[JustADude]

I don't think that would work quite as effectively as you think.  Based on SR4 rules, Shadowrunners can be in, grab what they need, and be out in a matter of minutes.  A 10 minute response time wouldn't result in much more than the HTR team saying "Hey!  Where did the bad guys go?"

That, of course, is only my opinion.

Which is, really, how it should work, unless they get pinned down. Just look at the real-world equivalent of Shadowrunners... a military commando unit. Guys like Navy SEALs are generally in, out, and gone before anyone knows what's hit them except for major SNAFUs.

[GiraffeShaman]

I envision more of a "mobile defense" strategy from corps when the costs go up. Unless its a hard site or VIP protection, I would imagine that most of the systems are really just tripwires and delays. Rather than keeping HTR teams on every building, and rigging it with poison vents, minefields, machinegun nests and spirits, set it with sensors, locks, the occasional drone, and minimal metahuman presence. 

Yes, exactly, over the years my games have developed this way, and not just for the corps. Rather than try to challenge the players with equal firepower or trying to scare them of with superior firepower/cyber/magic/etc, I make use of delay tactics and lots of scattered weak drones/npcs/spirits. Watcher Spirits are excellent for this. Many players are in the mindset of other games like D&D and the like, and they believe i only they can be tougher than the opposition, they'll slay them and get the treasure. But this is often not the case in SR, especially on the higher end runs. Much like the Grand Theft auto games, if you have killed a bunch of people and the cops know about it, and you just sit around shooting everyone in sight, eventually the stronger forces will arrive and geek your sorry hoop.

It's also a form of the ancient warfare tactic of using skirmishers to harass, delay, and pin down your enemy. Then you bring in the stronger forces like heavy infantry to really beat them down. If you've played the Total War games, then you know how this works. You can use weak yet quick skirmisher forces, like Watchers, drones, or even lame sec guards either to delay or to pin down and distract while a more powerful force comes up behind. Hammer and anvil ensues. Beware of TPKing the runner team though, if that is not your goal.

[Reaver]

I envision more of a "mobile defense" strategy from corps when the costs go up. Unless its a hard site or VIP protection, I would imagine that most of the systems are really just tripwires and delays. Rather than keeping HTR teams on every building, and rigging it with poison vents, minefields, machinegun nests and spirits, set it with sensors, locks, the occasional drone, and minimal metahuman presence. 

Yes, exactly, over the years my games have developed this way, and not just for the corps. Rather than try to challenge the players with equal firepower or trying to scare them of with superior firepower/cyber/magic/etc, I make use of delay tactics and lots of scattered weak drones/npcs/spirits. Watcher Spirits are excellent for this. Many players are in the mindset of other games like D&D and the like, and they believe i only they can be tougher than the opposition, they'll slay them and get the treasure. But this is often not the case in SR, especially on the higher end runs. Much like the Grand Theft auto games, if you have killed a bunch of people and the cops know about it, and you just sit around shooting everyone in sight, eventually the stronger forces will arrive and geek your sorry hoop.

It's also a form of the ancient warfare tactic of using skirmishers to harass, delay, and pin down your enemy. Then you bring in the stronger forces like heavy infantry to really beat them down. If you've played the Total War games, then you know how this works. You can use weak yet quick skirmisher forces, like Watchers, drones, or even lame sec guards either to delay or to pin down and distract while a more powerful force comes up behind. Hammer and anvil ensues. Beware of TPKing the runner team though, if that is not your goal.

Keep in mind the corp in question and the building. If the Corp ain't running their flag (logo) every 30cm of ground around the outside and every 90cm INSIDE, they don't have extra-territorality to fall back on.... So they can and will use KE to handle the mess (less costs for them) all they have to do is slow downt he runners. Falling secuirty gates are great for this, on top of every thing you mentioned.

If they ARE running their colors everywhere... well then, they can get away with a whole lot more. (like AZT policy of 'the suspect is libel for death and damage caused by security'! O_O!) now, it all depends on what is going on in that building. No need for $20 million security for a call center... but an ultra high reasearch lab? (and lets face it... only a FEW ppl would pay for a run against a call center)

Also, so Corps have a 'dead is not dead till we shoot it twice, hang it, throw it in a deep dark hole lined with mono-wire like a cheese grater. Then we set it on fire.' policy when it comes to unwanted attention of Runners (MCT and the Zero Zones)

In short runners, do you homework, bribe your way to the answers, and never EVER take a rush job that the Johnson opens with "I got this easy little run..."

[GiraffeShaman]

Few other delay tactics ideas: Ice sheet spells, smoke grenades, corp sprinkler systems or water cannons. If you want to get really wacky, start shifting the architecture and hallways D&D style. Make use of mazes in critical areas. Slower to get in and possibly out. Critical areas are farther into the center of the maze. (Where perhaps a Minotaur troll is waiting) Hidden floors that need a special code or the like to make the elevator stop at. Good looking company women who feign distress, perhaps being set upon by other company men, dressed up as thugs or rapists. How morale are the runners, will they help the damsel in distress? Trapdoors, again if you are going wlld. Add crocodiles and novascorpion mutants if you are really going nuts. Similar to gates, barricades, perhaps even the wall where there was formerly a door is now just a dead end. Caltrops.

Oh a real classic, a large pile of corporate script. Slows the runners down to gather. Perhaps scattered. Or perhaps some other "treasure" that is extremely valuable, but will delay the runners critical moments for the hardcases to arrive and clean house.

[JustADude]

Few other delay tactics ideas: Ice sheet spells, smoke grenades, corp sprinkler systems or water cannons. If you want to get really wacky, start shifting the architecture and hallways D&D style. Make use of mazes in critical areas. Slower to get in and possibly out. Critical areas are farther into the center of the maze. (Where perhaps a Minotaur troll is waiting) Hidden floors that need a special code or the like to make the elevator stop at. Good looking company women who feign distress, perhaps being set upon by other company men, dressed up as thugs or rapists. How morale are the runners, will they help the damsel in distress? Trapdoors, again if you are going wlld. Add crocodiles and novascorpion mutants if you are really going nuts. Similar to gates, barricades, perhaps even the wall where there was formerly a door is now just a dead end. Caltrops.

Oh a real classic, a large pile of corporate script. Slows the runners down to gather. Perhaps scattered. Or perhaps some other "treasure" that is extremely valuable, but will delay the runners critical moments for the hardcases to arrive and clean house.

How about a stack of gold bars laced with tracking devices that only start transmitting after they leave the building? Big and heavy on top of being valuable. Basically a monkey trap.

Nevermind, knowing players they'd probably find the trackers and disable them, and have a Spirit or Drone carry them, then you're just out a couple hundred kg of gold.

[GloriousRuse]

Well, re: "where'd they go", thats not a bad thing if they players did it right. Also, the time it takes to actual traverse somewhere is oft forgotten, as well as the actual working with the macguffin or what not.

Real Life example: a direct action team in a western country decided to cooperate with  civil authorities during a recent terrorism drill. They were supposed to test a nuclear plant's defenses. They had to get through a chain link fence with wire on it, cross the open ground, enter the building, find the control room, and then simulate starting a meltdown.

Suffice to say that they had made it to the control room and set the simulated charges to blow the doors open in about 120 seconds. Most people couldn't have sprinted the distance involved in 120 seconds without things like fences in the way. It wasn't the breaching the fence, or entering the doors, or "killing" the guards, or slapping down the charges that slowed these guys down the most - it was just covering the distance.  Actually "starting the meltdown" took a bit longer

Suffice to say, if said highly prestigious direct action team took two minutes to breach a real site, there's no reason shadowrunners should get a free pass on running through a corporate office. I'm pretty sure 25m per turn does not apply to "straight up the stairs for 15 stories" at least not without some serious athletics tests.

Finally: even if they get out, so long as you have surveillance tag on them leaving, as corp sec you've got until the meet with the johnson to figure out an answer. Be that 30 minutes or 3 days, its all the time in the world to drop the hammer, or let the KE/Star do it for you.

[Glorthoron]

Well, re: "where'd they go", thats not a bad thing if they players did it right. Also, the time it takes to actual traverse somewhere is oft forgotten, as well as the actual working with the macguffin or what not.

Real Life example: a direct action team in a western country decided to cooperate with  civil authorities during a recent terrorism drill. They were supposed to test a nuclear plant's defenses. They had to get through a chain link fence with wire on it, cross the open ground, enter the building, find the control room, and then simulate starting a meltdown.

Suffice to say that they had made it to the control room and set the simulated charges to blow the doors open in about 120 seconds. Most people couldn't have sprinted the distance involved in 120 seconds without things like fences in the way. It wasn't the breaching the fence, or entering the doors, or "killing" the guards, or slapping down the charges that slowed these guys down the most - it was just covering the distance.  Actually "starting the meltdown" took a bit longer

Suffice to say, if said highly prestigious direct action team took two minutes to breach a real site, there's no reason shadowrunners should get a free pass on running through a corporate office. I'm pretty sure 25m per turn does not apply to "straight up the stairs for 15 stories" at least not without some serious athletics tests.

Finally: even if they get out, so long as you have surveillance tag on them leaving, as corp sec you've got until the meet with the johnson to figure out an answer. Be that 30 minutes or 3 days, its all the time in the world to drop the hammer, or let the KE/Star do it for you.

Not sure what nuclear plant that was at, but at the one that I work at, there's no way that could happen.  120 yards from outside fence to the plant?  Try 1000 yards (if not more, depending on the direction you are coming from).  Then there's a secondary line of security directly around the plant itself, which includes more fences and more guards.  And the security at the plant is probably better than the direct action team.  These guys go to competition which includes navy seals and special forces and they almost always come out on top.

Now, of course, this is a Nuclear facility, not the main facility of a small corporation.  The level of security you would expect here is much greater.

Also, fail safe settings in a nuclear plant would prevent a melt down should explosives be set off in the control room.  Loss of power would result, and the reactor would be shut down, which takes less than a minute.  I should note that I'm speaking only of CANDU reactors.  Others in the world, I cannot speak for.

[Wakshaani]

Fun TV show about this kind of operation, by the by: SPecial Ops Mission, starring Wil Willis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epRq7pOrFLo

Great stuff, but a too-short braodcast run.

[GloriousRuse]

It was in Scotland, and it was about 200 meters from the staff parking lot (ish). 120 seconds. Now mind, there was a good bit of crawling undetected before hand for a few hours through a perimeter like the one you described.... but from "well crap, no way to avoid detection now" to "everyone in the control room is dead" was 2 minutes. Which is the relam were talking about corp sec having time to recat in.

[GiraffeShaman]

Suffice to say, if said highly prestigious direct action team took two minutes to breach a real site, there's no reason shadowrunners should get a free pass on running through a corporate office. I'm pretty sure 25m per turn does not apply to "straight up the stairs for 15 stories" at least not without some serious athletics tests.

Good one, I'm gonna use that. Funny too, the runners collapsing from exhaustion, with no sign of the stairs ending. You could have the Shadowrunner's car parked in some massive garage and do a SR version of the Seinfeld episode where they can't find the car.

Does anyone have any ideas to detect characters who are both invisible and silent spelled? (Silent and the like defeats ultrasound goggles, etc. And ultrasound is what defeats invisibility) I primarily want the ability to make chokepoints difficult to just sneak by invisible. It used to be possible with ultrasound, but we finally figured out that indirect sound illusions defeat ultrasound. I guess large amounts of guards milling about might work but that may be a bit unrealistic.

[GloriousRuse]

MM wave radar.

[Reaver]

Suffice to say, if said highly prestigious direct action team took two minutes to breach a real site, there's no reason shadowrunners should get a free pass on running through a corporate office. I'm pretty sure 25m per turn does not apply to "straight up the stairs for 15 stories" at least not without some serious athletics tests.

Good one, I'm gonna use that. Funny too, the runners collapsing from exhaustion, with no sign of the stairs ending. You could have the Shadowrunner's car parked in some massive garage and do a SR version of the Seinfeld episode where they can't find the car.

Does anyone have any ideas to detect characters who are both invisible and silent spelled? (Silent and the like defeats ultrasound goggles, etc. And ultrasound is what defeats invisibility) I primarily want the ability to make chokepoints difficult to just sneak by invisible. It used to be possible with ultrasound, but we finally figured out that indirect sound illusions defeat ultrasound. I guess large amounts of guards milling about might work but that may be a bit unrealistic.

depending on how you want silence to work, by description, it dampens the sound waves that enter the area thus giving a bonus to defend against sonic attacks. this dampening also "defeats" sonic sensors..... but "how" is the question  IF you rule is creates a "blank" spot = to the force of the spell, an alert monitor operator might be interested in the moving blank spot through a sensor that was working fine a minute ago and send someone to investigate.

[All4BigGuns]

Best bet in my opinion is to let it "work" since that's just good preparation for the infiltration. If no plan or prep ever works then it just leads to frustration then irritation and finally leaving the group if it gets bad enough.

[Wakshaani]

Does anyone have any ideas to detect characters who are both invisible and silent spelled? (Silent and the like defeats ultrasound goggles, etc. And ultrasound is what defeats invisibility) I primarily want the ability to make chokepoints difficult to just sneak by invisible. It used to be possible with ultrasound, but we finally figured out that indirect sound illusions defeat ultrasound. I guess large amounts of guards milling about might work but that may be a bit unrealistic.

When technology stumbles, go old school.

Get a dog. (Or a Hellhound, really.)

Nose 2.0 tends to pop up quick, and hwen they can't SEE what they smell, there'll be a lot of barking and snurfling around that'll raise suspicions. Use RARELY, of course, but never forget that mankind loooves having animals around. They're useful!

[Lethe]

Easiest way to detect a magical infiltration is an astral guard. If magic is not available then GloMoss /GloWand based magic detectors at every door will be enough.