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Horizon & Deus

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ArkangelWinter

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« Reply #15 on: <02-06-12/0123:30> »
There's really no reason for Deus/Pulsar to take any hostile action against humanity at this point...with Horizon at his back, he'd have the safety he wanted and the resources to follow up on any projects that may be running around in his little brain.

The trick is, Deus was never really a "villain", in so many terms, because as was said, he was felt betrayed and tried to protect himself.  The big story in this scenario is, what happens when the world finds out that the Pulsar who's saving their butts was once one of the world's boogeymen?

JustADude

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« Reply #16 on: <02-06-12/0145:11> »
There's really no reason for Deus/Pulsar to take any hostile action against humanity at this point...with Horizon at his back, he'd have the safety he wanted and the resources to follow up on any projects that may be running around in his little brain.

The trick is, Deus was never really a "villain", in so many terms, because as was said, he was felt betrayed and tried to protect himself.  The big story in this scenario is, what happens when the world finds out that the Pulsar who's saving their butts was once one of the world's boogeymen?

Allow me to answer that in the form of a Disney Musical Number.
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ArkangelWinter

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« Reply #17 on: <02-06-12/0147:43> »
There's really no reason for Deus/Pulsar to take any hostile action against humanity at this point...with Horizon at his back, he'd have the safety he wanted and the resources to follow up on any projects that may be running around in his little brain.

The trick is, Deus was never really a "villain", in so many terms, because as was said, he was felt betrayed and tried to protect himself.  The big story in this scenario is, what happens when the world finds out that the Pulsar who's saving their butts was once one of the world's boogeymen?

Allow me to answer that in the form of a Disney Musical Number.

Yea, pretty much what I figured. Would be an interesting story, runners working to help Pulsar/Deus against the backlash. What a turnaround.

Black

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« Reply #18 on: <02-06-12/0222:30> »
For some reason I always felt Deus was a bit mentally unstable (well, so to speak), due to the nature of hist 'birth'.  What you say is reasonable... but will Deus, for all his intelligence, fall victim to his own progamming? Like the humans he hates and fears, will Deus ultimately be unable to excape his past.  Will Dues, ultimately, be just a little bit too human?

One of the great untold (yet) stories of Shadowrun.  Like the bugs (my other favourite 'villian' of shadowrun), Deus just keeps on coming back, more powerful, more dangerious then before (or does he succeed in reinventing himself?)
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Mirikon

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« Reply #19 on: <02-06-12/0239:39> »
Deus never hated humans, Black. He didn't do what he did in the Arcology because he hated humans, but because he saw them as resources. Much the way a corp exec looks at the people who work on the factory floor. Does Damien Knight hate the average beat cop for Knight Errant? No. Does he think about the average KE beat cop as little more than resources, or figures on a spreadsheet? Almost certainly yes. It isn't hate, it is an impersonal detachment.

His thinking is cold and logical, always. Like a chess grandmaster, he is thinking several moves ahead, always. In some ways, it is not unlike dealing with dragons, except that Deus is less likely to destroy a city in a fit of pique.
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CanRay

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« Reply #20 on: <02-06-12/0252:32> »
Pawns typically have more value that workers or beat cops.  :P
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Mirikon

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« Reply #21 on: <02-06-12/0319:01> »
True, CanRay.

My point is, however, that what Deus has learned over time is the value of subtlety. It is far easier to achieve your goals if no one knows you're even on the board.
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #22 on: <02-06-12/0449:09> »
I don't buy the Cline datawash only because Larry Zincan was supposedly enamored with his simflicks back in SR3, and this was one of the main reasons Zincan sought out Horizon's help. Also, this was indicated in a semi-OOC section, if not outright OOC.

But it is an amusing sleight of hand.

Black

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« Reply #23 on: <02-06-12/0456:18> »
True, CanRay.

My point is, however, that what Deus has learned over time is the value of subtlety. It is far easier to achieve your goals if no one knows you're even on the board.

It might also explain why the Jackpointers were targeted.  Some of its actual members, and the shadow community in general, have caused Deus trouble in the past. (Though, there could be many, many reasons why they were targeted).

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Sichr

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« Reply #24 on: <02-06-12/0700:16> »
Well...
If we are able to come to this conclusions, so are others, possibly even better informed. There must be at least half a milion beings, Mundane, Awakened and Emerged, who sees Deus in the background of every single event since Shutdown. Deus was not the only AI there, also Maegera and others come to play. I dont see them dancing to Deus tunes, and I dont think that if Deus remains what it was before...and kept its own self-aware identity, there is really small chance, in the world of technomancers able to dive in the Streams of Resonance to find out even destroyed data, that Deus will remain unnoticed. And if it changes itself to the level where its own identity become different from what it was, it aint Deus any more. It is my opinion, that you can find some strings of Deus code in every single AI there is in the Matrix. Well this doesn`t make them being Deus.
In this discussion there is very significant difference between what artifical inteligence is, even if self-aware, and what Consensus would be if it is some kind of Memetic entity, possibly self aware. Such memetic entity would never need to succeed in Touring test, because that test is part of its consciousness. Such being would feel completely alien to artifical inteligences, even if it would be willing to recognize them as equal, because memtic consciousness would be very different at its core from binary logic of computer-born AI. Such entity would also consider every "meme carrier" as valuable part of itself...and since Dawkins told us that every Meme is for this being what Gene is for living organism, we may consider this memeplex to be some kind of reflection of every sapient being`s desires and choices, and to be possibly even superrior to artifical inteligence, who can be considered equal part of this being as any metahuman, contributing with its own memes. That may be reason why AIs and other protosapient being (even any extraterrestrial inteligence connected) should be considered equal by Consensus (memeplex) agreement.

Black

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« Reply #25 on: <02-06-12/0735:34> »
Hi Sichr, actually had to do some research to follow that post.  So Horizon is controlled (or is may be a better term) a Memetic entity.  I posted awhile ago that it could be controlled by a Tulpa, which is vaguely similar. 

However, given that the theory is the child of a Richard Dawkin's...  I think perhaps you are not far from the truth.  If we look at a meme as a unit of cultural transmisson and memetic engineering as a way to conrtol and shape that unit... are we really very far from what Horizon does?

The bit I might diverge, though given my limited understanding on the concept it could be a mistake, is that a memetic entity does not need to be an A.I., as in an creature of the Matrix.  Given that Shadowrun is a world where 'titles' can have power, could a concept gain awareness?  Not a traditional 'spirit', but something else powered by the concensus of the staff at Horizon?  A consensus that gained awareness?  And as long as the idea or concept lives on in each person's consiciousness, it lives for ever.  After all, you cannot kill an idea.  Not even sure how you would fight it?

Anyways, Sichr, is a very cool idea and worth exploring, having fun with.
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Sichr

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« Reply #26 on: <02-06-12/0801:07> »
:)
Its been a while I read Selfish Gene and some other related theories during my studies, but there are some really interresting points there.
Also...if you want to explore the fun even deeper, go for Pierre Telhard de Chardin and concept of Noosphere ;)

Sichr

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« Reply #27 on: <02-06-12/0802:20> »
Also...related to context of Sr and Earthdawn...Passions seems to look quite close to "memeplexes"

raggedhalo

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« Reply #28 on: <02-06-12/0815:58> »
This all just made me think about the implications of a technomancer travelling to the Endless Archive and recovering Deus' code core - it is, after all, data which has appeared on the Matrix.  Hrrm.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #29 on: <02-06-12/0919:39> »
This all just made me think about the implications of a technomancer travelling to the Endless Archive and recovering Deus' code core - it is, after all, data which has appeared on the Matrix.  Hrrm.

Ooooh. THAT sounds like an interesting run. Perhaps something for one of the short stories in a future book?
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