[lurkeroutthere]

Slightly off topic, am I the only one who fears the edge uncapping hits rule skews the game even more heavily in Mages favor? It just seems too easy to mechanically abuse.

[Zilfer]

Again only if you are allowing edge to be refreshed very often. Generally mage's will keep their edge for times when they REALLY need it to resist some serious drain, throw a very powerful spell (then probably another edge to help with drain), cast a spell unnoticed at F1(my mage does this if i need to kill someone without anyone noticing. Force 1 lightning ball xD), or trying to stay alive because they are being shot at. <.< generally not going to happen more than once a gaming session that they'll do this unless they have 6 edge like my character does.

[lurkeroutthere]

You've just succinctly made my point.

[Mirikon]

Not really, Lurker. Unless you allow edge to be refreshed very quickly, or the mage has obscene amounts of it, then it never comes up. And since mages bleed BP/karma like you wouldn't believe, if they've gotten to the 'obscene Edge' status, then they've probably left significant holes elsewhere that can be exploited.

[TheNarrator]

...cast a spell unnoticed at F1(my mage does this if i need to kill someone without anyone noticing. Force 1 lightning ball xD)

Eh? How does does a Force 1 spell kill anyone? Since you can only add a maximum of one hit, it could only do 2 DV of damage.

[lurkeroutthere]

Edge on the spell casting test bypasses the force cap. So as long as you have edge you can cast effectively zero drain force 1 spells. Mirikon they don't bleed BP and Karma faster then anyone else and their ROI for those "bleeds" is extremely high.

[Falconer]

Lurker... all I have to say is you don't know what you're talking about if you think that's broken.  And if it is... then your problem is the GM refreshing edge too often.

Since you don't seem to realize this and get hung up on this... the reason for casting at force 1 IS NOT FOR DRAIN's SAKE.  I could just as easily edge the drain soak roll instead while enjoying all the secondary benefits of higher force!!!!  (many spells have force dependent parameters like levitate where force directly works into the speed at which you can move things).

The reason you do it is to cast a spell once in a blue moon without it being bloody obvious you're doing so.  Under 3e it used to be the TN for the perception check was 4 + your magic - your force.  (IE: low force castings were very hard to notice).   Now the threshold for noticing magic is always 6-force.   So the only way to pull off a spell without a high chance of others noticing is to resort to force 1 then edge to get the 2-4 successes you'll generally need to make the spell effective.



TheNarrator:
Did you even read the thread?  Let alone the title!

You know about the rule in SR4a which allows you to spend edge to exceed the limitation of force on usable successes?

You know sorta like how sams never worry about force but always use all of them.. so that's OH so broken.... if a mage can use edge once in a blue moon to pull off.

Anyhow, I could see how a force 1 firebolt could manage to off someone...  (firebolt... force 1, if they don't notice surprise may apply so no reaction to dodge,   called shot eyeball (-4dice/+4DV)....   so now we're up to 5DV... if we can manage 6-7 successes edged... soaked with body only... maybe just marginally enough to kill someone (or maybe just hurt them severely and set them on fire .

Though a combat spell is a very poor pick.  It would more likely take the form of a jedi mind trick type spell like a force 1 influence.  (go outside and talk to the troll with the combat axe in the back alley).

[Mirikon]

I'm sorry, Lurker, but there you're wrong. The only other group that comes close to the bleed for mages would be technomancers. Other types depend more on nuyen and essence. A mage depends mainly on BP/Karma to advance. All those spells? Need BP/karma to learn them. Foci? Need BP/karma to bind them. Spirits? Need BP/Karma to bind them. Initiation? Need Karma to do it. Ally spirits? TONS of karma. Quickened/Anchored spells? More karma. All of this on top of the normal karma concerns of raising skills and abilities.

Street samurais, covert ops, hackers, riggers, and the like? The karma is nice, since they can up a skill or ability with it, but they mainly need nuyen for new gear, new ware, new drones, badder programs, etc.

[lurkeroutthere]

And all those people get to play in their niche and the mage gets to rewrite reality to their needs. Every expendature of Karma for a mage can grant them a new capability. Just because they have more "options" for said Karma doesn't actually translate that their Karma costs are higher. They don't HAVE to get an ally spirit, they don't have Anchor spells. Spirits don't cost them any Karma unless they are permanently tasking them. Until then it's a skill just like automotive mechanic or blades, except better because, you know it summons spirits.

Every character will need to expend Karma to raise their skills and Attributes, Mages are no different in that regard, they have on extra stat that mundanes do not and some magic related skills of which spellcasting is the only one directly required to being a mage (although any mage without spell defense or the ability to summon spirits is severely hampering themselves) at that point their only mandatory karma expenditure is new spells, which each one will grant them new capabilities. If your a mage who is comfortable with your starting spells and not much more then really you only have your magic attribute (presuming you didn't hard max) and your mage related skills (again presuming not hard max at character generation) or you can eschew improving those and get better at exactly the same pace karma wise as others do.

The truth of the matter is none of the jobs in shadowrun advance without Karma. Sure a sam might cram more ware into his body, but that is seldom actually adding new capabilities, and more often then not improving existing perfromance (until you've opened a big enough hole to fill with entirely new gear). Mages do have ways they can dump karma, but in exchange they get new capabilities for them, and they are all optional.

[Mirikon]

Lurker, all I can say is that you're wrong. I'd go on to explain the ways in which you're wrong, but as I've seen from the other thread, you don't like hearing you're wrong that much, so all I'll say is that mundanes advance mostly through nuyen (bigger gun, better program, etc.) while mages advance almost entirely through karma (spells, spirits, etc.). You can argue the point if you like, but I have a feeling that most, if not all, of the people on the forum will say you're wrong, and I just don't feel like putting the energy into another pointless discussion right now, so I'm washing my hands of it.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

The whole Force 1 + Edge thing might be a little cheesy, but I don't think it's necessarily imbalanced by itself.

The part that's imbalanced is the same problem you're going to have on the matrix side.  If the runners have magic and the opposition doesn't, that's what's going to rule the day.  (Just like if the runners have the only hacker in town.)  I won't speak to the home tables of GMs here, but a lot of Missions scenarios don't have a lot of magical support for the opposition, let alone enemy initiates (beyond the major contacts).  A magician who's counting on Edge hits to bump up a Force 1 spell (base DV = 1) to take someone out is going to have a really bad day if that target's buddy is counterspelling for him, especially when that spell is detected because the guy survived the hit (and then the target always knows he was targeted) and/or his buddy (or his spirits) is assensing.

Runners win by bringing their strengths to bear against enemy weaknesses.  If the enemy is weak against magic, don't be surprised when the magician pwns.  But magic feels consistently overpowered only if the enemies are consistently weak against magic.

It's just like every group bringing a Tacnet to the table because there's so rarely a downside to not keeping comm silence and because there are so rarely credible matrix threats to the runners' network.

[Zilfer]

I totally agree with what Mirikon is saying, my current mage is behind on Karma for the Foci he does have. While mages "sometimes" get new abilities for their Karma sometimes it only improves their dice pool. When a Street sam buys new ware what do you mean he hasn't gained a new ability? Installing most Cyber/Bioware will give you something new unless your just upgrading old ware. xD Then they can get all sorts of equipment that allows them to do things, from new guns to new toys to jammers to fully automatic Panther Assault cannons.

[lurkeroutthere]

Here's the thing, there is nothing about a mage that means they can't used equipment based abilities. Cyber and Bio has the essence problem sure, but gear is just as viable for a mage to advance themselves with as a mundane but It is very hard to convince people their not persecuted so I will leave it be.

[_Pax_]

There is very very little a Mage can buy with Nuyen, and never has to spend Karma on, that improves their ability to be mages.

Whereas a rigger can always buy newer and better drones, a hacker can always upgrade their commlink and software suite, etc.