[Kulthozuer]

Ok so I am fairly new to SR as in I have only been playing since 4th edition and only have the core book, street magic and arsenal. I have read them most all the way through and certain sections multiple times, so I know the rules fairly well. I have DM'ed alot before Shadowrun and I'd like to say I know how to DM. My problem is I have a friend who is also an experianced DM and very experianced in RPG's in general (They are kinda his thing). Now he usually well get pretty testy if I tell him he cant do something or he gets "punishment" for doing things in game and as a DM I do not like to punish character rather I talk to them out of game to explain to them what they are doing is unreasonable or wrong, but with him he doesn't really listen and gets angry. Recently we started a campaign where he plays a magician following the Black Magic tradition from street magic. His character follows all the rules but the problem is he learned all combat and manipulation spells at character creation and basicly geared his character towards being a very powerful magician, he had a good backstory and I worked with him on having some different spells that were fair and fit his backstory but he tends to abuse his spells by using control thoughts or control actions alot. I have stopped him by throwing security guards and other characters with high willpower at him that he cant control but he usually complains. I was just wondering if anyone had any advice or optional rules they use to prohibit the use of powerful magic like this alot, I don't wanna just have him arrested because he uses it obviously in public situations because he will complain and I want him to have fun, I have actually had to have him arrested for using control thoughts in a populated mall at a force of 5, which he complained about. Yeah hes pretty unreasonabe with what he does and I've talked to him about it I just would like some sort of optional rules at character creation or advice for making him limit his characters spells or magical ability while still being fair.
Thanks
   -Kulthozuer

[Chrona]

I'll let others discuss the main issues of punishing a tantruming player and "if he's just going to complain about everything he isn't RPing SR, he's RPing self-centered the game." and  offer a couple things.

Background count: when an area is heavily aspected towards a different tradition (such as a different magicians lodge) or a lack of Man you can lower the magic attribute of those inside.
Foci: if he uses them have him deal with (a) addiction or (b) theft.

I've had a control thoughts mage, I used/abused it A LOT But there were normally a huge amount of enemies and I had 1IP. I now GM more then play.
I can see it from both sides to a degree but the problem is he wants no challenge.
Remember, control spells get mulishness willpower tests over time and need sustaining,
they're far from absolute.

[lurkeroutthere]

Well it sounds like you have some player issues which there isn't a lot of help for.  But if he is publicly using control thoughts against people that will be treated as magical assault, which the legal authorities take a dim view on, and doubly so for mental manipulation spells. He will be arrested or shot dead by trigger happy security. If arrested he's going to be pretty much out of play.

Now in my group we've tweaked the rules a bit so mental manipulation spells are resisted with willpower + charisma. Similarly we have banned control actions and we allow targets ordered to do something they'd never do (kill your son, rush the barricade) under control thoughts a willpower + charisma test to resist the command and stand there.

On the whole though you probably best off just including more magical security in encounters or getting the player to go with something different. Mind magic is something that players love to use but would have a fit if it were used against them in turn.

[Exodus]

Mind magic is something that players love to use but would have a fit if it were used against them in turn.

Absolutely, I repeatedly remind my players that every shtick that they bring to the table can be used against them.

The first game I ever GM'd included a character with plenty of mental manipulation spells. The same player threw a small fit when the team's main muscle cracked him in the back of the head with a stun baton because of a control actions.

[UmaroVI]

It sounds like your problem isn't really with the magical balance but with the player being an ass. Using high-force spells is blatantly obvious and using Control Thoughts on someone in public is about as bad as pulling out a gun and shooting at them as far as the view any witnesses or authorities will take. It is a Perception (1) test to notice the use of a Force 5 spell. You were completely right to have people come to arrest him for that.

[nakano]

A couple of thoughts with regard to this.

1)  If he can do it, so can the opposition.  Not on him, but on that big nasty sammie with moderate willpower and the assault rifle standing right beside him.   
2)  In my game, the Black Magic tradition has all sorts of down sides.  Distrust, religious fanatics, etc.  Give him a steady dose of that.
3)  If folks know that he is using this sort of magic alot, make meets with Johnson's more challenging.  What Johnson in their right mind would meet face to face with this sort of runner.  Virtual meets could become the norm for the team.  And in a virtual meet there is no Astral Sight to give added info on the Johnson, and getting a read on the Johnson in other ways becomes far more difficult as well.
4)  Beyond that, magicial security is an important part of all forms of security, and the general rule of thumb in my games is geek the mage first.  If he does not have masking, he should generally become target #1.

[JoeNapalm]

You are the GM. Let him state his case, when he has an objection, but if you disagree, your decision is final. When you are used to being GM, it can be hard not to have absolute power...I taught most of my friends how to play, and when they GM, I let them know to tell me if I am being a back-seat Arbiter.

As for the Mind Control spells - the best way to deal with someone who constantly abuses a power is to give them plenty of rope to hang themselves with. Let him abuse it - and set him up.

Set up a whole adventure with opportunities to mind control the wrong people. The daughter of a Yakuza boss, a member of a powerful Magic secret society, a serial killer (get this one recorded on Security cameras - then blackmail him or send a special Federal Anti-Mind Control Task Force after him), or best of all - someone on an important errand for, say, a Dragon or very powerful Mage. The errand boy is ALREADY under mind control...heh...and their master doesn't like interference.

From the sounds of it, this guy has it coming. You are the GM...don't let him wheedle out of it. If he has really been disruptive, I would probably kill the character...he mind controls the SR equivalent of a Mind Flayer and it eats his brain. If he built the character around the premise of Mind Control he won't stop until you do something pretty drastic.

If you are feeling tolerant, just slap him down...but don't do it gently. The Bad Guys let him live, but he gets Mind Controlled back or Geased or Cursed or otherwise enslaved and now he works for them.

Oh, and you can't Mind Control a sniper...just saying...Mr. Johnson likes to meet in the park, and detecting a Force 5 spell being cast only takes one hit with Perception.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[JoeNapalm]

As a counterpoint to my own post - allow me to clarify something.

I'm not saying that the OP (or anyone else here) does this, but it is important to distinguish between a "problem player" and a well-designed, highly skilled character. Characters should be allowed to succeed on their own merits - if the player is using their brain and playing to their characters strengths, there is nothing wrong with them succeeding. Heck, if their character is really THAT GOOD, they should make it look easy...most of the time.

At a certain stage in GM development it is not uncommon for a GM to adopt an "us vs them" philosophy, wherein they feel that if the PCs are succeeding all the time, then there is a problem with the scenario or with the players. The key is to remember that the GMs job to make the game FUN - there is a balancing act of challenge vs reward that must be maintained, but at the end of the day...the hard fought day...the PCs should (if they play smart and well) succeed.

If you determine that there is a problem and that a character must be dealt with, it must at least APPEAR to be within the letter of the rules. Yes, GMs can bend and break rules as they see fit, but you DO NOT want to screw directly with a PC while doing so.

Example - back in the day, playing CP2020 (SR without happy Elves...or singing birds, for that matter) I built a pretty durn good Street Samurai (called a Solo in CP). He wasn't over the top, cyberzombie, Instoppatroll or anything - he was just tough, skilled, fast, aggressive, and most of all...TACTICAL. After many sessions, the budding GM observed that my Solo was impervious to most small arms.

I made the argument that he had paid a steep price to become so - Humanity (Essence) loss for all the cyberware, money for the custom armor, etc.

To the weefle GM, though, he saw the Solos ability to stop a 9mm with his skull as a threat to the game balance, so he took action - knocked the character out with a drug and stripped him of all Cyber.

Problem was not only that he did it, but how he did it. He had a non-combative semi-aquaintence scratch him with a neurotoxin laced ring. The Solo had boosted reflexes and mad kung fu skills and specifically stated he wasn't letting the weirdo get near him, had skin that would stop a katana (let alone a needle) and had specifically built in anti-toxin blood filtering Cyberware to stop this exact sort of poison.

My character's first act upon waking up, sans cyber, was to commit suicide. Not as a player tantrum, but because that PC had based his entire personality around being a superhuman Cyborg. In RP terms, it was his entire sense of self.

So - long story short - before dealing with a problem player, make sure they really are a problem, and if you take action, do your homework. The reason I am usually so quick to suggest killing a PC in this situation is that is often LESS sticky than maiming the character and taking away an ability that is a core concept for the player.

/rambling diatribe

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Kulthozuer]

Thanks for all your help guys, he hasn't been to bad lately but in past campaigns hes completely messed up games by doing stuff like that mall thing. I think if i notice he is having his way too much with his manipulation spells (Which probably happen) Ill have him have a run in with some not so friendly magicians or someone else who happens to know a bit about magic to show him he cant just go around flauntinf hes a magician and not expect anyone to stop him. One problem I think with our group I'm trying to fix is that play serious RPG games and follow the rules but my friends joke around alot out of game which makes it difficult to keep a serious attitude and people like my friend who are jokers will sometimes joke around IN game, I will see how it gos as we are playing monday night and I'll plan to have his next little excursion off on himself which he makes alot to kill people with mental magic for little reason end with some toxic magicians or something if he keeps trying to control thoughts everyone.

[Tagz]

Getting to the conversation late but I have a few things to suggest.

Others have mentioned Background Count, that's a good one, but overused the player will feel unfairly penalized.  Use it in locations it makes sense for it to be there.

The REAL deterrent is going to be the role playing and setting.  Mental manipulation is viewed by many/most people in the Shadowrun world as similar to rape.  It's denying a person their will and dominating them for your own purposes.  The character doing this regularly might get a pass if the victims are very bad people, the cause is just, or it's in self defense, but otherwise... Yeah, he could quickly develop a bad rep.  First, it's a  social taboo to most people in the SR universe.  Second, how do you trust a person who can change your mind by force?  How do you know that  he/she hasn't been doing it already?  Did you really agree to pay that much for that run because it was worth it, or was it because of an implanted suggestion?

The next big thing is that magic is fairly obvious when cast at a strong force.  I don't have my rule book in front of me but if I recall from memory the threshold to notice magic as it is cast is (6 - Force) vs Perception.  So a Force 5 spell needs only 1 hit to notice.  If cast in a mall like you said, then someone should notice it.  After all, isn't there a group bonus for tests like perception?  +1 for each member up to a certain amount.  Someone will notice and tell security.  Security will want to see his ID, spellcasting license and know what he cast and why.  If everything doesn't come up squeaky clean you can bet that they'll get a security mage to check things out like spell auras and signatures.  Maybe they'll do that even if it was squeaky clean, depends on the rules of the location.

Finally, many mental manipulations don't go unnoticed by the victim themselves.  Influence, Mod Mood, Control Thoughts, they won't (not without a test at least), but Control Actions and the like, the person sees themselves doing things out of their own control, etc.  This knowledge can be dangerous.  If left alive they're going to tell someone of course, as they don't want people to think them traitors.  Again the mage will get signatures,  etc unless the character took time to erase them.  Magic is pretty easy to track really, that's why there are so many metamagics to hide and mask, but  a lot of GMs overlook this.  Sometimes it's because the corp knows it's a waste of money and resources to track down runners for a run completed, but sometimes the corp does think it's worth it for some reason.

Anyhow, it's up to you to use the tools that balance magic.  There's little that prevents abuse in the moment, it's the consequences that will make magic users think twice.  Course, that's equally true of gun toting characters.  Nothing stops them from putting a gun to the head of a mall  cop and ordering them around.  Nothing except the consequences of that action.  Magic isn't any different, only just a little easier to conceal but not by all that much.  Introduce consequences that are fair and it will make for a better game.

[lurkeroutthere]

I think as you've correctly identified one of the biggest problems witht he way he's using the spells on is who he's using them on. Using mind control on a guy who was going to rob or kill you, in a back alley in the barrens? Not a big deal, he got what's coming, he was going to hurt you anyway and he doesn't have legal or extra legal standing.

Using it against a "real person" who has a sin and an expectation of being protected from the scawy things in the sixth world and who wasn't a threat, or using it agaisnt someone with extra-legal positions of power like a J, syndicate member etc should cause problems, and if he's causing a snit because of that you've got a problem player or a game that's not right for the group.

[Charybdis]

Ways to limit magical effectiveness:
- Background counts  (useful, but shouldn't be overused)
- Security mages with Counterspelling (even a few hits on counterspelling can make a massive difference
- Groups of people in different directions (can only mind control one guard/group if they're outside of the mob mind casting...then other guards notice something is wrong and act accordingly)
- Perception: others will notice the mage, and the old adage of 'Geek the Mage first' is still true,....
- Sustaining takes concentration: Those -2 dice can stack up real quick...unless the PC has good perception, they may not know what's going on.... if they're in a firefight, they can't really dodge anymore...or stealth away etc etc.
- Spirit patrols: These things notice spellcasting at pretty much all times, and will either alert local magic security, or move to attack (or both!)

Ways to limit mind control in particular:
- Need to use extra actions to give the controlled PC's instructions: Control Thoughts/Control Actyins explicitly have 1 Complex action to cast, then additional Simple actions to command... Even with Multiple IP's, it takes time to use your new mind-slaves
- High willpower aside, mental manipulations get additional Willpower (+ Counterspelling) checks if the target is asked to do something completely against their nature... If dominating yakuza types (who would rather slice off their own pinkie than disobey orders), that's basically a Willpower test for every initiative pass of every order (and the test happens BEFORE they take their actions). Domination will last a combat turn at most....

Repercussions from using magic:
- Legality: As others have said, it can be noticed at the time and tracked to the mage as a crime (equivalent of rape)
- Assensing: Magic use leaves a signature, and if reported that signature can be used to Ritually Track back to to the spellcaster.... if you've mind-controlled someone important, then they WILL track you down....

[Kulthozuer]

He walked into the headquarters of the company that they were planning on assissinated the VP of, told them all about everything concerning the team and there plans, that he was a shadowrunner, about the job and where everyone lives and everything he had on them. Needless to say this did not pan out well for anyone including and especially him, I feel it's my duty as a DM to not ignore this event and kick him out as hes playing in the rules and at this point NO ONE is having fun cause of his shit. That shadowrun game is over I ws really excited over the premise of the campaign for a long time and it didn't last long at all. At this point I love shadowrun more than any RPG i've ever read or played and I am seriously doubting Im going to DM again, certainly never with him.

I understand if your all going to say well you shoulda just not let him do that its out of character and that it ruined the game cause alot of the characters died because of it (By the way they still accomplished their mission because the other characters where trying) but there was like one person left after that. And now half the people never wana play shadowrun again. I feel lovely right now.

[Chrona]

He walked into the headquarters of the company that they were planning on assissinated the VP of, told them all about everything concerning the team and there plans, that he was a shadowrunner, about the job and where everyone lives and everything he had on them. Needless to say this did not pan out well for anyone including and especially him, I feel it's my duty as a DM to not ignore this event and kick him out as hes playing in the rules and at this point NO ONE is having fun cause of his shit. That shadowrun game is over I ws really excited over the premise of the campaign for a long time and it didn't last long at all. At this point I love shadowrun more than any RPG i've ever read or played and I am seriously doubting Im going to DM again, certainly never with him.

I understand if your all going to say well you shoulda just not let him do that its out of character and that it ruined the game cause alot of the characters died because of it (By the way they still accomplished their mission because the other characters where trying) but there was like one person left after that. And now half the people never wana play shadowrun again. I feel lovely right now.

Why the frag did the drekhole do that!?

[Kulthozuer]

T_T
He is trying to apologize right now, I dont want to hear it. Its impossible playing with him. I honestly can't say why he did it obviously no one in the world can believe that to be a good plan. He is my best friend and I've never known him to intentionally do anything to harm or anger anyone intentionally but I can see no other reason for someone doing that than ruining the game so I dont know.