[Longshot23]

Genuine question:  how come there aren't rules covering creating spells when they're needed?  Like when the crap hits the fan?

Is the absence meant to reflect what's possible at the current mana (and understanding such) level?

[raggedhalo]

My understanding is that improvising spells just isn't possible - writing spell formulae takes a matter of weeks, and learning from them takes days.

[Longshot23]

I was about to edit my post when yours came through.  oh well.

From your statement/understanding, it reads as a game balance issue.  Yes?

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

Largely game balance, yes.  There are enough complaints about magicians being overpowered as it is, let alone if magicians didn't have to pay to learn spells.

Fluff-wise, pretty much the only spell you cast on the fly is your first spell--the one where you've just found out you have the talent.  After that, you have to train to use your talent.  That's reflected in the mechanics by having to pay to raise your Magic score and then having to buy skills and spells.

If you want to allow improvisational (on-the-fly) casting in your game, I'd make a few suggestions.

• Cap the improvised spell's Force at no higher than either Spellcasting skill or Magic rating (and perhaps even the lower of the two).
• Double (or even triple) the drain code for improvising; you're stressing your abilities in ways you haven't quite trained before.
• Try to confine it to spells that already exist--or perhaps slight variations--using the spell design rules in the middle of a fight is a sure way to slow down the game.
• Alternatively, you might make the improv magician fuel such a casting either by spending (not burning) a point of Edge or even by spending a point of Karma (which might be devoted toward the cost of learning the spell).
• You could also reflect the difficulty of improv casting by forcing a double casting for the improvised spell to function.  Essentially, use the rules for multi-casting (split dice pool, extra drain), but both castings have the same target and count as a single spell with the lower number of Spellcasting hits.

Be careful doing this, though.  There balance of the game is pretty delicate (and varies by table and GM), and improv casting could throw off game balance pretty easily.

[raggedhalo]

From your statement/understanding, it reads as a game balance issue.  Yes?

It's also a setting thing, I think - spellcasting is structured and stable, even for the more "instinctive" traditions like shamanism.  Being able to pull new magic out of your hoop mid-run completely screws with that notion, and would represent a serious boost in power level.  So yeah, I think there isn't enough mana in the world yet - I don't know my Earthdawn rules that well, but wikipedia talks about swapping spells into and out of matrices on the fly, which seems like a plausible very-high-mana-level thing to be doing.

[Sichr]

Largely game balance, yes.  There are enough complaints about magicians being overpowered as it is, let alone if magicians didn't have to pay to learn spells.

Fluff-wise, pretty much the only spell you cast on the fly is your first spell--the one where you've just found out you have the talent.  After that, you have to train to use your talent.  That's reflected in the mechanics by having to pay to raise your Magic score and then having to buy skills and spells.

If you want to allow improvisational (on-the-fly) casting in your game, I'd make a few suggestions.

• Cap the improvised spell's Force at no higher than either Spellcasting skill or Magic rating (and perhaps even the lower of the two).
• Double (or even triple) the drain code for improvising; you're stressing your abilities in ways you haven't quite trained before.
• Try to confine it to spells that already exist--or perhaps slight variations--using the spell design rules in the middle of a fight is a sure way to slow down the game.
• Alternatively, you might make the improv magician fuel such a casting either by spending (not burning) a point of Edge or even by spending a point of Karma (which might be devoted toward the cost of learning the spell).
• You could also reflect the difficulty of improv casting by forcing a double casting for the improvised spell to function.  Essentially, use the rules for multi-casting (split dice pool, extra drain), but both castings have the same target and count as a single spell with the lower number of Spellcasting hits.

Be careful doing this, though.  There balance of the game is pretty delicate (and varies by table and GM), and improv casting could throw off game balance pretty easily.

Just a few ideas:

1) Use Spelldesign knowledge for cap instead of spellcasting
2) treat every improvised spell as an overcast

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

From your statement/understanding, it reads as a game balance issue.  Yes?

It's also a setting thing, I think - spellcasting is structured and stable, even for the more "instinctive" traditions like shamanism.  Being able to pull new magic out of your hoop mid-run completely screws with that notion, and would represent a serious boost in power level.  So yeah, I think there isn't enough mana in the world yet - I don't know my Earthdawn rules that well, but wikipedia talks about swapping spells into and out of matrices on the fly, which seems like a plausible very-high-mana-level thing to be doing.

The flip side of a higher mana level, though, is that pretty much all SR spellcasting is what Earthdawn calls raw casting, essentially channeling raw mana through yourself.  The mana level is low enough in SR that the only major consequence is drain, but in higher mana levels...

This assumes, of course, that Earthdawn and Shadowrun take place on the same planet...which many old-school fans know to be true but from which the corp distances itself for IP reasons.   

[Blue_Lion]

Part of the reason there are no rules is that spells cost karma to lern (or BP).  In 4th ed all karma expendures to improve take time. The treat spells simure to learning a skill.

[TheNarrator]

I don't know my Earthdawn rules that well, but wikipedia talks about swapping spells into and out of matrices on the fly, which seems like a plausible very-high-mana-level thing to be doing.

Swapping what spell is in a spell matrix in ED is changing what spells you have ready to go on a moment's notice, rather than what spells you know. (As I understand it. I'm playing a Swordmaster, not a spellcaster.)

A spell matrix from ED is basically the Filtering metamagic from SR: it filters the tainted mana so you can use it safely. (The astral is extremely polluted in ED, because the Horrors passed through recently. Think massive background count, worldwide.) Casting raw magic like SR spellcasters do in Earthdawn would be fatal in short order: aside from the dangers of the corrupted astral, it also draws every Horror in the vicinity like blood in the water. (Except that sharks only eat your body, not your soul.)

Learning a new spell in ED generally involved either somebody letting you copy the spell formula from their Grimoire into theirs, or letting you analyze the spell astrally as they cast it and then reverse engineer the formula and write it into your Grimoire. Either way, it was not a quick process, and you had to pay Legend Points (the ED equivalent of experience points) as well.



Similarly, in SR you either need to buy the spell formula or be taught the spell by some other means, and you need to pay Karma. You can create new spells (rules are in Street Magic), but it's like designing a new piece of equipment or software: lots of planning and hard work is required to draw up the formula. Learning a new spell is just not an on-the-fly thing in most circumstances.