal sight can be used for casting spells and that has nothing to do with your eyes, infact blind charters with astral sight can use it to see. If sight is your brain processing visual data, then as long as the visual sensor(your eye is a type of visual sensor) is part of the boady it counts.

But rember what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If your players want to use a trick like this then so can the people they are running agaist.

And yours is personal bias that it should work, not that the rules say it does.

[Blue_Lion]

Mage sight goggles are nothing like Radar Sensor cyberware. They use a fibre optic cable to see at distance. Your example requires you to bore a hole through the material of the wall first. You could just stick your eye up to that hole and look through it too, thus establishing the LOS.  Boring a hole you can get the fibre optics cable through on a moving vehicle is difficult to say the least. Furthermore it is only good for the wall in front of you at the time. The activity of boring through the wall is also not really stealthy. The goggles also use optical means to see (fibre optic cable plus mirrors) rather than a purely technological computer enhanced method like the radar sensor.
None of these are issues for the radar sensor. So long as the barrier is less than the rating the Sensor allows you to 'see' through and the target is within 100m you can 'see' it. So moving vehicles, concrete walls, multiple drywall walls, several layers of polarized glass; none of these are going to stop a radar sensor from detecting targets.
What you propose removes one of the balancing factors of magicians. They have always been limited to targeting things with spells by having to see that thing with their eyes. I'd rather not remove that limit.
The FAQ about using other senses to acquire 'line of sight' is purely in the GM's hands (and therefore optional) as to whether to allow it or not. Furthermore, if allowed, it requires a perception test to pull off first (guess you cast that spell next pass). Last, the radar sensor is headware, not eyeware and so shouldn't be lumped into the same category. It is a sensor. Not vision.

Acutaly mage sight googles can do more than that, they can feed images around coners or can be streamed threw hiding ducts or paths threw walls and around coners. It is posible to set up a network of fibor optic camera/cables to allow a mage to target any room in a buildin from a safe room. Basicaly if you have the money and time you can wire a whole building to allow your mage to blast any point in it.  The fact that the cable is flexable means it is more than just what you can see threw  the whole you can put it threw the whole and turn it, even use it to look around coners.

Rember thou the radar sensor can be blocked by wii fii blocking measures (like thouse used to protect from hackers) and is sustable to beeing jamed. The also can be detected as it is outside the normal back ground sensor noise.

I am not tring to remove a "balancing factor" on mages. If you read the old thread I was looking for a clear rule that it whould not work but argued for it, because I could not find the rule, so was hoping some one could help me find what I was looking for. It was never found in the end wether or not it works is based on a groups personal taste/ideas.

A your eye is a visual sensor, so it is in the same catagory as any sensor that allows you to "see" visual images.

Your statement is based on personal Bais that it should not work, not that the rules say it does not.

I can understand the gut reaction to say no, no one ever found a clear rule that says no, that allows use of cyber bioware never specified it was limited to eye ware. So it boils down to what sight is. Astal sight can be used for casting spells and that has nothing to do with your eyes, infact blind charters with astral sight can use it to see. If sight is your brain processing visual data, then as long as the visual sensor(your eye is a type of visual sensor) is part of the boady it counts.

But rember what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If your players want to use a trick like this then so can the people they are running agaist.

And yours is personal bias that it should work, not that the rules say it does.

No I said that the rules do not say it does not work. That weather or not it works is realy up to how you define sight and is up to your group to decide if does or not. Unless you can point to where the rules say it does not work.

[Mäx]

It doesn't as it's not vision, the sensor uses radar waves inputted to a expert software to generate an image overlay.
Same as you can't target based on a security camera video feeded to your cyber eyes.

That is difrent, you can use outside streaming but the image is created by a sensor inside your body just like your yes. The rules clearly state that you can not use streamed data but the data is not streamed.

Eyes use bounced light to see a image with the light beeing bounced off objects.

The radar sensor cyberware uses ultra wide band waves isntead of light waves to creat the same affect.

It also use an expert software to convert that data into an image overlay(that you can do away with your norm vision and just see the overlay  doesn't change the fact that it is computer generated image), where as the yes just feed the video into your brains.

[WellsIDidIt]

It does not work. The rules give two ways to target spells (barring the ill conceived FAQ entry that doesn't give any clarification): LoS and Touch. LoS has to be direct and "natural vision". Vision that is paid for with essence counts as natural in this case.

With Radar implants, you never actually "spot" a target. The radar implant detects the target then displays an image map over your vision of the target. It's no different than linking an implanted security camera up to your image link. The data is being recorded, processed, and then fed to you. Sure, it's live, but it's not a natural vision by any means, the image is rendered from scratch by the expert driver. Sight is not the natural way for the sense to be used, just the easiest way for humans to interpret it.

How is this different from cybereyes? Cybereyes are designed to function as similar to human eyes as possible. They simply pass along the direct image being seen to the brain just like a normal eye would. Since they aren't built yet, we can't actually know exactly what is entailed, but we do know that the image does not have to be completely created from scratch because its already present.

Keep in mind that just paying essence for an implant does not make it automatically work for targeting spells. Look at the two ways I've listed above. Cyberlimbs do not allow a character the ability to cast through them (reading the test, only enhancements used to spot work).

No I said that the rules do not say it does not work. That weather or not it works is realy up to how you define sight and is up to your group to decide if does or not. Unless you can point to where the rules say it does not work.

This device emits ultrawideband and terahertz radar in short stepped-frequency pulses. An expert system analyzes the Doppler shift in the bounced signals and converts the information into a three-dimensional “map” that overlays (or replaces) the user’s visual senses.

It makes it extremely clear that this isn't sight. It's a completely generated image that overlays or replaces the user's visual senses. It's not a vision mode. This is made clear both by the implant type (Headware rather than a cybereye mod) and the fact that it lets you "see" (emphasis the book's, not mine). Any attempt to claim it's sight is laughable at best. Comparing it to something like Mage Sight Goggles (which is sight since it's a direct fiber optic cable. It's no different than using a mirror.) is similarly a horrible excuse to let it work.

That said, there is a difference between a computer generated image and a computer filtered image. Sight through cybereyes may be computer filtered and cropped (and enhanced by those different eye mods), but they are not 100% computer generated.