[Shango]

I have a few questions about the reflex roll to get out of the way of a bullet.
If I am reading the defense rules correctly the roll gets a -1 dice pool for every roll after the first until it is your action again, at which point the modefiers go away.
First of all, is this a correct interpetation of the rules?
Second, does that mean that if someone takes two shots at a character in the same action round (2 simple actions), that the first defense roll is the full reflex pool but the second roll is at reflex pool -1?
Third, if a character is shot at enough before his next action that his reflex pool is at zero, does he not get a reflex roll?
And finally, in the above situation, could the character elect to spend edge or does there need to be something left in the pool to use with the edge dice?

Thanks
-Erich

[Henzington]

first off you always get at least one dice for defense or a skill unless it says you can not default.  And yes to the second one.

[Blue_Lion]

I have a few questions about the reflex roll to get out of the way of a bullet.
If I am reading the defense rules correctly the roll gets a -1 dice pool for every roll after the first until it is your action again, at which point the modefiers go away.
First of all, is this a correct interpetation of the rules?
Second, does that mean that if someone takes two shots at a character in the same action round (2 simple actions), that the first defense roll is the full reflex pool but the second roll is at reflex pool -1?
Third, if a character is shot at enough before his next action that his reflex pool is at zero, does he not get a reflex roll?
And finally, in the above situation, could the character elect to spend edge or does there need to be something left in the pool to use with the edge dice?

Thanks
-Erich

first one and second one sound about right.
Third depends on if there is a peniltay cap rule in place making minimal roll on a stat 1 but i don't know of any that are not house rules. (you can put some one at higher negitive for one shot by doing full auto wide burst -9 but that is only agaist your attack.)

[GRaske]

I think a minimum pool of 1 dice would be worse though cause you have a 1 in 6 chance of getting a critical glitch every time you get shot at and that is going to get you killed faster then not dodging at all.

[Blue_Lion]

I think a minimum pool of 1 dice would be worse though cause you have a 1 in 6 chance of getting a critical glitch every time you get shot at and that is going to get you killed faster then not dodging at all.

well you can always choose not to dodge.

[All4BigGuns]

I think a minimum pool of 1 dice would be worse though cause you have a 1 in 6 chance of getting a critical glitch every time you get shot at and that is going to get you killed faster then not dodging at all.

well you can always choose not to dodge.

Actually, no, you can't. Read the steps of combat below.

The Combat Sequence
Use the procedure outlined below to resolve combat.
Step 1. Declare Att ack
The attacker declares an attack as part of the Declare Actions part of
his Action Phase (p. 146) and spends an appropriate action depending
on the type of attack.
The defender also declares what method he is using to defend. The
defender can choose to go on full defense (p. 160) if he chooses.
Step 2. Apply Situational Modifiers
Apply appropriate situation dice pool modifiers to the attacker according
to the specific attack. Modifiers may also apply to the defender’s
dice pool depending on his method of defense.
Step 3. Make the Opposed Test
The attacker rolls attack skill + attribute +/– modifiers. The defender
rolls defending skill + attribute +/– modifiers. If the attacker scores
more hits than the defender (the defender wins on ties), the attack hits
the target. Otherwise, the attack misses. Note the net hits (the number
of hits that exceed the defender’s hits).
If the result of the Opposed Test is a tie, the gamemaster may
choose to rule it as a grazing hit. A grazing hit does not do any damage,
but the character nevertheless makes contact. This allows certain contact-
only attacks (poisons, shock gloves, touch-only combat spells, etc.)
to still do damage.
Step 4. Compare Armor
Add the net hits scored to the base Damage Value of the attack; this is
the modified Damage Value.
Determine the type of armor used to defend against the specific
attack (see Armor, p. 160), and apply the attack’s Armor Penetration
modifier (see p. 162); this is the modified Armor Value.
If the attack causes Physical damage, compare the modified
Damage Value to the modified Armor Value. If the DV does not exceed
the Armor, then the attack inflicts Stun rather than Physical damage.
Step 5. Damage Resist ance Test
The defender rolls attribute + modified Armor Value to resist damage.
Each hit scored reduces the modified Damage Value by 1. If the DV is
reduce to 0 or less, no damage is inflicted.
Step 6. Apply Damage
Apply the remaining Damage Value to the target’s Condition
Monitor (Damage, p. 162). Each point of DV equals 1 box of
damage. Wound modifiers (see p. 163) may come into effect as a
result of damage. Characters may also need to check for knockdown
(see p. 161).

As you can see, nowhere does it state that the defender's portion of the opposed roll can be foregone, thus, you can not choose not to defend at all.

[Blue_Lion]

Sorry i know with some spells and such you can choose not resist but i see no reason not to let a person take a hit like a man. Does that mean i have to make a oposed roll with my self if I want to shoot myself in the foot to get out of the azatlan war?

[GRaske]

Sorry i know with some spells and such you can choose not resist but i see no reason not to let a person take a hit like a man. Does that mean i have to make a oposed roll with my self if I want to shoot myself in the foot to get out of the azatlan war?

lol yeah you just have really bad aim and keep missing your foot. Or it's like poking yourself in the eye and you just flinch all the time! Stupid reflexes!

[Ryo]

Yes, you do indeed take -1 per time you have to defend until your next action, which is another reason having more IP than your opponent is so important. There's also a martial art maneuver that reduces the penalty by 1, so you can get attacked twice before you start incurring modifiers.

As for the minimum dice pool thing, it seems a lot more reasonable to me to just negate the defense test with a dice pool of 0 than to play Russian Roulette with a single die. Crit Glitching a defense test is probably the deadliest thing you can do in this game, and considering a full wide burst alone is -9, which will immediately drop even augmented reaction as low as it goes without Full Dodging, it's a recipe for disaster.

[Tecumseh]

Here is the rule as written:

Defender Has Defended Against Previous Attacks (p.159 SR4A)
If a character has defended against at least one other attack (melee or
ranged) since his last action, apply a –1 cumulative modifier for each
additional defense roll.

Whether or not each shot by an assailant counts as an additional -1 for the defender depends on whether you interpret two shots as "one attack" (as they are coming from one person at the same time) or two separate attacks. I generally opt for the former, but that's more out of a desire to simplify the dice tracking rather than a literal interpretation of the rules. I think you could make a good argument for either approach, so go with whichever you prefer.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

Whether or not each shot by an assailant counts as an additional -1 for the defender depends on whether you interpret two shots as "one attack" (as they are coming from one person at the same time) or two separate attacks. I generally opt for the former, but that's more out of a desire to simplify the dice tracking rather than a literal interpretation of the rules. I think you could make a good argument for either approach, so go with whichever you prefer.

In SA mode, each shot is a separate attack because each shot requires a separate attack test (SR4A, 153).
In BF mode, each burst is a separate attack because each burst requires a separate attack test.
In SS or FA mode, there is only one attack test made.  The balance between multiple bullets in a burst and single bullets is achieved through the burst modifiers, depending on whether it's a wide or narrow burst.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

first off you always get at least one dice for defense or a skill unless it says you can not default.  And yes to the second one.

Can you cite a rule for this?  The only relevant rule I see is:

In some circumstances, modifiers may reduce a character’s dice pool to 0 or below. In this case, the character automatically fails the test unless she spends a point of Edge (see Edge, p.74). Spending a point of Edge this way is called making a Long Shot Test.  The character rolls only her Edge dice to make the test; this represents depending on blind luck rather than any innate ability or skill.

[Henzington]

you are right I had totally forgotten about the long shot rule.  Usually if someone is being shot at enough to get close to zero they are dead already in my experience at least.

[Xzylvador]

Hah. Reminds me of a player in our group we had who kind of seemed to have forgotten this.
He came to the table with a street sam rolling about 20 dice on full defense and 20 dice to soak damage. Our heaviest opposition was a bunch of Yakuza who rolled 10 dice attack and had 1IP, so I guess he must have felt he was immortal or hyper-fast like the agents from the matrix, because he decided to take on 7 guys at once.
Each of these guys doing two short wide bursts reduced his dice pool to almost nothing, damage came in, he soaked a lot but then wound modifiers made his dodges even worse, taking more net hits... he died first round in combat.

[JustADude]

Hah. Reminds me of a player in our group we had who kind of seemed to have forgotten this.
He came to the table with a street sam rolling about 20 dice on full defense and 20 dice to soak damage. Our heaviest opposition was a bunch of Yakuza who rolled 10 dice attack and had 1IP, so I guess he must have felt he was immortal or hyper-fast like the agents from the matrix, because he decided to take on 7 guys at once.
Each of these guys doing two short wide bursts reduced his dice pool to almost nothing, damage came in, he soaked a lot but then wound modifiers made his dodges even worse, taking more net hits... he died first round in combat.

Pffft... he broke one of the first rules of combat; never give them a chance to hit back. You want to take out a cluster of 7 guys, that's when you use a couple frag grenades and turn them into salsa.