[crisses]

Crisses, watch this episode, and then get back to me. Or simply consider what happens when a kid gets HMHVV.

I didn't say children can't be cyber'd.  However there's many factors involved here.  And yes, a child could be infected, etc.  My ideas can be used for both serious and silly campaign ideas.  Here's some factors I personally considered when dealing with cybering a child: 

#You'd need a doctor/facility that would accept the job (not impossible, but it would get progressively harder the more above-board and elite the establishment is...), most implants wouldn't last very long in terms of being physically compatible. 
#Head size changes are more drastic very early in a child's life and a child's head is almost fully adult size by the time they reach puberty (I believe...) making cyber eyes, possibly cyber ears, and maybe some of the head implants able to tolerate the child's growth changes. 
#Body proportions change very drastically in big spurts, making things like wired reflexes or cyberlimbs very tough.   If a child lost an arm in an accident, they would probably use prosthetic devices until they were around age 18 (or physical maturity -- i.e. 21 for boys, 18 for girls etc.)
#Who would be manufacturing implants that are child-sized?  Black market?  Is there a large enough calling/market for this?  Would they be custom-jobs only?  If so, who is the recipient going to be (it would be designed-to-fit the child, who could have a growth spurt during the manufacture process...  unless growth-retarding hormones were given (bad child, no androgen)).

Anyway most of this would discourage parents from cybering their children, and all the above-board hospitals and cybershops would shy away from this work except in cases where you're correcting an extreme disability or saving a life.  It would be far far into Forbidden territory most of the time, due to the types of people who WOULD be doing it:  pimps in elite establishments, villain organizations, terrorist groups, etc.  It would take more nuyen than wiring the average schmo, and possibly a specialist in children's implants in the underground who is well-connected to either a cyberware artist who does custom work without caring whom it is being attached to, or a cadre of lesser-skilled folk who specialize in this type of work.

By all means, make up builds that are child-cranial-bombs, child-HMHVV Infected, child-assassins, etc.  Knock yourselves out.  My goal was adapting Shadowrun to be as close to what goes on with real children as feasible without 1) making it unplayable and 2) diverging from the style of the Shadowrun rules significantly enough that one would need a whole new system.

Why didn't I think of this earlier?

I'll read the thread.  Unfortunately when you search the web for "Shadowrunner Children" you get some kids clothes product line or something -- so I didn't come across that thread.   I did try...just didn't knock myself out on extended tests trying.


For the curious, here's an example 11-year-old orc technomancer build:

http://eveslist.crisses.org/ChildRunners/Example-Crescent

She's meant to be a runner-caliber child who will -- in just a few more years -- be able to hit the streets.  However in the meantime, that wouldn't stop her from doing work for the Orc Underground on occasion, or committing usual teen antics with her matrix buddies.

[Irian]

Just a detail that I also noticed in the first text: Goblinization ist very, very rare in 2070. Almost all orcs and trolls in 2070 are born that way.

[Fizzygoo]

I'd personally lower the Mental Adult ages by about 2-3 years, add in some high-lifestyle tech toys (non cyber/bio), max-cap 0-3 year olds attributes to 1, and max-cap 4-5 year olds to 1 or 1+0.5 if racial bonuses are positive for that attribute.

Sorry, chummer, but humans (especially males) don't actually mentally mature until their mid-20s.  Here's one source (NPR), but there's plenty others.  It's why car insurance companies change their rates at 25, especially for men. [Another quote here: "A young woman reaches full maturity, in terms of brain development, between 21 and 22 years of age. A young man does not reach full maturity, in terms of brain development, until nearly 30 years of age."]  There's much controversy & research in this area currently.  If anything, the number keeps going UP on brain maturing, not down, as time goes on.  In my child-runner game terms, brain maturity doesn't really figure in unless you do all the math on the BP that youths spend during their childhood -- in some cases, they will not receive all their 400 BP (for character-class runners) until between Physical & Mental maturity.  I figured that was OK.  Not every runner has to start real game-time running at age 18 or 20.  We societally idolize the 20-somethings, but in terms of really being "in our game" if you read the great works of some of the best male minds, you'll find they singularly agree that they didn't really get "into their game" (mentally) until their 40s+.

"Sorry, chummer" ? ... But that is why I said "personally." I'm aware of latent mental maturity rates. And as you point out, "there's much controversy & research in this area currently." And Dr. Aamodt does appear to have good current data on which to base your chosen age for human mental maturity. And that there exists a certain level social idolization of the 18-24 age range. And, while I too  have fun fitting the square peg of reality into the round hole of RPGs: I personally would lower the age range that you personally set for humans (as you chose 1 year less than stated in the NPR interview) to 21 because while it may be that the brain is still in the process of maturing; the difference in mental capacity between an average 21 year old and an average 25 year old (regardless of mental attribute) is less than the difference between an average 11 year old and an average 15 year old (assuming that Aamodt is correct and that age 18 is the half way point of maturity after puberty and 25 is the leveling-off end point, which would make the beginning start at 11) ... so much so that by 21 any additional maturation of the brain, on average, will not translate into an Attribute point's worth of increase by age 25.

[Lethe]

Define mental capacity! The only thing that is less developed at age 21 is "the part of the brain that helps you to inhibit impulses and to plan and organize your behavior to reach a goal". So why they might have the same mental attributes (as used in shadowrun) as a 25 years old, they still tend to make stupid decisions in certain situations. That you could just reflect by giving them lots of proper negative qualities until they mature, if you like so. But i don't think it should matter in shadowrun.


Shadowrun is just not made for playing as children. Of course you can do that and might even have fun. But you are missing out 90% of the content which is clearly not made for children.

[inca1980]

I think the problem is that people some how think that game systems are meant for something other than the very narrow range which they intend to cover, i.e. hero's battling villains.  Now some systems like shadowrun do give some really good wiggle room and allow you to apply the system to a lot of different events....but in the end, don't judge the system based on things it's not designed to resolve. 

I like to incorporate children in my shadowruns but again, they represent the anti-thesis to dark, evil and thoroughly corrupt world of the shadows.  Especially in 2072 there are virtually no more institutions that somehow like for the good of metahumans.  Corporations obviously never had looked out for the good of people since their very beginnings but in 2073 governments themselves are incredibly corruptable.  I know a lot of fluff has steered away from this more 1st and 2nd edition world view, but i feel that produces some strange contradictions....SR makes much more sense when the only people who give a fuck are grass roots.  So children also represent this.  One of my players has a character named Brick and he is a troll with an adopted daughter....and she is his real reason for shadowrunning.  She also can be used against him however...and one day that just might happen....

[crisses]

Shadowrun is just not made for playing as children. Of course you can do that and might even have fun. But you are missing out 90% of the content which is clearly not made for children.

I think the child idea is very flexible.  I didn't create it to limit people: I created it to expand the creativity of the game & the number of settings that the game CAN work for.  While 90% of the content "wasn't made for children," if the world isn't one in which there are children who survive to adulthood, explain your characters' existence? 

One interesting thing one could do is run one's character's dependent children on the side on occasion for dreks and grins, and eventually they age out of children's rules, have spent their 400BP, are now "adults" (somewhere between 18-25 years old? race dependent...) and runners in their own right -- plus you, the player, have been there for a great deal of their background development (and probably played their parents, too).

Another thing, as others have pointed out, is having NPC kids as spys, weapons, etc.  And I think that's entirely feasible (not ethical, but villains ain't supposed to be ethical).  You don't have to use my idea to have these things happen, but it would make it a little more realistic.

Also, if your character is running with a gang, there's kids as couriers, also.  There's your fan-base too (if your street cred gets too high, you might attract a couple local kids who think your character is all-that...).  Sidekicks.  Siblings.  Children.  The list goes on and on, because in a world as deadly as you're painting Shadowrun, fertile metahumans must be getting busy (and note that Orc women give birth in litters of up to 6....) so it also must be crawling with kids.  Even if they have a high mortality rate.  Aztechnology pyramid offers on-site day care   Now that I think of it, the first classic scenario has a baby in it -- Food Fight.

Now, I haven't petitioned to write a supplement book that would be Cannon, so you can choose to incorporate my ideas, or help me tweak the idea, etc. but why knock it down?   Is it really that much of a bad idea?  Do I get disqualified as a Real™ Shadowrun Gamer because of it?

[All4BigGuns]

Now, I haven't petitioned to write a supplement book that would be Cannon, so you can choose to incorporate my ideas, or help me tweak the idea, etc. but why knock it down?   Is it really that much of a bad idea?  Do I get disqualified as a Real™ Shadowrun Gamer because of it?

Get on that, maybe with some other freelancers, you could come up with a good and workable way for that idea that would work for a wider variety of people.

[farothel]

actually there are alraedy teenagers in the game.  Or at least one: /dev/grll.
And in hellholes like Lagos you also have kids running around with guns.  Picador says it in one of the shadowtalk parts that she doesn't let anybody come to Lagos if she doesn't think he can handle shooting an 8-year old holding an AK-97.

So you can do something like that, it will just ask some adaptation of the rules.  Like only 300 BP for teenagers, for instance, limited to no cyber (normally only implanted after puberty).

[Mirikon]

In last edition, there were plenty of kids/teenagers running around, built on the same level as adult runners. They were called otaku. And in this edition, there's /dev/grrl, and at least one hacker from one of the intro pieces in one of the books.

Honestly, I don't see the point in setting different build totals for people if they want to play a character that is outside the norm. If they want to play a kid in a japanese schoolgirl outfit that is a deadly assassin, why not? Are you really telling me that such things are any more over the top than real, live catgirls? Mechanically, is there any reason one should be fine, while the other is punished? No.

Now, if you want to have in-game consequences for those choices, go right ahead. Hell, just look at the flak /dev/ gets for being a corp brat!

[All4BigGuns]

In last edition, there were plenty of kids/teenagers running around, built on the same level as adult runners. They were called otaku. And in this edition, there's /dev/grrl, and at least one hacker from one of the intro pieces in one of the books.

Honestly, I don't see the point in setting different build totals for people if they want to play a character that is outside the norm. If they want to play a kid in a japanese schoolgirl outfit that is a deadly assassin, why not? Are you really telling me that such things are any more over the top than real, live catgirls? Mechanically, is there any reason one should be fine, while the other is punished? No.

Now, if you want to have in-game consequences for those choices, go right ahead. Hell, just look at the flak /dev/ gets for being a corp brat!

You can make real live catgirl characters. It's called Surge. 

[Mirikon]

Or transgenic alteration. Or cyberware. Or...

Point being, you don't take any penalty for being a catgirl, other than the looks people give you, so why should there be penalties for playing a teen?

[All4BigGuns]

Or transgenic alteration. Or cyberware. Or...

Point being, you don't take any penalty for being a catgirl, other than the looks people give you, so why should there be penalties for playing a teen?

This is one of those cases when I could understand both sides, but more lean toward yours.

[crisses]

The point is that presumably player-characters develop their build points over time.  Heck, you want to run 400BP kids, again, I'm not stopping you.  I'm looking forward to childhood antics within the realm of Shadowrun.

[Irian]

In last edition, there were plenty of kids/teenagers running around, built on the same level as adult runners. They were called otaku.

And I remember more than one discussion where some people thought that this wasn't a good idea :-)

[CanRay]

Hell, there's benefits for being a Shadowbrat...

*Walks up to a Security Guard*  "Mister...  I'm lost and can't find my Mommy."  "Where did you see her last?"  "Behind you with a narcojet pistol.  Mister?  Are you asleep?  Good shot Mommy."