[inca1980]

I was just adjusting the prices that you listed for the cyberware,  that's all.  You do get 1500 for the wired reflexes, but next time i'll just straight up give you the prices when there's loot, point taken.

I didn't change the 3s CT when you're actually in combat.  So when it comes to shooting, striking, dodging, running in the middle of combat everything happens at 3s.   But to try to pack in all the roleplaying fluff which happens usually outside of combat into only a few seconds, it just is pretty rediculous to think that the speed at which you talk and carry on a conversation is somehow sped up at super human speeds.....that would just be kind of lame.  I just imagine it like matrix, where people move and talk rather normally until combat starts and then everything goes into slow motion and you can actually see marble and plaster flying off of the walls and you flipping upside down in slow-motion....and then as soon as the immediate threats are neutralized and you're not engaged, the camera speeds up again and you move at slower more realistic speeds.  I mean I would stick to RAW and have everything be cut into 3s intervals....but then vehicle combat contradicts this and now all of a sudden a CT=20s.  So what about other activities?   This shows that even RAW says that time is supposed to be flexible depending on activity.  I described it in that post i did. 

But don't worry, you're still moving like Neo when it comes to combat sequences.  The thing is when I said that 1 minute had passed, you guys had been out of combat for a little bit and only had enemies in the apartement and you guys were waiting each other out alittle and a bunch of dialogue had passed....you cut a guys head off i think....I don't know, but in any case....I'll determine how much time has gone by when you're not directly engaging an enemy, that's all I meant. 

Then when it comes to Surprise...there's a whole thread discussing it.  I feel that just knowing that "there is an enemy somewhere" is not enough to be immune from being surprised.  There's alerady a mechanism for "being ready" and that's the +3 to surprise if you're "alerted".  You guys didn't walk into an ambush either....the guys had no idea you were coming.  All you did was alert the spirit which was guarding the hallway and since Stryker was projecting, you didn't know for at least 1 CT that there was any trouble. 

When i spoke about sammy hunting of course i was kidding........but i did mean to say that in a world where even a moderately cybered sam's body could sell for 20K, every fixer in town would suddenly get into the sammy hunting business because it would be the most lucrative gig in town!  I'm just talking economics.  So eventually what would happen?  Every fixer in town would get into it....then the supply of used sammy parts would sky rocket, and that would shoot the price down, then it would go way less than 20K.  I was just giving a realworld example of why a 20K sammy is just not "realistic".

[Teyl_Iliar]

I'm seeing a trend occuring, so I want the throw this out right now and this is directed to everyone currently active in the OOC.

To my fellow PC's. please listen to me when I say I know that you might be frustrated about certain aspects of what happens while we are playing and how things go down sometimes. Believe me when I say, I understand. HOWEVER, we are the players and Inca is the GM. It is his Job to throw us into situations that we have to fight our way out of by either brains or brawn. YES sometimes we could level the playing field by getting more of a chance to figure out what we're walking into, and I understand that you want the opportunity to do so; but you also have to understand that even the most prepared people can only be ready for so much. We had choices from the get go that would have allowed us to engage on other terms, and we didn't take them because We walked in thinking we had the upper hand. Most people would consider the fact that we not only lived, but still beat our enemies after they took us by surprise BEYOND lucky, considering we almost had a Total Party Wipe out in the first CT. But we did beat them and we still got away, made a profit, and things no matter how shitty they are, are looking up for us. To quote Brick, "We turned a shitty situation into a success story. " So please for interest of not distracting from the run, I would ask you to show a little faith in our GM who is challenging us as a team. We are here improve our skills not only as PC's but as players dealing in combat as a whole. This PBP is specifically for that and you should have known that when you made your characters they were going to get thrown into the shittiest of FUBAR situations. You can't blame the GM every time his NPCs kick our asses, that's why they're there. Also OUR choices affect what happens too. I'm getting a little tired of the finger pointing and the, "well if only this wasn't that." or "that's just not fair" If you look at the over all picture of what happened its all our fault just as much as anything else.

So that said I would really and truly appreciate it if this OOC bickering would stop. We are all grown ass men. If you don't like the play style you don't have to play. If you want to play, then understand that our GM is trying to challenge us to become better. If you don't like how something has played out in the IC or feel that something has been done UNFAIRLY to your character or our group please take it up with myself before just saying this is Bullshit. I will be more than happy to talk to you about something that you don't like and argue the point in your defense to the GM or allow you to do it yourself, as long as it is done tactfully. Inca even though he's our GM is still human too and can make mistakes. He knows as much and is more than willing to make amends when it's pointed out tactfully. I respect all of you, and I expect you to treat each other and myself in the same way.

It is not my intent to offend anyone, if I have I apologize, but I have increasingly felt the need to clarify my position and to try and end this frustrating and pointless pissing match. We're all in this together, now lets see this run finished so we can karma up and see what the future holds.

Teyl-

[Kot]

I'm still thinking a few OOC Legwork rolls would be in order before the next job...

[Sichr]

When i spoke about sammy hunting of course i was kidding........but i did mean to say that in a world where even a moderately cybered sam's body could sell for 20K, every fixer in town would suddenly get into the sammy hunting business because it would be the most lucrative gig in town!  I'm just talking economics.  So eventually what would happen?  Every fixer in town would get into it....then the supply of used sammy parts would sky rocket, and that would shoot the price down, then it would go way less than 20K.  I was just giving a realworld example of why a 20K sammy is just not "realistic".

You know...there is very prosperous and advanced bussines in the Shadowrun world, Tamanous and other organ leggers are good example. So it is not at all impossible or necessarily unrealistic.
About that 3s CT taken. That is why I had been against sme OOC planing, in the combat we have ony limited space for discusion...I think that simple sentence is a free action. My tabletop players already developed a set of simple signals they should use in the combat, when they are disputing some plan details, I am treating them like passive targets, they quickly developed the ability to talk less and act more

About that surprise rules...we both have our opinions. For me it is meant, as it is RAW stated, for UNEXPECTED encounters. For you, it is more like what you called in that thread "WoW sneaky attacks". Surprise rules are lethal, so there may be some consensus on their use.
I dont want to change something that happened. Id just like to avoid this kind of missunderstading in the future. Sorry,

This was my last post about that topic

I respect you Teyl, and there is lot of truth in your words. I like that:
"We turned a shitty situation into a success story."
Also no offense, but I dont need your approval for disputing something with my GM. Clear?

For me, it is an honor to be the part of this game and the team, and I like that it is challenging. Im done with complaining and ready for next grenade

[inca1980]

Ok, so costs:

Zach's medical care: 11500
Strykers: 1000

Rush's safehouse: We'll call it at 300 nuyen for 6 hours to keep the bodies.

Total costs: 12800¥

[Teyl_Iliar]

since things moved kind of fast i just wanted to throw this up on since brick would have done it while waiting for the calls.Brick's first Aid roll at the underground safe house at a -1 (9d6.hits(5)=2) that's P2 I'll get back and i can now have that -1 back

[inca1980]

@Sichr:

And one more thing about "disputing" something with your GM.  Sentences like "my table-top group does" so and so are more what Teyl I feel is talking about.  I mean, in most things in life, like at your job or even with your teacher at school, and your parents...basically any authority figure, it's important to sometimes question what they say because sometimes they're wrong.  But I'm a GM, not an authority figure!  I'm not trying to oppress you or tell you what to do....I'm basically the computer that you're playing WoW on....I'm you're Xbox 360.  Maybe you're the type of guy who shouts at your Xbox 360 and throws the controller across the room when you get frustrated....but people who wanna keep on having fun usually don't do that and just accept what that Xbox 360 tells them happened to their Halo character because they understood that when they stepped into the world of Halo, they would accept whatever the computer tells them happens.  That's why cheat-codes exist, cuz there's some people that don't have fun doing things that way....but a lot of people don't like using cheatcodes...basically telling the computer to do things the way they want them to go....they wanna be at the mercy of the computer with their only friends being their brain and their controller.

So IDEALLY, unless you're straight up correcting a mistake I made about something you said, you know, a misunderstanding or what not, you shouldn't really be disputing ANYTHING at all about my calls.  Basically your only friend is those sweaty little dice in your hand and your roleplaying skills.  If you want to debate the price of something with me for example....do it through IC dialogue between your character and an NPC i'm playing....cuss that NPC out all you want, but at least you're still participating in the illusion of the adventure.  I mean, very few things in life are like RPG's....not even sports, because the umpire is just an authority figure.  In pen and paper RPG's...the GM is GOD.  Now why would someone submit themselves to having another person be GOD?  Well because we do the same thing everytime we pick up a novel.....i've literally read books that I wanna throw because I'm so mad at the author for what he chose to do with certain characters....I usually keep on reading to find out more, especially if I like the author.  A few rare times i just decide to stop reading because it just pisses me off too much....kind of like you almost did when you ate that second frag grenade, but you didn't and everyone involved had a lot of fun because of your decision to stay.

So basically, it's not so much that a player is ruining it for me if they treat the GM more like an authority figure and not like the computer they play WoW on, they're ruining it for the other players.  Now of course that's not gonna totally stop people from arguing with the GM, that's just part of role-playing culture...but still, that IDEAL is what should always be kept in mind and what I feel Teyl was referring to.  It wasn't about his "approval" to dispute something with me....he was just expressing that it lessens the fun for him because all of a sudden the fantasy world becomes less real when people are getting "meta-pissed off". 

[Sichr]

Sorry...no Xbox, no WoW in my life. Only Farcry and Mount and Blades

Aaahhh. You are no G.O.D, only a human GM, who sometimes may make a mistake.

You know what?

Just forget it. This only pisses people off. It is our first run together, sometimes people just need to get used to each others style. I will do just roleplay and anytime in the future I will feel you are missinterpretting rules I will just bite my tongue. Because you are GM and you can do it. I know that when Im a GM, I also have some tricks..not cheats, just atmosphere boosters...and sometimes I do things that are really impossible by RAW.

Should we please consider this finihed?

[Kot]

Well, I'm a GM, and I don't consider myself 'god', only a director/arbiter+storywriter+narrator. It's all about having fun, and I tend to point out reasons why I don't, as I encourage my players to do. Besides that - by not allowing Legwork in UB you create scenarios, where we start a run unprepared. That's why this happened for the third time - you made a judgment call our characters would never do.
I'll say again, that a basic, roll-based legwork process would create a more controlled encounter in which we would have a chance to be prepared.

It's not that I don't enjoy it. I know in both cases it was pure bad luck that made my character almost end his career. I like UB, and I would like to continue playing it in this form, or another...

[inca1980]

I agree with Kot on the legwork thing and it's a good point.  Before the next UB, in order to get quickly to the action, we'll just do some die rolls that i set up like Kot mentioned and that will give a few different levels of information.  ..also in between runs is the best time for you to comment on stuff like this all you want....and we're basically done, Teyl just has to post and I'll react to his post and wrap it up and we should be done unless any of you guys have anything else you wanna do.

@Sichr:
it's all cool, i'm done saying what I had to say.  I agree, there are different styles, and my style, especially cuz SR leaves so much up to the GM as actual RAW is to try to be as much like a computer RPG as I can be but then a step up because I can adapt and change a plot completely as events unfold.  Especially in PbP though, i like to run it more like an author writing a book and your decisions, roleplaying and die rolls which i call for are what alter the narrative.  So i think we're ready for the next UB and we all understand each other's styles now.

[Sichr]

Ready? You bet It is a pleasure.
About that narrating...Im doing what I can with my english...and I think that this month after the surgery spended by communicating with people in english helped me a lot.
One think is that legwork should help us to understand the threat. But in fact, we had made some mistakes and we paid for them. Every impatience reveals itself. But it was possible to do this mission without complications also from the point we had entered  this time. We just need to do things right

[inca1980]

Ok we're done.  Awesome job guys....best UB so far!!!  Now we'll start on UB 4 soon.  A fourth guy wants to come on board and if he's down with the way things work here then we'll be ready.   I'll post Karma in a few hours, gotta go teach right now! 

[Sichr]

Yдовольствие !!! 

It was a good plan...even better than ghouls. Well done, Teyl

[Teyl_Iliar]

Thank you sichr. Moments like this just remind me that Hannibal said it best, "I love it when a plan comes together."

[inca1980]

Ok so for Karma:

Base for everyone is 5 for just going on the run, and 5 Karma for a completing the objective for a total of 10 Karma.  I'm not gonna be doing the usual Street Cred = Total Karma Earned/10, since because we're on PbP total Karma earned is skewed to account for the length of realworld time it takes to do a shadowrun.  So each of you get 1 point of Street Cred.  This means you can add this to social tests in the shadows that I say it can apply to.

@Brick:   +2 Karma for having a crazy idea for saving both your teammates from certain death which eventually led to completing the mission.
               +1 Karma for keeping with your Signature negative quality
               +2 For the great roleplaying like in that last post.
             Total= 15 Karma
             You do get +1 notoriety in the shadows though for your signature.  You also get +1 notoriety for the video because word gets out that the guy making it is some runner named "Brick" but that's your alter-ego.

@Stryker: +2 Karma for great roleplaying of your character and taking the fact that your character gets wailed on pretty hard and doing something roleplaying-wise with it.  The altruism and his youth really come across.
                +1 Karma for Banishing that spirit and some other pwnage.
              Total=13 Karma

@Zach:  +1 Karma for really taking that Hand of God chance I gave you and bouncing back to save both of your teamates when they most needed it.

              +1 For roleplaying Zach really well....you're developing him and now you have a lot more stuff to roleplay on in the next UB.
             Total=12 Karma

So you can use this to train whatever attribute you want and this doesn't take up time.  To train skills, make an instruction test like it says in SR4A and make sure to pay a lifestyle cost for every month that it takes.  Zach has to make a survival test for each month.  All damage accumulated from failing a survival test stays with you and you start with that much damage for the run.  This reflects your general lack of health for living completely on the streets.  If you buy a higher lifestyle for a month, then you don't have to make a survival test that month.   

Stryker can initiate too if he desires.  If you wanna do an Ordeal or join a group, then we can talk about it.

Also discuss how you're gonna divide up loot money.  The total payday with everything included and all costs subtracted is 16224 nuyen, but you guys should decide how your characters would divide this.