[Moral Wiz]

Erm... Hacking a civvy's commlink is definetly possible; Identity Theft came up in Unwired, and was described as pretty easy for short term stuff. They don't go into the logistics of something like this, but getting access to a SiN and using it remotely through the Matrix as a form of ID is definetly shown as possible

So, IMO, the question shifts from 'if' to 'how'. For instance, if you have your fake doc lined up, and ready to give their report as soon as you have the original SIN, then the crime can happen at the speed of a Matrix connection. Faster than anyone could run to KE.

[JustADude]

Erm... Hacking a civvy's commlink is definetly possible; Identity Theft came up in Unwired, and was described as pretty easy for short term stuff. They don't go into the logistics of something like this, but getting access to a SiN and using it remotely through the Matrix as a form of ID is definetly shown as possible

So, IMO, the question shifts from 'if' to 'how'. For instance, if you have your fake doc lined up, and ready to give their report as soon as you have the original SIN, then the crime can happen at the speed of a Matrix connection. Faster than anyone could run to KE.

Notice "short term stuff". Eventually you're gonna get found out and burned once the person sees the anomalous activity. It's a pain to fix, yeah, but so is modern Identity Theft. Doesn't mean you're perma-screwed.

Besides, they're not going to just instantly toss all the previous records of the SINner's "old" DNA, just like they keep a record pointing back to your Birth Name after you've legally changed it... and that's not even counting the metric ass-ton of other data that would need to be changed in GOD-only-knows how many other databases to "lock out" the original SINner.

Plus, c'mon, cops aren't stupid. If someone shows up reporting that they've been mugged and their ID stolen right after such a change is filed they're gonna smell a rat and check the archives for the "original" DNA and compare it, plus retinal patterns, fingerprints, known scars and medical conditions, and a bunch of other info that would be on file for any law-abiding SINner.

The only way "stealing" a SIN works is if the original owner is permanently unable to complain... permanently. And, yes, that means killing them, which doesn't work for the topic at hand.

EDIT: Also, there's zero possibility of a a Non-Metahuman Sapient being be able to make their DNA look like a Metahuman's, so any street-doc filing a Naga-to-Troll Genetic Adjustment is going to have some serious credibility issues the instant anyone looks at the form.

[Moral Wiz]

Hmm... Ok, all true. Especially the records; that's going to be the flaw here.

Still, given how easy genesurgury is, it's just as possible the person coming in complaining is trying to screw the existing person out of their SIN, or just cause problems for them, isn't it? I mean, they can't prove they are who they say they are, and whilst it's a bit suspicious, without a corp's backing (and it not even being a UCAS citizen) it's not going to be a top priority for glory hunger KE, is it?.

Alt point, if the surgery leaves the new SiNer with the same DNA as the original, and they just take control of the SIN, it becomes a SINless person coming in and accusing a legal citizen of crimes with no proof. Are KE going to bother looking into something like that? Keeping the original out of the picture is harder that way, but still doable, I think, with prep-work

@edit; *nods* True, but think the other way around. If a sapient wants a fake ID, it's going to take more work, as they're unusual, correct? (and thus, those involved can charge a premium rate )

[CitizenJoe]

To accomplish your goal, your character needs to have been scammed.  So, let's assume that she starts in a country that doesn't issue SINs to paranormals.  She gets offered a job and a SIN at what she thinks is a reputable corporation in Seattle.  When she gets there, it was all just a con job and now she's out of her home turf and stuck in a foreign land without a SIN.  She could work for the people that brought her over, basically as slave labor, or she could try to make it on her own SINless with no contacts.  Best case scenario, she gets deported.  But because her homeland doesn't want paranormals, possibly hunted like in Quebec, they aren't taking her back.  With no SIN there's no proof as to who she is there anyway.

[Moral Wiz]

Possible, plausible, but not the character I was aiming at. I had her down as a prior respectable citizen. The whole 'people smuggling' thing kinda prohibits a character with formal education or training of any stripe, which limits my options. It's not the same angle.

Besides, I'm honestly curious as to how this'd work. With this level of tech, and a bit more flexibility than works for my character's background (IE, killing the victim) it wouldn't be too hard to replace anyone, given time and prepwork.

[CitizenJoe]

The problem is that the SIN is stored in a database somewhere out there in the matrix.  Your credstick just has a number (and some additional info) on it.  For your SIN... Your actual SIN, to be stolen, all of the information attached to that number needs to get attached to a different number (or simply erased).  Then the SIN number gets pointed to an empty database.  Or more simply, the identifying characteristics of the SIN needs to be changed to someone else.  So access the security section of the SIN registry and change password, thumb print, picture, etc.  Then your hapless paranormal can show off her SIN number all she wants, according to the database, it isn't her.  The most likely culprit is another SINless paranormal of the same type that needed a fake SIN and stole her entire identity right from the database.

[jonathanc]

Yes, No commlink no money unless you happen to have some cash on you which the mugger(s) didn't take for some reason.

The more I think about it the scarier it gets, your entire life on something about the size of a smartphone. Your car, your apartment, you ID, all your information, and your most reliable way of getting help, gone all of it, just like that.

Without that little magic box you basically don't exist. If and when you finally get to help they laugh at you and call you a liar because "you" are in a McHugh's and just ordered a number 8.

There's a novel by Syne Mitchell called Technogenesis where the protagonist's personal data thingy breaks and she has to live completely invisible to society. She can't even board a bus without problems.

[Moral Wiz]

The problem is that the SIN is stored in a database somewhere out there in the matrix.  Your credstick just has a number (and some additional info) on it.  For your SIN... Your actual SIN, to be stolen, all of the information attached to that number needs to get attached to a different number (or simply erased).  Then the SIN number gets pointed to an empty database.  Or more simply, the identifying characteristics of the SIN needs to be changed to someone else.  So access the security section of the SIN registry and change password, thumb print, picture, etc.  Then your hapless paranormal can show off her SIN number all she wants, according to the database, it isn't her.  The most likely culprit is another SINless paranormal of the same type that needed a fake SIN and stole her entire identity right from the database.

*nods* Exactly. Shift the identifying stuff, or simply steel the commlink the SiN's kept on, and you pretty much have it.  Say, with someone who has been working in advance to ensure they match your genetic description. I'm just saying you don't need to access the security system to change the issue, if you can do things legitimately. The DNA of a SINer and SINless match? The one currently with the SIN is probably real, and KE doesn't have to waste resources following every SINless SoBs requests, do they?

[CitizenJoe]

The problem is that the SIN is stored in a database somewhere out there in the matrix.  Your credstick just has a number (and some additional info) on it.  For your SIN... Your actual SIN, to be stolen, all of the information attached to that number needs to get attached to a different number (or simply erased).  Then the SIN number gets pointed to an empty database.  Or more simply, the identifying characteristics of the SIN needs to be changed to someone else.  So access the security section of the SIN registry and change password, thumb print, picture, etc.  Then your hapless paranormal can show off her SIN number all she wants, according to the database, it isn't her.  The most likely culprit is another SINless paranormal of the same type that needed a fake SIN and stole her entire identity right from the database.

*nods* Exactly. Shift the identifying stuff, or simply steel the commlink the SiN's kept on, and you pretty much have it.  Say, with someone who has been working in advance to ensure they match your genetic description. I'm just saying you don't need to access the security system to change the issue, if you can do things legitimately. The DNA of a SINer and SINless match? The one currently with the SIN is probably real, and KE doesn't have to waste resources following every SINless SoBs requests, do they?

No, this isn't enough.  The commlink is going to have your public display stuff accessible.  Then it needs to get hacked for more information.  With that, you have to get into the SIN registry and change the database information.  DNA maps aren't likely to be standard, although there would be a option/slot/field/link etc for such security measures.  Note that whoever is doing this needs to hack the SIN registry... This is not a simple thing.  If it were, SINs would be entirely meaningless.  A password change might be relatively easy if you have the password in the first place.  Thumb print changes can be done if you can prove your ID somehow and then demonstrate that your print changed, i.e. replaced a limb.  Same with retinal scans and voice prints.  Whoever is doing it needs to prove that they are you without your access codes, etc. This isn't a simple mugging, it is a very advanced network with friends in high places that can do this. 

Easy way to do this.  Take the erased quality.  Someone is out there actively erasing any progress you make to getting your ID back.

[Moral Wiz]

*nods* Exactly. Shift the identifying stuff, or simply steel the commlink the SiN's kept on, and you pretty much have it.  Say, with someone who has been working in advance to ensure they match your genetic description. I'm just saying you don't need to access the security system to change the issue, if you can do things legitimately. The DNA of a SINer and SINless match? The one currently with the SIN is probably real, and KE doesn't have to waste resources following every SINless SoBs requests, do they?

No, this isn't enough.  The commlink is going to have your public display stuff accessible.  Then it needs to get hacked for more information.  With that, you have to get into the SIN registry and change the database information.  DNA maps aren't likely to be standard, although there would be a option/slot/field/link etc for such security measures.  Note that whoever is doing this needs to hack the SIN registry... This is not a simple thing.  If it were, SINs would be entirely meaningless.  A password change might be relatively easy if you have the password in the first place.  Thumb print changes can be done if you can prove your ID somehow and then demonstrate that your print changed, i.e. replaced a limb.  Same with retinal scans and voice prints.  Whoever is doing it needs to prove that they are you without your access codes, etc. This isn't a simple mugging, it is a very advanced network with friends in high places that can do this. 

Easy way to do this.  Take the erased quality.  Someone is out there actively erasing any progress you make to getting your ID back.

*nods* We agree that this isn't an easy op, but I still disagree about the amount of hacking needed to pull this off. DNA is standard in a SIN, according to Unwired, as is retinal info ect. But pretty much every ID point can be changed legally through augmentation. After doing so, the doctors have to update the SIN to reflect what you look like now, which means an addendum added to the overall file. That doesn't require you to hack anything, that's legal. And there's enough identifying stuff in the basic SIN to give you bank account access, I think it's fair to say there's enough to authorize such an addendum, and thus leave the person who originally had the SIN out of luck. ,After all,  they can't prove anything, and you've got better things to do. They're probably a Shadowrunner working on some convoluted infiltration plan, discrediting a respectable member of society.

There are two ways you could take it. Have the surgury to match up with a known individual, then snatch the SIN, without filing anything. They've got the identifier, you don't (thanks to having no commlink) and are screwed (It's got an alphanumeric baseline, but not all the infomation on a SIN is the number, it's shown to be a more comprehensive ID)

Alternately you could avoid the sugary and claim to have had it to make you look as you are now. A bit riskier, could attract suspicions if KE bothers to investigate, but odds on they won't unless they've got a good reason to. The person doesn't have power or corp ties? There's no evidence beyond the testimony of a SINless? Plus how did they have all this in place so quickly? It'd take a pretty virtuous Knight to investigate just because someone pleeds that they're telling the truth.

(BTW, disagreement or no, thanks for the suggestion @Erased. I appreciate that, and it's viable, but I'm still thinking this baseline's doable.

[CitizenJoe]

Let me tell you something.  EVERY SINner considers SIN theft a major crime.  It is the entire basis of their existence.  That Knight is going to track that down hard, not for you, but because the next target could be him.  And if it goes beyond someone snagging your password and bank account, that's going to bring in the Feds. 

Yes, the biometrics can be changed.  This is not a quick switch thing.  This is application for change, review by board, sign off by authorized agents, repeated verification by agents after the fact.  Expect the legal end processing to take on the order of months, which is fine, because you need time in bed to recover from the operation anyway.  That isn't really the hard part.  The hard part is justifying not killing you to prevent it from being reported.

[Moral Wiz]

Eh. If it was a human, perhaps. A local, possibly. But every drunken elven hobo rambles about how they've got a SIN really, about how it was those evil Humanis types with their Dragon sponsors who took it all away from them. All a massive conspiracy!

Those who don't act rationally are easy to dismiss. I'm not sure they'd even bother to check unless the request was stated rationally and calmly. We're getting to a point where we're gauging vague things instead of systems, but yeah... I don't agree with you on how people think. A good natured, thoughtful, insightful Knight, sure, they'll take that stance. But your average joe wants peace, quiet contentment. They don't think 'that bum could be me' because they've got prospects, they're well liked. Things aren't going to go wrong for them.

The issue of killing or not killing is a separate one, though related. If it's easier to steal your commlink rather than kill you, isn't that the path most groups'll go down? Especially with less than tech savvy sapients... The difficulty comes in the fact that they will report it to Knight Errant... but if you do it right, and the changes are more on line with my thoughts, it's something that can be done to entirely cut you out of the system. By the time the victim reaches Knight Errant (hard to do without a commlink ) they're likely to be less than rational, and that won't help them put their case

[JustADude]

The issue of killing or not killing is a separate one, though related. If it's easier to steal your commlink rather than kill you, isn't that the path most groups'll go down? Especially with less than tech savvy sapients... The difficulty comes in the fact that they will report it to Knight Errant... but if you do it right, and the changes are more on line with my thoughts, it's something that can be done to entirely cut you out of the system. By the time the victim reaches Knight Errant (hard to do without a commlink ) they're likely to be less than rational, and that won't help them put their case

I've hung around plenty of cops and plenty of crooks over the years and no, not really. The kinds that are going to screw someone over that hard, without lube, aren't going to bat an eye at disposing of a major, inevitable complication like the real owner of the SIN still being alive. Compared to some of the vicious stuff they do, for less profit than the RL equivalent of what a Rating 6 Fake SIN would bring, it's not even going to register.

You also have the issue that, as has been stated, there are already rules for creating fake SIN which would apply to this situation. It takes weeks if not months to rework a SIN. The base threshold is Rating x 32, and you get one roll per in-game week. Even cutting the threshold in half for starting with a "similar" stolen SIN getting to a Rating 1 level of faking the SIN would take 16 hits rolling at 1-week intervals. Even a super-ace Hacker using Rating 10 programs is probably going to take two of three weeks, and the guys with that kind of skill and hardware can get more money for less work doing other things. So figure a month to two months, minimum, before there's even a chance for the altered papers to hold water.

During that time, all the NMS has to do is go up to a KE police station, claim their commlink was stolen, and recite their SIN verbally. It doesn't take "tech savvy" to memorize a number; most people I know have their SSNs memorized, and a good portion have the DLNs memorized as well. Even the most skeptical of police officers is going to at least run the severely agitated person's ID and biometrics before they dismiss the guy, if only to check them for Wants and Warrants. Yes, even for Non-Metahumans. Since, if they're alive, that's going to take less than a week (let alone two months) that means the hacker hasn't had nearly enough time to even begin reworking the SIN.

[Moral Wiz]

I've hung around plenty of cops and plenty of crooks over the years and no, not really. The kinds that are going to screw someone over that hard, without lube, aren't going to bat an eye at disposing of a major, inevitable complication like the real owner of the SIN still being alive. Compared to some of the vicious stuff they do for less profit, it's not even going to register.

I'm not talking conscience, I'm talking 'worth a fight'. I'm going with a pixie, but I'd say this works for a wider group. Why get into a fight with someone capable of posing a risk to you when you can just snatch the commlink? You don't need to employ muscle, or lure them away from civilization. Hells, if they're really good, the user might not notice (I doubt AR Glasses users are always wearing them, the broadcasting commlink is the more important thing)

You also have the issue that, as has been stated, it takes weeks if not months to rework a SIN. The base threshold is Rating x 32, and you get one roll per in-game week. Even cutting the threshold in half for starting with a "similar" stolen SIN getting to a Rating 1 level of faking the SIN would take 16 hits rolling at 1-week intervals.

*nods* But IIRC, that's forging a SIN, right? I don't think there's anything about how long legitimate alterations take, but I'd imagine they'd be pretty simple. Essentially the Doctor forwarding their records to the SIN, and possibly approval at the record's office, to make sure it's a legit doctor doing it. What there would take weeks? Especially if this was done with prior knowledge. And remember, once it's done, the infomation on the SIN is confidential, and a SINless inquirer isn't going to get any of it...

During that time, all the NMS has to do is go up to a KE officer, claim their commlink was stolen, and recite their SIN verbally. It doesn't take "tech savvy" to memorize a number; most people I know have their SSNs memorized, and a good portion have the DLNs memorized as well. Even the most skeptical of police officers is going to at least run the severely agitated person's ID before they dismiss the guy. Since, if they're alive, that's going to take less than a week, which means the hacker hasn't had nearly enough time to even begin reworking the SIN, the mugging would be pointless.

Hmm... Again, opinion, but that sounds like something that someone who grew up with those things would do. Who might need to use those things in that form could do. Someone who was given a commlink and SIN as an adult, who wasn't too sure how they worked, and didn't use them much if avoidable. Especially if they were under stress when having to try and recall it.

[CitizenJoe]

Alright try this scenario.  As a pixie, you're in Seattle as a pet under some Frog's ID.  That guy get's kacked and now you don't have an umbrella SIN to carry you.  Now you're the equivalent of a stray dog.