[Frankie the Fomori]

I‘m designing a run that would take players out into the wild near Seattle I will call it an extraction but very loosely because they are retrieving a data storage unit from a victim of a harpy attack. The party will be running with a larger group of NPC's across the wilderness, encountering one Horned Bear, a very difficult climb up a Mount Si, then up the hay stack at the top. the Harpy colony is about 100 harpies strong, which means lots of close in fighting, each player will have about 7-12 harpies to deal with....I just finished rolling out the NPC's combat turns to make sure it is A: a doable combat B: how many harpies they would have left to handle. Now extraction is Base 20,000$ per runner with variables....and though the combat is hard, and the Johnson wants any other wild life handle in none violent means (fight the bear to first blood) they will encounter and catch Vitas 3 which they will then have to endure. So I am thinking it should be a larger payout, do you have any suggestions?

Edit: to understand the harshness of the run, 2 NPC's fall on the mountain (one dies), two fall to attacks by the harpies, two more fail to survive the VITAS after the fourth test in 48 hours. So out of the 7 NPC's with the group, 2 survive! All are 500 BP builds.

[Sonarean]

From the sound of things, the runners have already done their job.  If that's the case, pay them the negotiated price and be done with it.

If the runner's demand better payment (and they likely will), have them negotiate with the Johnson again.  They'll likely hold the storage unit hostage until they get a number they are happy with.

Out of curiosity, where did you find the "base 20,000 + variables" number?  I will be starting up a game soon and have no idea how to price my runs.  Is this something you came up with or is it from a book?

[Frankie the Fomori]

lol, no I have no team to actually do the run with...I am only the lonely now in Seattle. But i like to create stuff, so I am working up a number of runs, and this will be one of them.....Whenever i run a game I handle all NPC combat before the game...and note the results....I hate to slow down games that should be centered around the PC's. The payout table is in 3ed companion

Run
Assassination 5,000
Bodyguard/Security 200 /day
Burglary 2,000
Courier Run 1,000
Datasteal 20% value of the data
Distraction 1,000
Destruction 5,000
Enforcement 1,000
Encryption/Decryption 200 per MP
Extraction 20,000
Hacking 1,000 * Host's Security Value
Investigation 200/day
Smuggling Run 5,000

I think the 20,000 is to low though, that is what is bothering me. This may be one of the most deadly runs I have sent a team against. While playing it out I have a survival rate of about 20-40%. The PC's will not be forced into it. I always go into a night with 3-5 storylines running so if they turn down a run down then no worries. But I want the payout to = the risk and then make it a little more to make them forget about the risk lol. They are going after a hefty bit of information for an unknown Corp (well I know lol) and I may set up a whole story line centered on these events.

[Critias]

The PC's haven't done anything yet -- if I'm understanding the post right -- it's just the NPC's he's made some rolls for (to gauge the danger of the climb, the danger of the fight with Harpies, etc).

I wouldn't consider this to be an Extraction, because those generally are, well, kidnappings/escort duty rolled into one.  An Extraction, in Shadowrun parlance, is a job wherein you go onto -- as a for instance -- Renraku turf to steal a Renraku employee (one worth stealing), and then take them back to your Fuchi or Ares or whatever Mr. Johnson, who now has himself a new top-tier researcher. 

This is...more of an object retrieval, albeit one that's apparently pretty dangerous.  Depending on how far the trip is, how long it's likely to take, etc, I'd say 20,000 might still be a fair amount (a little high for some groups, but it depends on how far into the campaign things are) of pay, don't get me wrong...but it's more of a smuggling run/escort/destruction mish-mash than an Extraction, though.

[Welshman]

Unless the Johnson knows they are going to catch Vitas, don't factor that in. Sometimes bad things happen.

Remember, you know what will happen, but the players don't and even the Johnson doesn't always know.

On the flip side, I like your idea for pre-rolling NPC combat. Nice trick to save time.

[Frankie the Fomori]

Yeah I like to narrate that action to the pc' s while there fighting, it also helps that a group can really go in no wrong direction while I gm. I have a folder with NPC's and adventures for every system I have run. I can adapt as the pc's play out there stories. I also like to use cell phones and if my players have laptops then I give them little data sticks that I have placed information on. Also I use things like msn for matrix work. I am a slow typer so I write out descriptions before hands then send them to the hacker there are still some thing handle via dialogue but it really seems to make the hacker's job seem totally cool to the other pc's. All of a sudden the hacker is like hey guys I got this type of data, what have you been doing?

[Walks Through Walls]

Though I can see the upsides to it I don't like the idea of this type of job pays X. There are too many variables to have a set price. If it is the team that is saying this is what we charge that could be different.

The one down side to prerolling and then narrating the NPC fight scenes is it can make the players feel like bit roles instead of the stars. I played in another RPG where the GM regularly did this and I almost always walked away thinking why was I even there?

[Frankie the Fomori]

I only do this when I have NPC's that are on the teams side, it allows me to make sure that I have not ramped up the Adventure to much or that these NPC's are too much of a over kill, and it keeps the game going smooth and quick. I will never allow anything I do to over shadow my PC's, it is a thing i once did when I was  teen and figured out with feedback that it is one of the worst kind of mistakes to make as a GM.

When you are dealing with 3 second combat rounds I want my PC's to feel that it is going quick, so while they are rolling away I give them little bits of information about what is going on around them (like snuffy the mage Bio just flat lined, or fellow ancient ganger just got tossed off the building). I leave very little time for them to adjust tactics after combat is started....My player will be told about this before hand, so you will see there is several reaction/action maneuvers set up before hand. Though I rely on combat to move the plot line I make sure my PC's understand once it happens they have better be prepared because combat is very lethal for me.

I like to think of it in terms of what we did while I was prepping my team to go down range. Muscle memory takes about 2-3000 repetitions for an action to be second nature, it meant long hours of building mock wooden buildings all over FT Campbell and running my team through them again and again. Same with first aid combat lanes, over and over till everything was reaction/action....very little thought involved.


I understand that this is a game and real life has very little impute, but so far when I have had players they have responded very well with how I run things. I give my team time to do dry runs, and reward this prep work almost more than the actual mission. Allot of the time we find that there is little violence once there team enters a corporation, they move quick and regardless if they are running lethal ammo or stick and shock rounds they find their targets have little time to respond to their aggression.  Like I keep it hard for my PC’s I also keep it real with a corp.’s response time. If my PC’s go in and perform to this standard then it is very rare that any response will be quick enough to interrupt there plans.

[Wayfinder]

I totally agree that combat should be quick response. If it is happening in 3 seconds the players shouldn't be able to debate for ten minutes on who they are shooting first. lol

I've also used the idea of graduating response times for security levels. Just makes sense that a security team in a public office building will take longer to respond than a high security secret research facility. I give the team a little leeway if they make a very quick decisive and quiet plan. A bust in and run however will get a quick and deadly response.

I've never used prerolled NPC combat. Seems to me that even a simple ambush could be totally undone by unconventional character actions. In the run you described my first thought was actually to fly in and parachute/rappel to the harpies location. If the players were to leave the NPCs behind (cause the transport wouldn't hold that many etc.) wouldn't all that rolling before hand be in vain?

[Frankie the Fomori]

There will be some controls on how the PC's can enter the area first being the provisions of the mission that the Johnson lays down. Things like do not engage wild like unless it is life and death situation, not explosions or flame spells, and sense they are approaching the Harpies which are known carries of VITAS-3 then they will have a time limit to get back off the mountain and into the city to make the drop off. They will also have to arrange their own quarantine and Anti viral meds.

I have hiked up Mount Si sense i was a little boy, it starts at about 600 feet and climbs to about 4100 feet over 4 miles taking a normal adult about 4 hours. In my best shape I ruck ran up it in just a little over an hour so even with the challenges i plan on throwing at them they should be able to get up in about 3 hours down in half that time. The bear they will need to engage on both directions, so that will be a pain for after such a large battle.

Now i will not play Mt. Si on what I know I'm going to change it up and allow the awakened world to use its magic and change some known Features. I have several maps of the terrain and depending on how much digging the PC's do will decide which map and information they are given. If they go without much data then yeah it changes things up, but if they do even a little digging they will find that a massive free spirit Air elemental has claimed that Air space as his own, he allows any awakened animal to enter but anything reeking of meta-humanity will be a target. Also there are approaches of the mountain that has changed instead of the four miles hike I am used to they will find Cliffs and Brambles, large areas that they will have to block out as they ascend the Mt.

For those that have not dealt with VITAS-3 it is a killer. If there protections get breached then it is pretty much a death sentence for low body NPC and PC’s alike. Though the players will have edge, so that may make the difference.
 

[Critias]

If the Johnson knows he's throwing them against VITAS carriers (since he's sending them in to pick up an object from a harpy attack), why wouldn't he supply them with anti-viral medical care?  If for no other reason than...I don't know...to prevent a friggin' VITAS outbreak (which could also endanger him, at the pick-up/payoff)?

Also, if you're concerned about pay...don't forget that many places offer a bounty on harpies (because of their VITAS carrying).  Industrious PCs might be able to make some extra cash that way.

[Frankie the Fomori]

Second is a great point lol, did not even think about that

First is already thought out, and if there is an outbreak then the Johnson would not mind at all. But I will not bore you with those details, as it leads into another plot line. Also though I will always provide expense fees on top of the normal run I almost never have my Johnson provide additional equipment. All my runs demand the PC's to prepare for them, to include any medical care, magic over sight, matrix support, riggers, and smugglers. They will know beforehand that there will be a second negotiation once the team knows the expenses they will meet and what the Johnson will authorize, this is not a sit down meet. just a quick contact, supply total amount...if it meets with a set amount that the Johnson has been given in order to see this through the all is gravy. If not then the Johnson tales them that X amount is covered, if they want to continue then the rest is out of pocket. I also allow this amount to include cost of damage equipment, spent ammo and Burnt programs.

It allows the runners an understanding of what is expected from them, a small retainer because they are scaring off a local gang because they have decided to lean on the wrong business owner means that if the PC's want to bring in APDS ammo, Drones, and high cost explosives then it is out of their pocket. But if they are running against Boeing plant in Auburn then they may get about 5-20,000 cash but have an expense account that works into the 10-100,000$ of equipment they may burn or need to accomplish the Job.

In the end my runners are expected to live up to their current reputation, have the skills needed to get by, and the foresight to plan out there runs. Thank you for the feedback everyone, i really appriciate it

[Angelone]

I think the payout table is a joke. There might be some kind of modifer I keep missing, but seriously? Look at some of those.

Johnson: I'll give you 5k to kill Damian Knight.
Runners: 
Johnson: What? That's the going rate.

Even if those are the payouts for green runners it might be understandable. There should be some kind of modifer's based on the teams experience level (kinda like in Missions) and how tough or high profile the job is.

[Frankie the Fomori]

These are just base line prices, instead if thinking killing knight is were 5 grand starts think of poor old Mrs smith who just found the love of her life and needs to off the last love of her life! With all jobs take in account the value of the target, combined with the amount of security, and the chance of expossure and figure out the final price.

Critias: great idea on the bounty, netting the survivors about 200K to split

[Angelone]

Why have it at all then? I realize that the prices are the low end. The way it's presented however it's misleading to inexperienced gms making them thing that's the price no matter what.

As a side note I wonder what would be the payout for whacking old Damian