[grimful]

okay so i was trying out chummer and when i gave a char type O system, and set the bioware ratting to deltaware the essance cost was 0. i assume this is an error and that the cost should end up being 1/4 not 0 but if it is suppose to be 0 let me know thanks.

[JustADude]

Actually, Deltaware doesn't stack with Type O System. The trait makes Standard 'ware count as Delta, so what you're doing is technically illegal.

However, in the case of multiple percentage mods, the rules do say to add them all up before factoring them in.

[Xzylvador]

Type-O doesn't give a percentage mod, it lets you treat things like deltaware.
As such, normal-grade 'ware is treated like deltaware, alpha- and beta-ware are treated like deltaware and deltaware is treated like, you guessed it: deltaware.
It doesn't give you the essence-discount twice.

[Red]

You know, from a rules-perspective, I understand why, but considering that the reduced Essence cost of higher grades is often due to customization to the person being implanted, I have a hard time justifying why it wouldn't stack. I supposed I see it this way: if you're building a building out of better materials (the cyber) and on better ground (Type O), why shouldn't it all work together to make an overall-better structure?

I've got to be wrong on this. Can anyone explain past a rules-perspective?

[Thrass]

@Red yes higher grade = better customized

and that's the point

a Type-O Human is customized (to a delta degree) to standard bioware so you can't further customize the ware to the bodys needs

[Red]

Ahhhh, you're right. I was thinking of the Quality that makes it easier to accept Delta cyberware not stacking with actual Delta cyber. My mistake, entirely.

[farothel]

Follow-up question: does type-O system stacks with cybertollerance (which gives you a 10% essence discount on cyber)?  As far as I know it stacks with normal delta grade 'ware.

[All4BigGuns]

The main problem with Type O System comes in when you run into the people who go by  the most anal of interpretations in reading the quality and restrict it only to a small subset of bioware which has maybe four implants that are really all that useful. In these cases, the cost of the quality becomes vastly overpriced.

[Tsuzua]

The main problem with Type O System comes in when you run into the people who go by  the most anal of interpretations in reading the quality and restrict it only to a small subset of bioware which has maybe four implants that are really all that useful. In these cases, the cost of the quality becomes vastly overpriced.

Even allowing it to work with cultured bioware, it's still overpriced.  Mundanes don't need the essence savings especially for bioware.  You generally have more than enough essence unless you want a full replacement body and/or wired reflexes/MBW, both of which are cyberware.  You'll be paying 30BP to save .5 essence (2 points bioware halved for Type 0 and then halved again for cyberware > bioware cost). 

If you're awakened, then you're going to be about cramming as much bioware in as little of essence as possible.  However Type O + awakened qualities will destroy your qualities cap.  If you have 2 perks from Missions and increase your qualities cap to 45, you can do Type O and something like magician.  But then you can't get a mentor or a power focus.  If you have a high or no quality cap, I could see going Type O.  You could easily save yourself a magic point with Type O.  If you're really augmented, then maybe 2.  Still going to be pricey, but it can be worth it.

[All4BigGuns]

The main problem with Type O System comes in when you run into the people who go by  the most anal of interpretations in reading the quality and restrict it only to a small subset of bioware which has maybe four implants that are really all that useful. In these cases, the cost of the quality becomes vastly overpriced.

Even allowing it to work with cultured bioware, it's still overpriced.  Mundanes don't need the essence savings especially for bioware.  You generally have more than enough essence unless you want a full replacement body and/or wired reflexes/MBW, both of which are cyberware.  You'll be paying 30BP to save .5 essence (2 points bioware halved for Type 0 and then halved again for cyberware > bioware cost). 

If you're awakened, then you're going to be about cramming as much bioware in as little of essence as possible.  However Type O + awakened qualities will destroy your qualities cap.  If you have 2 perks from Missions and increase your qualities cap to 45, you can do Type O and something like magician.  But then you can't get a mentor or a power focus.  If you have a high or no quality cap, I could see going Type O.  You could easily save yourself a magic point with Type O.  If you're really augmented, then maybe 2.  Still going to be pricey, but it can be worth it.

But assuming what in my opinion is the proper interpretation, Type O System rocks for the straight bioware character. Yeah, it falls short when the two implant types are mixed as in your example in most cases, but I have built characters with both types that had more essence loss from bio than from cyber. (Disclaimer- only cyber were eyes and ears.)

[Tsuzua]

But assuming what in my opinion is the proper interpretation, Type O System rocks for the straight bioware character. Yeah, it falls short when the two implant types are mixed as in your example in most cases, but I have built characters with both types that had more essence loss from bio than from cyber. (Disclaimer- only cyber were eyes and ears.)

What was your essence score?  Did you really need the Type O?  You'll have to fill yourself with huge amount of bioware to hit 6 full points.  You can do it, but it'll be expensive as heck and you'll be taking a lot of bioware just for sake of taking bioware (generally what I call nifty ware). 

For example, let's say you have the following:
Synaptic Bosoters 3
Enhanced Articulation
Bone Density Augmentation 4
Muscle Toner 4
Muscle Augmentation 4
Platelet Factories
Pain Editor
3 Skill Group Reflex Recorders
Synthacardium 3
Superthyroid Gland
Total Essence Cost: 6.7 Essence

You can fit all of this with biocompatibility(bioware) and 1 piece of alphaware X.  That's a 20BP savings.  And you can totally afford the alphaware piece since this package costs over 600,000Y normal grade.  And you could easily live without much of the bioware in this list (and I included the most of the better pieces of bioware).  You could drop the Bone Density Augmentation and get a armored cyberlimb and "save" .7 essence that way for example.  And Synthacardium is just cool and you can live without it.

I guess one nifty trick you might be able to do is get all of the bioware used and not suffer the used penalty cost and get everything half off.  That'll decrease the above pool to a mere 300,000+Y.  But this requires more special pleading from the GM which you likely had to do anyways to get Type O to work with cultured ware anyways.

[All4BigGuns]

I didn't say I took Type O, I just said I have built a character that had more bio essence loss than cyber.

Also, I don't consider it "taking special pleading", as the term basic in the quality I feel is intended to refer to grade, not to make the quality useless (as is the case under the interpretation that the bioware like cerebral boosters and synaptic boosters aren't affected).

[Red]

Nifty ware just now became a chain of low-grade cyber shops at the mall one of the teen runner frequents. Thank you.

[Tsuzua]

I didn't say I took Type O, I just said I have built a character that had more bio essence loss than cyber.

Also, I don't consider it "taking special pleading", as the term basic in the quality I feel is intended to refer to grade, not to make the quality useless (as is the case under the interpretation that the bioware like cerebral boosters and synaptic boosters aren't affected).

I've done the same.  It was quite possibly a best case scenario for Type O, an augmented mystic adept with 3 points of augmentation.  If I just magicy got Type O for free, I would save about .6 essence. But there would be no way to fit into the build.  If it wasn't for Missions, I guess I could talk to the GM to buy Type O with 60 karma, which is a hell of a lot for something I'll burn on trying to get a second cyberarm or something.

Unfortunately as much as Type O could use the love, I will have to disagree about it and cultured ware.  It seems like the writers of Augmented considered basic and cultured bioware to be different.

For example under Second Hand Bioware (Aug 61), "Only basic bioware can be found second-hand—alpha or better grade and cultured bioware are by definition protein-matched and cannot be implanted in another body."  The line differentiates between basic ware from other grades and cultured ware.

Then again, in my list above, the more restricted viewpoint only cuts out about 1.2 essence of the 3.35 worth of savings Type O would provide (the Synaptic Boosters, Pain Editor, and Skill Group Recorders are cultured).  That's big chuck, but it's not a total nerfing.

Either way, Type O should be cheaper.  My off-the-cuff guess is 15-20 points, but I'll have to work on it to figure the best value and it might matter if you want it to work on cultured or not.

[Crash_00]

I thought Type O specifically forbid second hand ware?

It's not great at character creation, but over the course of a campaign it has serious potential. Especially if you follow the interpretation that augmentations can be upgraded rather than requiring them to be replaced.

Other things I remember taking were:
Damage Compensators (Usually the last thing just to keep from having to turn Pain Editor on all the time in combat situations)
Cerebral Boosters
Mnemonic Enhancers
Trauma Dampener
Orthoskin
Reception Enhancer
Sleep Regulator
Tracheal Filters
Toxin Extractors
Ref. Recorders for damn near everything physical.

Then again, mine was designed with more of an all around savy spy type more than chrome and gun street sammie.

But this requires more special pleading from the GM which you likely had to do anyways to get Type O to work with cultured ware anyways.

Carefully read Augmentation. While SR4A uses basic to refer to a type of bioware (rather than a grade) and the FAQ confirms that the terminology is supposed to work that way in SR4A (the core book and books coming after), Augmentation was written before SR4A and did not use this standard terminology. Augmentation used basic to refer to grade and standard to refer to type.

For some clear cases of this:

Augmentation, pg. 61

Only basic bioware can be found second-hand—alpha or better grade and cultured bioware are by definition protein-matched and cannot be implanted in another body

Augmentation, pg. 63

Standard Bioware
Echolocation:

Augmentation, pg. 107

Grades
Like cyberware and bioware, nanocybernetic implants come in four grades that determine their quality, invasiveness and modify their final prices: basic, alphaware, betaware, and deltaware. Use the Essence Cost Multipliers and Cost Multipliers on p. 303, SR4.

Augmentation, pg. 125

Implant Surgery/Repair
Basic 8
Alphaware 12
Betaware 16
Deltaware 24

Augmentation, pg. 122

(e) Implantation (basic and alpha-grade cyberware/bioware).

Augmentation, pg. 127

Cyberware of basic and alpha grade is available off-the-rack in a variety of sizes and styles to accommodate most individuals.

Augmentation, pg. 127

Bioware (type O) is available ready-made in basic and alpha grades

Augmentation, pg. 127

double that for anything above basic type O grade.

Augmentation, pg. 127

Basic Grade Medicine (Implant Surgery) + Logic (4, 1 hour) *
Basic Grade (Cultured Bioware) Medicine (Implant Surgery) + Logic (8, 1 hour) *

Emphasis mine of course. It should be clear after a careful reading that basic refers to grades in Augmentation (standard grade) and that standard refers to type (basic type). Hardly the first Shadowrun mix up, and probably far from the last, but it does mean that Type O should work with all standard grade bioware (unless you want to argue that's the one instance in the book the editor got right), after all you have to use the terminology the writer was blatantly using to decipher what the writer wrote.

The line differentiates between basic ware from other grades and cultured ware.

No, it means that all cultured ware ("basic" or not) has to be matched to the client's nervous system and custom tailored. See the last Augmentation quote I provided, Basic Grade (Cultured Bioware) does exist in the book.