[Toonces]

So, I haven't played Shadowrun since the late 90's and I'm jumping back into it with a new group and new rules.

Does anyone here have advice on house rules I could use to balance cyberware and bioware? I currently find bioware does everything cyberware can do for less essence and it can't be hacked. Okay, maybe there's the smartlink exception but as such, bioware is clearly superior than cyberware.

I don't find that the price alone is a sufficient balancing condition. In fact, that's a terrible problem because players get penalized for making an augmented character at creation instead of sitting on their hands and saving cash to buy better stuff later. I don't want my campaign to by a morality play about waiting and compound interest and eating your broccoli first.

I've had some thoughts so far but none of them really get it right...
* Double all essence cost of bioware mods or halve the essence cost of cyberware - probably too blunt a solution.
* Require biomoded runners to be on a diet of rejection-resistance drugs that ups their lifestyle cost and puts them at risk should their supply run dry.
* Have bioware slow your healing as you're effectively healing multiple bodies where as chrome in your body is one less thing your body needs to rebuild.
* Have bioware mods increase your racial maximums while cyberware increases your actual, current stats. This would also involve waiving exceptions as the idea here would be that the real path to super strength is having bio-modded muscle AND cybernetic muscles at once.
* Add some advantage to cyberware like increasing hit boxes for just having more metal in your body.

Anyway, I find the rules for cyber/bioware run contrary to the chrome aesthetic that is very much part of the Shadowrun appeal. If there are any GMs with similar preferences but more experience, please chime in.

-M

[Mirikon]

Bioware can't do everything cyberware can do. Not even close. It also has higher nuyen costs, and higher availability. Resources put into that are resources that can't be put into other things, like vehicles, weapons, and gear. If your players seriously have combat characters sitting at 1 IP waiting until they can save up 80K nuyen to even get the rating 1 Synaptic Booster, and aren't getting screwed by corpsec with 2+ IPs, then I'd say the problem is in how you run your game, not the difference between cyberware and bioware.

Seriously, there isn't a problem here. Especially since you can always switch out to bioware later if you like, and still have a bit of an essence hole that you can fill with other ware as you see fit, or invest in gene treatments to fill that hole.

[UmaroVI]

You should probably play some 4th edition first. I note that you think you need 'ware of any kind to get Smartlink bonuses...

There's plenty of reasons to use both cyberware and bioware. Some of the highlights:

Cyberlimbs are really, really good for the first time in, like, ever. And give you extra P boxes, as a matter of fact!
Synaptic Boosters, while less Essence than cyberware IP-boosters, can't ever give as big of a reaction boost because it doesn't work with Reaction Enhancers and doesn't provide as large a bonus as Move-by-wire.
There's a good number of bits and pieces that either do something bioware can't, or that stack with bioware in such a way that you want both. For example, Encephalon, Simsense Booster, Attention Coprocessor.

[Mäx]

And also, for those thinks bioware can do, it's supposed to be better then cyberware.
Thats not a mistake in balance, it's intentional and always has been.

[Xzylvador]

^ I'll second (or third or fourth) that there aren't any big balance issues with cyberware vs. bioware and that you should probably try playing the game for a while before making such dramatic rules changes.

Aside from that some things just don't make a lot of sense, for example:

* Have bioware mods increase your racial maximums while cyberware increases your actual, current stats. This would also involve waiving exceptions as the idea here would be that the real path to super strength is having bio-modded muscle AND cybernetic muscles at once.

How does that work? Let's say Mr. White has his muscles enhanced with Muscle Toner and Muscle Booster bioware. His natural muscles are augmented with synthetic wires and stuff making him more buff. But with your rules, it doesn't actually do anything.
But then he cuts off his arms, tossing those improved muscles in the garbage bin and replaces his bones and muscles with metal and electrical engines... how would those muscles in the garbage bin still effect his stats?

[Carmody]

One other reason to consider cyberware is the way the essence is counted when you use both bioware and cyberware.
You count bioware and cyberware essence lost separately and then halve the smallest one. This means that with you 6 essence points you can have either:
   - 6 points of bioware
   - 6 points of cyberware
   - 4 points of cyberware + 4 points of bioware (4+ 4/2)

This is a good reason to mix the both of them if you really want to go to the augmented side of the force 

[Mason]

* Add some advantage to cyberware like increasing hit boxes for just having more metal in your body.
-M

Every cyberlimb a character has adds 1 to their Physical Condition Monitor. This isn't a House Rule. it is just an obscure rule only mentioned once in the book. IIRC, it's near the cyberlimbs in the gear chapter.

Also, cyberlimb armor counts as armor for the entire character. Cyberlimb attributes can replace a character's physical attributes in related tests, and can go super high.

As a house rule, since cyberlimbs can have all feeling shut off at will, I also rule that if an area which is damaged is all cybered, you may turn off the pain in that area, eliminating wound penalties. Since I describe where injuries are, this is pretty easy to track and encourages more cyberlimbs.

Cyber eyes can overlay all vision types at once, granting the benefits of low light, ultrasound, and thermo simultaneously. You can also have flare compensation at the same time. Cyber ears have a similar treatment, and have access to the godliness that is Select Sound Filtering. Bioware can usually only grant one such augment per sense.

Don't forget that the lower Essence total of Bio or Cyber is cut in half before it is applied, so it is encouraged to get some of each.

Don't forget Alphaware. Betaware, and Deltaware. Most 'runners worth their salt will want to get high Grade wares, and with Bioware, this is RIDICULOUSLY expensive. Multiply the cost of Synaptic 3 by 10. YEAH. Anyway, when they start upgrading wares, all their starting ware will be gone anyway, so they shouldn't fret about what was spent at creation.

The nuyen cost should be quite a limiter, especially at creation. Perhaps you are awarding too much nuyen per mission?

[Toonces]

Perhaps I asked the question incorrectly. I'm not looking for lectures of your perceived ineptitude of my GMing nor am I asking for you to defend what you think makes cyberware and bioware balacned - I'm asking for input from anyone who A) happened to share the aesthetic inclination for chrome-punk over meat-punk I'm suggesting and B) had thoughts to share on the matter.

The issue I see is that players play a game to have fun and grab the toys they can play with. The character creation system does indeed suggest that bioware is ostensibly balanced as the BP it costs to get a Synaptic Enhancer are BPs that could have gone elsewhere if you got Wired Reflex. The problem I run into is that players trend towards one of two reactions to the end consequence - they get cool cyberware bits, run out of essence, and feel their characters is tapped out and watch the mages get more magicky, the hackers get more hacky, and the guys who didn't build an augmented character end up better because they used in-game proceeds to get the fancier cyberware. Or the other reaction is they see this 'guaranteed obsolescence' track and either avoid building cybered up characters (one player said "at least my Adept won't get screwed over for not buying Delta-grade Adept powers at creation") or sit on their essence because they feel like it's too precious to ever waste.

It's the endless struggle between keeping players excited at the start of the game but not having them hit walls later in the campaign when they regret their character creation decisions. Like it or not, I live with my head in the rulebook (and as do most people on the forum here) a lot more than my players do and I don't want them losing interest later.

I think the end solution for my group is probably just drop the essence stat completely and view essence cost as lost magic/resonance if you have it. Aside from some various healing rules, the essence rules just get in the way of the desired aesthetic.

[Makki]

you don't expect your players to upgrade their stuff?
a fresh 400BP runner will obviously have Wired Reflexes 2 for 32k Y. Later on he will have saved some cashe and switch for a MBW 2 alpha grade.
This will cost him 170k Y minus 10k he gets for dropping the old Wireds off at a street doc. In the package he gets 2 more REA and +1 Dodge and skillwires. Finally he has freed up 0.6 points of Essence, that he can put new stuff in, like Reaction Enhancer 2. Most likely he reached his augmented cap for REA by now. This is in so many ways superior to Bioware, one can't even dream of.

What I guess, is that bioware lacks your feel of cyberpunk. Do your players feel the same? Then make some ingame changes. Give every character two qualities for free: Biocompatibiltiy (Cyberware) + Genetic Heritage (Adapsin). They get a 30% Essence discount on cyberware now. But, you know, if they feel the need for more cyberpunk, they would just get these qualities themselves anyways.

What people before me wanted to remind you is, that cyberware in SR4 2070+ is so oldschool, so very 50s and 60s. You could just play SR2 or 3, but this is stupid imho. Do whatever you AND your group feel like, but don't be so aggro about people's answer if you want to "balance" (thread title) cyber vs. bio as they're clearly not unbalanced.

[Xzylvador]

The problem I run into is that players trend towards one of two reactions to the end consequence - they get cool cyberware bits, run out of essence, and feel their characters is tapped out and watch the mages get more magicky, the hackers get more hacky, and the guys who didn't build an augmented character end up better because they used in-game proceeds to get the fancier cyberware. Or the other reaction is they see this 'guaranteed obsolescence' track and either avoid building cybered up characters (one player said "at least my Adept won't get screwed over for not buying Delta-grade Adept powers at creation") or sit on their essence because they feel like it's too precious to ever waste.

This is, of course, completely ignoring the fact that Mr. Mundane will never get the money to get augmented to catch up and beyond the Chromed Street Sam. Because why would you hire Mr. Mundane, who's really good with guns, when the same money will get you Mr. Chrome who's not just good with guns, he's better than even 3 Mr. Mundanes could possibly be.

I play a 0.12 essence character and I have to say that I don't see why you think I built me character so wrong that it won't have a future in shadowrunning. He's as fast as 3 mundanes, more agile and stronger than they'll ever be, without any help he can climb smooth walls and windows faster than your average person can jump and all sorts of other weird stuff. So he'll get hired and paid more often and advance even further. Because while he doesn't have the essence to add a lot more stuff, if he rips out some of his second-hand standard 'ware and replaces it with good alpha or betaware stuff, he'll have essence holes to fill with even more toys. In the meanwhile, he'll kill every mundane shmuck who gets in his way without breaking a sweat and steal the pocketful of credsticks they're saving.

So perhaps we answered incorrectly. We didn't ask to hear lectures on our apparent failure to grasp character building and advancement rules, we simply offered our thoughts on the matter in a constructive way, explaining that every con has its pro and vice versa.

That said, with the problem you perceive in the game, you could simply get your players some kind of street doc contact who's so desperate for 'parts' that he'll offer full price for any cyber-enhancement he'll let them take out, so when they upgrade they haven't "wasted" their BP/nuyen. Unless you're throwing vampires or evil mages their way, they won't notice a difference between 6 or 0.6 essence. (And even then, if attacked by a Vampire, I'd rather be a 3 IP, 12 agility super-chromed monster than a mundane weapon expert. My chances of killing that bloodsucker before he can be a threat are a lot better.

[Mara]

Toonces,
  If you want to put an emphasis on chrome verses meat augmentation, you can always take a look at Cyberpunk 2020(NOT
Cyberpunk v3) and its whole idea that extensive modifications mess with your psychology.

Or, you could houserule that the genetech treatment that replaces essence holes a) does not effect Bioware and b)
works on Essence loss even when the CYBER-ware is still there. You could even make it into a sliding scale for the cost
based on the amount of essence being regained. I would still be inclined to say that there would be a cap of how much it
could gain back per implant(as I would make it basicly genetech to make your body accept that one particular implant better),
like say for anything under 1 essence in cost, a maximum gain back of 90%, with stuff higher then 1 doing something lower, representing that bigger implants are just harder for the body to adjust to.

The downside of this approach, of course, is that it actually means no reason for corps to develop Cyberzombies...or,
maybe, it is an outgrowth of the Cyberzombie research..that Cyberzombies are what you get when the corp wants something
this augmented out fast, while this process is longer, slower, and...more on a par with turning out a highly skilled Adept then
a quickly churned out killing machine.

   Now, that said, I disagree with your premise that people do not build augmented characters due to ideas of guaranteed obsolescence, or sitting on their essence. Heck, I never do that. I have no problem, at all, inf act, taking a magic hit for an
adept or magician early on by taking something like cybereyes or synaptic booster(for Adepts, outright, synaptic booster is
STILL the best bet for improving your initiative. I have no problem dumping that 160K at chargen to give a combat adept
Synaptic Booster 2, which still loses me less Power Points then taking Improved Reflexes 2).

    I am curious, though..it seems like you want your players to play a certain way. You seem to want to have everyone going in cybered to the max. Some players DO think their essence is too precious to waste, some do see the advantages to having some stuff waiting to get after chargen. However, there are also the ones who go in and build the character to do the best they can at the role they are wanting it to be. The chargen and karma systems do put a strong emphasis on making sure you have the best attributes you can out of the gate, as after you get out, they will be considerably harder to improve. As a player, my job is to push at the GM's comfort zone and NOT play the way he expects me to. As a GM, my job is to try and figure out what the players are going to do and make it a challenge for them, no matter how powerful they are. In fact, in my group, and I would assume other groups, we hold that it is not the gear, but how you use it. There are reasons why, for example, when I play a character with hydraulic jacks in my legs, the GM gets nervous. I LOVE the Eyedrone, as well...and I have done some horrible, horrible things with Geck-grips, smartlink, and a wirelessly controlled grenade launchers. A magician or adept is always going to get more power, sure....but that just means the Street Sam in the group gets more cunning. And, while the Magician or Adept get more raw power, the Street Sam expands more laterally, learning more skills, improving their attributes, in essence, able to do more DIFFERENT things then the Adept who can only do their specialization, or the magician, who can only do magical stuff. After all:
a powerbolt cannot go through a wall....an Assault Cannon shell with a Radar Scope not only can go through the wall, it can kill the mage on the other side.

[UmaroVI]

It's the endless struggle between keeping players excited at the start of the game but not having them hit walls later in the campaign when they regret their character creation decisions. Like it or not, I live with my head in the rulebook (and as do most people on the forum here) a lot more than my players do and I don't want them losing interest later.

I think the end solution for my group is probably just drop the essence stat completely and view essence cost as lost magic/resonance if you have it. Aside from some various healing rules, the essence rules just get in the way of the desired aesthetic.

You do realize you can replace your 'ware with newer, better 'ware, right? You can replace your Wired Reflexes with Move-by-Wire or whatever else down the line.

Removing Essence will lead to Robocop being probably more ubiquitous than you want, because right now Robocop is a balanced way to go and limited by Essence. If you remove Essence, Robocop becomes ultimate win times forever.

[Tsuzua]

One thing to note is that removing a piece of ware "frees up" the lost essence.  Your essence doesn't rise, but you can spend the already lost essence on new ware just fine.  For example, upgrading from Wired Reflexes 2 to Move By Wire 2 doesn't cost you any additional essence.  The 3 points of essence spent are freed up and can be spent towards the Move By Wire.  If it's alphaware MBW2, then the .6 difference hangs around and can be used for future ware.

If you're just worried about cyberware/bioware balance, one big thing is to just buff muscle replacement.  For the most part, the bioware version of something is "better" either in effects or net essence cost, but there's a huge premium for generally mild results.  However muscle toner blows muscle replacement out of the water. 

While mundanes can easily have more essence than they need in most cases*, even they can't afford to use 4 essence (3.2 with alphaware) for +4 Agility and +4 STR.  Muscle toner isn't that much more expensive than muscle replacement (12000Y) and muscle toner 4 uses up .8 essence which will most likely be halved to .4 which is only a mild cost.  If you do care about STR, you do have to pay 28000Y more (60,000Y total or high for an non-alphaware implant but not crazy), but the essence cost is still 1.6 halved to .8 which is quite affordable.   

I would lower the essence cost of muscle replacement to at least .5/level.  2 essence is expensive by essence standards but at least livable.  If you only care about Agility, you may still just grab muscle toner instead and save a decent chuck of essence.  If you want STR too, you can play the bioware tax and save essence or just live with your fake muscles.

After that, bioware and cyberware typically don't have face offs where one is clearly superior than the other.  They also have their own special "area" of worthwhile options. Bioware will typically has useful brain mods while cyberware has cool techno-gimmicks.

*- I'm assuming most mundanes have an 3 essence IP booster such as Wired Reflexes 2.  After that, they may or may not have a cyberlimb or two.  After that, they get typically low essence cost cyberware or bioware.  This will ultimately put them in the .01-2 essence range depending on what they feel like.  There are exceptions for those who go with full body replacement track, but there's moderately rare in my experience especially at creation.

[Mara]

I was thinking about this today, and one other way Toonces could go:
Initiation for Magicians/Adepts, Submersion for Technomancers effectively creates "virtual Essence" for purposes
of determining what their magic attribute can be.

Essence is still useful for balancing out the cyber to the magical, so he COULD do something like: Allowing Mundanes
to buy more Essence with Karma the same way that Magicians/Adepts/Technomancers buy their Initiation/Submersion
grades. This, of course, would apply only to Mundanes(easily explained: the ability to raise their Magic/Resonance plus
the metamagic/echoes that the others get is where the 'stuff' that Essence gets goes to.) and still provides a reason that
Corps would use Cybermancy to make Cyberzombies(it is STILL faster to make a Cyberzombie then get someone trained
and conditioned to the point of a veteran Street Sam who has bought up an addition 4 Essence).

[JustADude]

I was thinking about this today, and one other way Toonces could go:
Initiation for Magicians/Adepts, Submersion for Technomancers effectively creates "virtual Essence" for purposes
of determining what their magic attribute can be.

Essence is still useful for balancing out the cyber to the magical, so he COULD do something like: Allowing Mundanes
to buy more Essence with Karma the same way that Magicians/Adepts/Technomancers buy their Initiation/Submersion
grades. This, of course, would apply only to Mundanes(easily explained: the ability to raise their Magic/Resonance plus
the metamagic/echoes that the others get is where the 'stuff' that Essence gets goes to.) and still provides a reason that
Corps would use Cybermancy to make Cyberzombies(it is STILL faster to make a Cyberzombie then get someone trained
and conditioned to the point of a veteran Street Sam who has bought up an addition 4 Essence).

One question with that route; would they just buy the extra Initiation grade and the extra point of Essence counts as their "free Metamagic" the way Adepts can get an extra Power Point, or would they have to buy the Initiation and the Essence separately?

Okay, two questions... if the extra Essence isn't automatic, what would they be able to get when they Initiate that equates to said free Metamagic?