[Alchemyst]

So finally gave into making an account. Long time reader on these forums but usually other posts answer my questions without my say haha, but I can't find any solution to this particular problem.

I decided to start up another an SR4e campaign recently and of course someone decided to be the "make Robin Hood look amateur" archer which is fine and dandy except this last session combat had started with bad circumstances, everyone being thrown underwater. Well the archer decided to open fire... you can see where this is going!

Now following Arsenal pg 171, I ruled it as -2 (thermographic vision shallow water vision penalty) and -1 (lack of mask or cybereyes) to attack for a -3 penalty total. He also lost 3 damage for being about a meter away.

The problem comes down to after that when the navy seal type decided to knife fight his way out. Well, he had two choices...
1) Melee with a -3 penalty (-1 normal vision penalties, -2 underwater melee)
2) Thrown with a penalty of -1 (-1 normal vision penalties)
I almost went deaf when he shouted "WHAT!?" in surprise.

That can't be right can it? How is it easier to throw a knife at someone that to stab someone underwater?

I guess, in short, it comes down to...

How do you handle underwater combat? Especially when it comes to thrown weapons, bows, and the like.

Should muscle powered weapons such as thrown weapons and bows incur melee penalties as well?

Is damage reduced right away? Within 1 meter = -2 or -3 DV, 1-2 meters = -4 or -6 DV, etc?

Thoughts?

[Reaver]

You use common sense.

The water as a medium would totally counteract the throwing of a knife. End of story.

As for a bow, the same principles apply. The water drag on the arms of the bow would counteract the tension, the arrow MAY be thrown a few feet, but not with the force needed to hurt someone in a combat situation.

Look at a speargun, it's all a straight line using tendon bands to propell the spear forward... And then only a few meters with any lethal force.

If buddy really wants to argue the point, tell him to prove it by using the local river/pool...

[Alchemyst]

Why I'm at it I'll just tell my players not to use magic or anything like that because of how unrealistic it is.

This is a game where average "walking pace" is 7.5mph and you can play as a person who with their mind can create "living" beings out of pure data and send them to a secret realm of existence to link up with machines that don't actually have anything to link with. I am aware that these forums are teeming with people who are trying to "help" by shouting out how things work in real life but come on...this game is the farthest from realistic as can be.

I'm not looking for what I can do to make it realistic, I'm looking for what other people have done to keep balance or help with interpretation of balanced mechanics already in place.

[Hellfire]

here is how I understand the rules / play them:

every weapon that "shoots" (= some kind of projectile travels from the "shooter" to the target) has the rules in underwater combat as if "shooting" from surface into the water = DV reduction for firearms of -2 per meter and DV reduction for all other projectiles of -3 per meter (Arsenal p 171), melee attacks get -1 DV

Furthermore visibility modifiers for underwater combat apply in addition to all other "normal" modifiers for ranged and melee combat. Melee combat gets an additional -2 dicepool modifier due to restricted movement.

So here are a few examples:
- Shooting an Underwater SMG at a shark 3m away with termographic vision (shooter not moving, target swimming fast towards his next meal):
dicepool/DV modifiers: -1 for vision, -6 DV for distance underwater

- same situation with a throwing knife: -1 vision, -9 DV due to distance

Shark closes to melee distance (1m)
- Shooting with SMG: -1 vision, -3 in melee, +2 point blank = total mod of -2, and -2 DV
- throwing knife: -1 vision, -3 in melee, +2 point blank = total mod of -2 and -3 DV
- stabbing shark with knife: -1 vision, -2 special underwater mod = total mod of -3, but only -1 DV

taking into account the statistics that 3 dice equal 1 hit and therefore a +1 to DV, it is still better to attack in melee then to throw a knife at a target in melee, you get one less dice to roll to actually hit the target, however when you hit you do 2 DV more damage, which is statistically as good as rolling 6 dice more.

Therefore I do not think that this needs rebalancing.

[Alchemyst]

Ah that makes a lot of sense, thanks Hellfire.

I guess I never thought of the DV penalties like that. I still think it should be easier to actually hit the target in melee but I'm happy enough with it to not change anything and now my players will be too I'm sure.

Thanks again

[All4BigGuns]

Why I'm at it I'll just tell my players not to use magic or anything like that because of how unrealistic it is.

Keep in mind on this that without some sort of geas or other form of limitation, spellcasters in SR do not require the use of 'mystic words' to cast a spell or even gestures really, though I'd imagine pointing or something could be useful in targetting. All this said, other than it being magic (and thus not 'realistic' anyway), what would be 'unrealistic' about casting underwater?

[valavaern]

what would be 'unrealistic' about casting underwater?

Well, I personally wouldn't use anything with fire or electricity damage~

[Operator]

what would be 'unrealistic' about casting underwater?

Well, I personally wouldn't use anything with fire or electricity damage~

Applying that logic, I would use any Blast damage spell in the water. Preferably not near myself, lest I become shark food.

[ArkangelWinter]

what would be 'unrealistic' about casting underwater?

Well, I personally wouldn't use anything with fire or electricity damage~

Fire would probably work, boiling its pathway and scalding the target to death. Electricity's trickier. Everything I found on Google says the all-direction spread of lightning after contacting salt water is around 20ft/6m before losing the strength to seriously hurt a human. So Lightning Bolt probably shouldnt be your go-to. Lightning ball or a storm-like spell might be Super-Effective.

[Alchemyst]

Why I'm at it I'll just tell my players not to use magic or anything like that because of how unrealistic it is.

Keep in mind on this that without some sort of geas or other form of limitation, spellcasters in SR do not require the use of 'mystic words' to cast a spell or even gestures really, though I'd imagine pointing or something could be useful in targetting. All this said, other than it being magic (and thus not 'realistic' anyway), what would be 'unrealistic' about casting underwater?

It was sarcasm in response to Reaver saying how I shouldn't allow bow or thrown weapons underwater because of how unrealistic it is., and to tell my player to demonstrate in the local river if he/she didn't agree. 

Also, this is getting really off topic now xD

[Kesslan]

I dunno personally I wouldn't really allow a traditional thrown weapon (short of a grenade) to have any effect and that's based simply on RL mechanics.

Bows would probably still work roughly about as well as a speargun that uses rubber bands etc (As opposed to gas propelled) as far as I know, though you'd have some power loss due to a larger friction area etc. Throwing weapons and bullets are extremely short ranged underwater before they loose all effectiveness. Explosives tend to have increased effect (Basically by the rules apply damping as an instant modifier at the source of the explosion). It's actually simpler to say: has no effect and cite RL than it is to come up with some custom house rule on the matter and then try to keep it balanced.

Citing the game as having magic isn't really much of an argument though as the rules that govern the use of magic are entirely unlike the rules that govern melee/ranged combat when it really boils down to it. Magic effectively works on it's own plane of existence same as the matrix.

[valavaern]

Upon looking them over, I've come to the conclusion that the rules for underwater combat are based on the same principle in Shadowrun as they are in Battletech: they don't exist to let you fight underwater, they exist to keep you from trying~

[Alchemyst]

In real life sure, but my players aren't playing 9-5 desk jockies hoping to beat rush hour traffic so they can sleep before doing it all over again with nothing interesting.
I'm all about keeping the game fun AND challenging. My group does this by following the pretty balanced rules already set in place. They're there for a reason. Yes we houserule sometimes and change things to make the campaign either more cinematic or more realistic, but overall stick to RAW because it works.

I believe Hellfire is spot on with his/her interpretation. Now, yes, I could tell my players simply, "NO!" just because it doesn't work in real life but why would I? The game isn't meant to put the players into real life, it's meant to take your imagination far away to a not so distant future dystopia. If the rules support it and represent it fairly well, I'd be an a**hole to say otherwise unless the players and I as a group decided we wanted an uber-realistic and gritty campaign (which is fine but not what this campaign is about.)

Also, whether RAW or not my group has always played that if the base damage is reduced to 0 by any modifier you can't attempt to attack. No matter how hard you throw a dust bunny, it's not going to hurt anyone. So with that said in SR4A in my book and with Hellfire's explanation, the average joe isn't going to be able to even attempt to throw a knife underwater, just simply flutters down. However, that cybered up navy seal is going to have a chance.

[farothel]

I wouldn't throw the knife, but come very close (murky waters help) and simply cut his throat, or the hoses of his scuba gear.  Having been a scuba diver myself for about 15 years now, I know that if you cut the air hoses and then empty the guy's trim jacket, he will go down very quickly.  the crabs and lobsters will do the rest.