[Wakshaani]

Should I post more of the 320 point characters? I have, like, thirty more of the durn things.

[All4BigGuns]

Should I post more of the 320 point characters? I have, like, thirty more of the durn things.

My preference would be not, personally, but such does not sound enjoyable in the slightest to me. I'd rather have a character that can actually be capable rather than hamstrung by artificially lowered point scales.

[Sipowitz]

So we had our first game and I didn't find 300 BP that much of a deterrent to a good gaming experience. My stats ended up mostly 2s and 3s (before cyberware / bioware enhancements), though I spent a lot of money on an 2 attribute enhancing pieces of cyberware (avoided Wired Reflexes. Essence cost is too high for me). I ended up with 2 init passes, and an 8 initiative when I can use the adrenal pump. Most of my dice pools are 5 to 6 dice, which gave me a decent amount to toss around. I usually ended up with at least 1 success.

So it's not power gaming, but it was fun and I got a lot more out of my character than I expected to get. And if you milk the negative qualities correctly, you can get a 335 point character out of it.

Anyone who hasn't tried it, should try it. Just for the experience of it.

Yeah thought it was fine.
[spoiler]
== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Pavel Cerny
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 6
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Elf Male Age 23
Height 2.0m Weight 54kg
Composure: 8
Judge Intentions: 8
Lift/Carry: 5 (30 kg/20 kg)
Memory: 6
Nuyen: 70

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 4
REA: 3
STR: 2
CHA: 5
INT: 3
LOG: 3
WIL: 3
EDG: 2
MAG: 4

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   6
Initiative:                6
IP:                        1
Astral Initiative:         6
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         7
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     10
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Active Skills ==
Assensing                  : 1                      Pool: 4
Automatics                 : 3 [Submachine Guns]    Pool: 7 (9)
Climbing                   : 1                      Pool: 3
Con                        : 1                      Pool: 9
Counterspelling            : 1                      Pool: 4
Etiquette                  : 1                      Pool: 9
Flight                     : 1                      Pool: 3
Gymnastics                 : 1                      Pool: 5
Infiltration               : 1                      Pool: 7
Intimidation               : 1                      Pool: 9
Leadership                 : 1                      Pool: 9
Negotiation                : 1                      Pool: 9
Perception                 : 1                      Pool: 4
Pilot Ground Craft         : 1 [Wheeled]            Pool: 4 (6)
Running                    : 1                      Pool: 3
Spellcasting               : 3 [Illusion]           Pool: 6 (11)
Swimming                   : 1                      Pool: 3


== Knowledge Skills ==
Area Knowledge: Marienbad  : 3                      Pool: 6
Bars and Clubs             : 2                      Pool: 5
Combat Tactics             : 2                      Pool: 5
Czech                      : N                      Pool: 0
English                    : 2                      Pool: 5
Magic Traditions           : 2                      Pool: 5
Magical Theory             : 2                      Pool: 5
Military                   : 1                      Pool: 4
Russian                    : 2                      Pool: 5
Underworld                 : 2                      Pool: 5

== Qualities ==
Changeling (Class II SURGE)
Critter Spook
Distinctive Style
Extravagant Eyes
Glamour
In Debt (25,000¥)
Low-Light Vision
Mentor Spirit (Cat)
Mystic Adept
Nasty Vibe
Records on File

== Spells ==
(Tradition: Black Magic, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA ()
Foreboding (Illusion)      DV: (F÷2)+2
Increase Reflexes (Limited) (Health) DV: (F÷2)+2
Stealth (Illusion)         DV: (F÷2)+1
Steam (Limited) (Combat)   DV: (F÷2)+3
Vehicle Mask (Illusion)    DV: (F÷2)-2

== Powers ==
Astral Perception

== Commlink ==
Hermes Ikon (4, 4, 3, 3)
   +Novatech Navi
   +AR Gloves
   +Trodes
   +Subvocal Microphone
   +Armor Case Rating 4

== Gear ==
Combat Fetish
Contact Lenses Rating 3
   +Smartlink
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 3
   +Vision Magnification
Earbuds Rating 3
   +Spatial Recognizer
   +Audio Enhancement Rating 2
Healing Fetish
Health Formulae (Heal)
Illusion Formulae (Hot Potato)
Illusion Formulae (Improved Invisibility)
Spellcasting Focus (Illusion) (bonded) Rating 1
[/spoiler]
Pavel came out just fine.

Personally I don't see the thrill behind rolling large dice pools, I like the chance to fail.

[Lansdren]

I'm currently in a game at a similar level although we did have the option of it being 600 karma rather then 300bp, but that was also using the new karma rules with stats being x5

With some thought and prep we came out with some fairly balanced characters and are having a really good time so its doable if thats what you want to do. Now our game is ganger level so YMMV

[Lethe]

I'm currently in a game at a similar level although we did have the option of it being 600 karma rather then 300bp, but that was also using the new karma rules with stats being x5

But even with the 600 karma and x5 rules, you can easily create a (non min-maxed) 400+bp character.

[Lansdren]

I would disagree, tradiationaly b is worth twice the karma and under the previous rules normal karmagen was only 750 not even a true double. This being the case a 600karma plus the increase in attribute costs would in my mind put it much closer to being equal.

I would say I've always found karmagen much more balanced in builds and less min maxed in practise

[Catadmin]

I don't get how karmagen could be less min-maxed. To my mind, if someone wants to min-max, they're going to find a way to do it regardless of what points system is used to build their characters. Min-maxing is more a function of how power players stack their 'ware, toys, specializations and spells / adept powers.

[Lethe]

I don't get how karmagen could be less min-maxed. To my mind, if someone wants to min-max, they're going to find a way to do it regardless of what points system is used to build their characters.

Thats true, if you really want to, you can. But BP rewards minmaxing players. Having 4 attributes at rating 5 and 4 attributes at rating 1 costs equally BP as having all 8 at 3. But its cheaper to increase from 1 to 3 than from 3 to 5. Some people call it karma efficient, those prefer the first option. In KarmaGen having the first option is much more expensive than the second one. Instead of having one attribute at 5 and the other at 1, you could have one at 4 and the other at 3 - one high point is worth two little points. So its more appealing to chose the second option. Similar for skills.

Of course you can still optimize a character to fill specific roles, but the tendency goes to generalization.

[Mirikon]

From what I've seen, BP promotes specialists, while karma promotes generalists. Then it comes down to a question of whether you want to be kick-ass at one or two things, or mediocre at best at several. Given the potential for Shadowrun to get very lethal, very quick, half-assing it is a good way to roll up new characters often.

[Crash_00]

I think what most people mean is that Karma gen doesn't encourage you to min/max. Sure it happens, but its not like in the BP system where many people worry more about karma efficiency than character concept. The BP system encourages you to keep you key scores softcapped (unless there at 10 or over in which case hardcapping them is actually karma efficient) and your other scores very low because low scores are so much easier to raise (1 att point (10 BP)is worth 20 karma, the cost to raise a 3 to a 4 with karma. A hardcap (25 BP) is worth 50 karma, the cost to raise a 9 to a 10 with karma). Tack on other things like specializations and maneuvers that are literally half cost with karma, and the BP system doesn't just encourage min/maxing, it heavily rewards it. With Karma Gen, those high point costs for high dice pools are the same at character creation and during play. I prefer to play high body characters (usually trolls and orks) and even I highly prefer Karma gen just for simplicity (everything costs the same always). I think the two systems confuse many newer players.

As far as actual characters go, you can make just as heavily specialized characters in karma gen as you can in BP. Usually you just have more options for your left over points.

[Fenris]

I remember when someone asked how much more powerful a 750 Karma character was over a 400 BP  character. I have a stock BP character nicknamed Bob the Ork to show ''not much if you know what to max and what not to on a BP character.'' It's just that the Karma character will be more rounded at other stuff, since the game has such strict hard-maxes on things. For example, Bob the Ork(a minmaxing example) had a 9 agility, from a soft maxed 5 and Restricted Gear: Muscle Toner 4. (I built him flat by the books, our own table doesn't use Availability restrictions at chargen, and prefer to play by a 'take what fits' method.) Bob also had soft maxed Pistols and Automatics at 5, with specializations and smartlinks. He'd have ended up with the same under Karmagen, but he'd have had more ''extra'' skills, like First Aid, or a few extra social skills above his Etiquette, or whatnot. If I had went crazy hard max on Bob, he'd have had the same Agility and same Aptitude of 7 at some firearm as a 750 Karma counterpart, but again, the counterpart would have been more well rounded in other areas.

I actually made a few 320 characters(a team) in that old thread that Wak had on DS, though it'll take awhile to dig them up. They turned out rather well, but were pretty specialized. I've also done 300 point characters before. It's definitely possible to work them, but as a player you need to be pretty clever about choosing your encounters, and as a GM you have to be careful as well not to accidentally overwhelm them. I say this from experience-I have gone a bit too far as a GM a few times on normal 400 BP characters and I didn't realize I was. If they had been less, I'd have creamed them without wanting to. But you can get some pretty nice things going with tactics-I've managed to provide challenges to powerful characters with considerably weaker ones by using numbers, terrain, and tactics.

[SteelFox]

I think it actually depends on group preferences - like a difficulty level on a videogame. Some like to break skulls barehanded, crash megacorp servers and melt steel walls from the start (which gives the players a feeling of power), while others like to really work, think and bleed to get somewhere (which gives the players a feeling of accomplishment - when they succeed).

You also should consider how important dice rolling is to your game. If you're going to make a combat heavy campaign (like merc or military action), probably a low BP cost would make the players feel weak and fragile (if not dead), struggling to accomplish even the most basic challenges. If you're going for a story with more, say, social finesse or intellectual challenges, the players can use good interpretation, strategy and careful planning to overcome their character's low-to-average stats limitations (I was going to use a Superman/Batman analogy here, but nevermind that =P).

Finally, it should be taken into account the frequency of game sessions. The sense of character accomplishment and progress evaporates quickly when you have to wait a month or more for a new adventure. In this case, the advantages of a low BP game would not be felt by the players; these games would certainly be more fun with powerful characters.

All that said, I'm actually playing a 320 BP campaing for a while and it's going very well. We had even harsher restrictions, like almost no nuyen (made sense story-wise) so it was a real victory when our hacker could finally afford his datajack and his new 1250¥ commlink, or when our shaman learned from an experienced elder the basic aspects of Banishing, or when I found a lowly Remington 750 hidden in an abandoned pawn shop during a run. It felt so good when we finally had amassed the firepower, gear, skills and knowledge to take out a powerful enemy that gave us trouble from the very beginning of the campaign.

Today, after about 40+ games, we are every bit as powerful as most seasoned runners out there, and are damn proud to have climbed from the gutter to the penthouse. And I still keep my beloved Remington.

[All4BigGuns]

I think it actually depends on group preferences - like a difficulty level on a videogame. Some like to break skulls barehanded, crash megacorp servers and melt steel walls from the start (which gives the players a feeling of power), while others like to really work, think and bleed to get somewhere (which gives the players a feeling of accomplishment - when they succeed).

You also should consider how important dice rolling is to your game. If you're going to make a combat heavy campaign (like merc or military action), probably a low BP cost would make the players feel weak and fragile (if not dead), struggling to accomplish even the most basic challenges. If you're going for a story with more, say, social finesse or intellectual challenges, the players can use good interpretation, strategy and careful planning to overcome their character's low-to-average stats limitations (I was going to use a Superman/Batman analogy here, but nevermind that =P).

Finally, it should be taken into account the frequency of game sessions. The sense of character accomplishment and progress evaporates quickly when you have to wait a month or more for a new adventure. In this case, the advantages of a low BP game would not be felt by the players; these games would certainly be more fun with powerful characters.

All that said, I'm actually playing a 320 BP campaing for a while and it's going very well. We had even harsher restrictions, like almost no nuyen (made sense story-wise) so it was a real victory when our hacker could finally afford his datajack and his new 1250¥ commlink, or when our shaman learned from an experienced elder the basic aspects of Banishing, or when I found a lowly Remington 750 hidden in an abandoned pawn shop during a run. It felt so good when we finally had amassed the firepower, gear, skills and knowledge to take out a powerful enemy that gave us trouble from the very beginning of the campaign.

Today, after about 40+ games, we are every bit as powerful as most seasoned runners out there, and are damn proud to have climbed from the gutter to the penthouse. And I still keep my beloved Remington.

I don't see how you found that enjoyable in the least. To me it sounds unbelievably tedious and boring.

[FastJack]

I think it actually depends on group preferences - like a difficulty level on a videogame. Some like to break skulls barehanded, crash megacorp servers and melt steel walls from the start (which gives the players a feeling of power), while others like to really work, think and bleed to get somewhere (which gives the players a feeling of accomplishment - when they succeed).

You also should consider how important dice rolling is to your game. If you're going to make a combat heavy campaign (like merc or military action), probably a low BP cost would make the players feel weak and fragile (if not dead), struggling to accomplish even the most basic challenges. If you're going for a story with more, say, social finesse or intellectual challenges, the players can use good interpretation, strategy and careful planning to overcome their character's low-to-average stats limitations (I was going to use a Superman/Batman analogy here, but nevermind that =P).

Finally, it should be taken into account the frequency of game sessions. The sense of character accomplishment and progress evaporates quickly when you have to wait a month or more for a new adventure. In this case, the advantages of a low BP game would not be felt by the players; these games would certainly be more fun with powerful characters.

All that said, I'm actually playing a 320 BP campaing for a while and it's going very well. We had even harsher restrictions, like almost no nuyen (made sense story-wise) so it was a real victory when our hacker could finally afford his datajack and his new 1250¥ commlink, or when our shaman learned from an experienced elder the basic aspects of Banishing, or when I found a lowly Remington 750 hidden in an abandoned pawn shop during a run. It felt so good when we finally had amassed the firepower, gear, skills and knowledge to take out a powerful enemy that gave us trouble from the very beginning of the campaign.

Today, after about 40+ games, we are every bit as powerful as most seasoned runners out there, and are damn proud to have climbed from the gutter to the penthouse. And I still keep my beloved Remington.

I don't see how you found that enjoyable in the least. To me it sounds unbelievably tedious and boring.

It is the stories you tell, not the enemies who fell.

[SteelFox]

It is the stories you tell, not the enemies who fell.

May I put this in my sig? =P

About the play style; of course, to each his own!

Games that almost exclusively revolve around super-elite-dangerous-unrealistic missions right off the bat, emptily destroying entire criminal syndicates, vampire cadres and corporate security by the buckets, solo-killing dragons with assault rifles and grenades or hacking a megacorp's central node single-handedly like a hot knife through butter are unbelievably tedious and boring to me, as well (I'm not implying that anyone here plays that way). =]

This approach reminds me too much of the cliché anti-hero ultracool trenchcoat-wearing kickass one-man-army (or four, five-men-army) so frequently found in modern media. Oh, so dreadfully dull.

This video comes to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqz5dbs5zmo&ob=av3e

But again, to each his own. Using another video game analogy: Some like Call of Duty, some like The Witcher and very few people like both equally.
Fortunately, Shadowrun can accomodate all kinds of playstyles. With some minor tweaking, I'd heartily approve Sipowitz' proposal.