[JustADude]

Well, a lot of my points I was going to make got ninja'd while I was writing this. However, there's one point nobody's mentioned:

The Thunderstruck does have a theoretically superior AP versus the max a Barrett can come up with, but it's only in effect if the target has more than 11 points of armor.

The advantage starts at -1 at 12 and goes down by -1 for every 2 points after. That means that, against anything other than a deliberately mini-maxed Walking Tank, it's only going to have a slim advantage in AP, and it will perform worse against "typically" armored NPCs, as well as most vehicles that aren't specifically "Armored Vehicles". Ditto going up against Spirits less than Force 7 and walls of anything less than Heavy Structural Material rating.

In return for this situational advantage, the Thunderstruck is heavier, bulkier, louder, more expensive, harder to get, and requires more secondary equipment to function than the Barrett. It also can't fire specialty ammo like SnS, Gel Rounds, or chemical rounds for those situations where a non-lethal take-down is required.

Also, the sustained spells and Spirits used to make up for the noise and bulk could probably be more beneficially turned towards battlefield control. Instead of sustaining Silence, for example, you could sustain Increase Reflexes 4.

Also, finally, to Karzak... I never said that the Barrett was BETTER, just that it isn't significantly worse, when you look at the tradeoffs. At the very least, my table's sniper has never had a single problem with it, and the only thing that ever required him to ever even use a second shot has been an Ares Dragon, which rolls 22 dice just for Body and has a 19-box damage track.

[UmaroVI]

Do you know how shooting targets targets through walls and vehicles works? You should read that section, then come back.

[JustADude]

Do you know how shooting targets targets through walls and vehicles works? You should read that section, then come back.

Okay, apparently my GM was doing it wrong for the walls... and making them too effective. He was just straight-up subtracting the Barrier Armor from the AP and DV before the bullet gets to the person, rather than wiping out AP, comparing the remaining value, and adding the rest of the BA to the target's Armor if it gets through.

Besides any rational arguments, which I've already presented, there's the simple fact that "Cannon Sniping" just leaves a bad dang taste in my mouth. At that point you're not a "Sniper / Mage," which is what the listed concept is, you're a "Heavy Weapons Specialist / Mage."

Given the effectiveness of this guy vs a pure Combat Mage at long-range single-target assassinations, the whole character is based on style over substance, so why bastardize the style to get that wee bit more substance?

[UmaroVI]

Soo... we're back where we started like 2 pages ago, with "if you don't care about effectiveness, just pick the coolest looking sniper rifle. If you do, use Heavy Weapons."

[Mirikon]

Something else to consider is that all that magic you're using to keep the assault cannon quiet makes you glow like a christmas tree on the astral. If there are any magical assets at all, and you don't take them out in the first shot, then you're going to get multiple stunballs on your location, spirits to take out your spirits, artillery targeting your position, someone spraying the area with the FA grenade launcher, or whatever might occur to them.

The Barrett, on the other hand, is damn powerful, and already quiet, which means that you can keep your astral profile lower. Against armored vehicles, yes, heavy weapons are better. But snipers don't go after armored vehicles. That's the job of the troll with the Panther in one hand and the White Knight in the other. A sniper picks off individuals while they are out of their vehicles. You're going along like nothing's happening, and then suddenly your buddy's head turns into a fine red mist, and you never even heard the shot. THAT is what sniper's do. Against anything other than a Troll with max augmented Body and Heavy Milspec Armor (with the helmet, gel packs, carbon-boron infusion, kevlar threading, and delta-amyloid coating), Full Body Form-Fitting armor, and a ballistic shield, the Barrett is a better choice for anti-personnel work. Ok, that was a bit of an exaggeration, but there you go.

Use heavy weapons to deal with vehicles and the walking Troll tank. Use sniper rifles for people.

And two other things to think of. 1) There's always a bigger fish. 2) Anything you use the DM is likely going to use AGAINST you at some point, to keep you from running roughshod over the world. So if you feel like being on the receiving end of the upper level nasty a DM can throw your way, go on ahead. But just know you're never going to win that arms race.

[Crash_00]

A few quick notes here:

Physical mask is the next step, if you need one. You're already probably using it to disguise your weapon (a gauss rifle and a sniper rifle are both practically impossible to conceal through mundane means). Physical mask can alter sound as well as sight and smell. There's no reason why your firearm discharging should sound anything like a firearm. Nor is any reason it has to be anywhere near as loud.

Right, so you cast Physical Mask on your Guass Cannon and mask its noise to sound like silence. Now, what happens when that assault cannon round hits on the other side? It explodes like the main tank gun round that it is and causes a ruckus from hell. I'm not saying that a SR round hitting a target is the quietest thing in the world, but its a hell of a lot more subtle.

Now in defense of your point, you could technically cast Physical Mask on each bullet too , but you either A.) have to do this in advance which is going to result in one hell of a sustaining penalty or B.)have to spend complex action + simple action (assuming smartlink) in between each shot doing this (free to drop the clip, complex for spell casting the physical mask (you have to touch the subject, ie bullet), and simple to load clip again). All in all, it gets rather cumbersome. Of course, in addition these spells can make you very obvious to any sort of astral security.

Now there is also stealth and  silence, which used with each other can provide a decent coverage (stealth on the user and silence on the target area), but silence is fairly noticeable when it goes off. After all, we're used to hearing background sounds near us all the time and it's pretty noticeable when they stop...all at once. Keep in mind that Stealth will not take care of everything by itself because you are firing explosive rounds with an assault cannon. Unless you're stealthing the gun and the ammunition, but you'll still need to see the above issue with physical mask. Fortunately it's not as big of a problem because a simple slit in the mag will allow you to cast without needing to drop/reload clip each time you fire. It's still cumbersome. Silence will work by itself if you are close enough for you and the target to be within range, but I'd hardly call it a sniping situation at that point.

Okay, apparently my GM was doing it wrong for the walls... and making them too effective. He was just straight-up subtracting the Barrier Armor from the AP and DV before the bullet gets to the person, rather than wiping out AP, comparing the remaining value, and adding the rest of the BA to the target's Armor if it gets through.

No, I was taking his AP out of the Armor rating and adding the left over to the baddies armor. I tracked his DV to make sure it was exceeding the armor rating (otherwise it bounces off instead of going through).

Mechanically the Guass Rifle is better for firing through walls, but as a GM I'd toss a pretty hefty modifier on attack rolls to represent you're trying to aim so that the shrapnel (from the round that exploded when it hit the wall) hits the target rather than a solid round penetrating through.

Soo... we're back where we started like 2 pages ago, with "if you don't care about effectiveness, just pick the coolest looking sniper rifle. If you do, use Heavy Weapons."

But that's not the actual true statement at all. The real statement would be "if you don't care about having the maximum DV/AP just pick the best sniper rifle. Otherwise use heavy weapons." DV/AP are not the only things to take into account when it comes to a weapon's potential/effectiveness.

[UmaroVI]

Most of your argument is predicated on Gauss Rifles firing some sort of explosive round. They don't. Gauss rifle rounds are "ferromagnetic tungsten alloy darts" (Arsenal 35).

[UmaroVI]

Also, I think some of you who are arguing the AP isn't that useful for sniping are assuming thinking too much real-world sniping and not enough Shadowrun sniping. Yeah, the rifle is fine if you're shooting lightly armored humans who hang around outdoors - ie, real-world sniping targets. One example of a time when you do need that AP:

Your target is in police custody. They're transporting him from one heavily fortified maximum security prison to another, sedated, inside a Rigger Cocoon mounted in an Ares Citymaster. Note that this is a perfectly sensible (even relatively standard - the Rigger Cocoon actually suggests using it to transport sedated people) thing for them to do with a high-security prisoner. You can punch through this with a good shot from a Gauss Rifle (it's not trivial - you need 17 modified DV to not ping, so that's a called shot and 5 net hits, but that's doable). A traditional sniper rifle is useless for this - you're not getting the 33 modified DV you need.

[Crash_00]

Most of your argument is predicated on Gauss Rifles firing some sort of explosive round. They don't. Gauss rifle rounds are "ferromagnetic tungsten alloy darts" (Arsenal 35).

You're right, I assumed they fired the same rounds all other weapons of their class did. It doesn't change the argument at all really because whatever surface that tungsten dart hits after it massively over-penetrates the human target you fire at is going to explode into a shower of debris. The only one affected is shooting through the wall, which I personally felt a guass cannon should be able to do, just not with the standard cannon rounds.

Your target is in police custody. They're transporting him from one heavily fortified maximum security prison to another, sedated, inside a Rigger Cocoon mounted in an Ares Citymaster. Note that this is a perfectly sensible (even relatively standard - the Rigger Cocoon actually suggests using it to transport sedated people) thing for them to do with a high-security prisoner. You can punch through this with a good shot from a Gauss Rifle (it's not trivial - you need 17 modified DV to not ping, so that's a called shot and 5 net hits, but that's doable). A traditional sniper rifle is useless for this - you're not getting the 33 modified DV you need.

Well if the player takes the time to set up a good spot and prepare, you can do it with sniper rifle, it's just very hard (which shooting through forty points of armor should be) and will probably take some edge. Yes, an anti-vehicle weapon does the job of penetration better, but that shot hitting the vehicle is going to be anything but subtle. Most snipers would probably do the legwork and take the time to prepare a sniping point that is, you know, not when the target is behind the most physically impeding point possible. Like entering or exiting the vehicle (which with a creative mindset is not that hard to force).

If you want to force a situation in which one weapon has to be used, you always can. That does not prove that it's the best weapon though.

[UmaroVI]

Well if the player takes the time to set up a good spot and prepare, you can do it with sniper rifle, it's just very hard (which shooting through forty points of armor should be) and will probably take some edge.

You seriously expect to be able to get 24 net hits? Even with edge, at the point where you're able to do that, you should be getting hired to assassinate Lofwyr, not some dude. If you are that level of awesome, then yeah, your weapon choice doesn't matter so much because you can probably shoot the wings off a fly with a rusty BB-gun, but I'm assuming somewhat more down-to-earth levels of skill here.

[Tsuzua]

Most snipers would probably do the legwork and take the time to prepare a sniping point that is, you know, not when the target is behind the most physically impeding point possible. Like entering or exiting the vehicle (which with a creative mindset is not that hard to force).

There is quite the advantage of being able to hit people when they are at their safest.  First off, you remove a point of failure in your plan.  Now you don't have to get them to get out of the cocoon or take off their anchored barrier spell ring.  You can just shoot them from anywhere along the path you desire.

And if you're taking out low armored dudes chilling outside who can't see you, it honestly doesn't matter what you use to shoot them.  A SS modded battle rifle is a better choice  You're going to murderate whoever you shoot.  You also have an very handy weapon in case your position is compromised by a spirit or lucky roll or whatever.  You also use the much more versatile Automatics skill that covers other useful stuff like concealable weapons.

If sniper rifles were a throw-in to some other firearms skill, I would actually like them a lot more and suggest them.  Their big problem is they are the only redeeming feature of Longarms.  Shotguns have fallen from the third edition throne and now are just meh rifles or assault rifles that can't get gas vents.  Sport rifles are cheap weak sniper rifles and lose out to their equally legal peers, assault rifles. None of them are particularly concealable besides one short barreled shotgun that's just a bigger crummier heavy pistol. 

[Crash_00]

You seriously expect to be able to get 24 net hits? Even with edge, at the point where you're able to do that, you should be getting hired to assassinate Lofwyr, not some dude.

Don't need 24 net hits. Assuming you use the big daddy SR (Barret) with some AV rounds, you're looking at 9P based with a -10 AP. That means you cut through 10 of that forty armor right there. Call a shot to negate the other ten points of the citymaster's armor and you're looking at 9P vs. 20 armor. Assuming you take the time for the +3 bonus from aiming, you can take a separate free action to also call a shot for +4 DV. Now you're at 13 DV. Most sniper types I've seen roll about 20-22 dice on average, so they'll be down to rolling 6-8 now. Edging that should give them a fighting chance.

Is it a sure thing? No. Is it an average chance of happening? No, that's what makes it a hard shot. But if you line things up right, you should have more than one shot at it. If the character is particularly lucky, he can always just call a shot to negate all forty points of armor and spend edge to longshot it.

There is quite the advantage of being able to hit people when they are at their safest.  First off, you remove a point of failure in your plan.  Now you don't have to get them to get out of the cocoon or take off their anchored barrier spell ring.  You can just shoot them from anywhere along the path you desire.

Right, but if you're firing into a rigger cacoon, how do your verify the target's death? Any transport involving that much security is bound to have magical support, even if it's just a spirit set to keep everything away. Why wouldn't you hit at the load/unload point, where the target is vulnerable and verification is an ease (ie you see the pink mist)?

[Xzylvador]

Right, but if you're firing into a rigger cacoon, how do your verify the target's death?

By firing twice.

Or, use the same skill to fire a rocket launcher instead of any kind of rifle.

That said, I wish there were more reasons to pick longarms... but as it stands, they're just below par. I was kind of hoping that WAR!'s battle rifles would be thrown in with them when the book was released without mentioning their category, but it just wasn't meant to be.

[UmaroVI]

Assuming you take the time for the +3 bonus from aiming, you can take a separate free action to also call a shot for +4 DV.

You can't use two separate called shots on the same attack. You can either call for extra DV, or to negate armor, but not both.

If the character is particularly lucky, he can always just call a shot to negate all forty points of armor and spend edge to longshot it.

No, they actually can't: SR4A 171.

Right, but if you're firing into a rigger cacoon, how do your verify the target's death? Any transport involving that much security is bound to have magical support, even if it's just a spirit set to keep everything away. Why wouldn't you hit at the load/unload point, where the target is vulnerable and verification is an ease (ie you see the pink mist)?

Because the people doing the transport aren't morons, and do the unloading/loading of the target inside a building, ie, the exact time they would expect a sniper to try something and thus will have the maximum security, everyone on alert, etc etc, and that they can do on ground of their choosing?

[K_killn]

I think all shoot the tires