[bobo69]

Lung vs. Ryumyo.

Differing styles.

Lung(China): teacjher , long term view.

Ryumyo(Japan): the student. Short term view.

Lung is probably the longest lived Eastern Dragon. As said earlier, Lung was already an ancient great dragon during Earthdawn.

[Stormdrake]

I have to disagree with the idea that if the Greats need to gather more mana than it is not a natural occurance.  The example of Lung's former student indicates that it maybe possible but that he is trying to speed it up rather than wait for the mana level to increase naturally to a level where if he is ready they could transform.  I think Lung is ready for such a transformation but needs to wait till the mana level increases to a certain point.  His former student tried to jump start his own transformation which may have failed because he was not ready.   This is all just home grown stuff of course which I raised as an interesting "what if?"

[Sichr]

what about becoming free of their fysical needs and body, transforming them into mataplannar beeings. They should not care about horrors any more, and with the bridge to metaplanes close one day, they can stay freely in one of them or travel between metaplanes without the "Station Earth"

[FoxBoy]

I would think the dragons have a lot to be afraid of when it comes time for the scourge, even an astral one like GhostWalker. If I don't miss my guess, we're talking some insanely high background counts, and that does affect dragons. Horrors on the other hand, thrive in it. You don't want to go messing with a horror on it's home turf unless you have your will up to date.

And for all things considered, a minor horror called a shedim can break the 'law' of magic that prevents resurrection, though it does it in it's own corrupt way. If that's what a minor horror can do...

What can a major one do?

[Critias]

What can a major one do?

"Yes."

[The_Gun_Nut]

Point of interest:

Shedim are not Horrors.  They are more along the lines of psychic entities that simply animate the body and walk it around.  In a higher magic field they can attempt to take over still "occupied" bodies, but it is much more difficult.

[Stormdrake]

The Shediem have been refered to as minor horrors on the forums by developers in the past.  Such comments of course are not cannon but they are a good guide.l

[The_Gun_Nut]

They aren't referred to as Horrors in the one book they are mentioned in (in Earthdawn).  In fact, their behavior, while horrific, is not consistant with Horrors, which feed on the fear/pain of metahumans.  Their primary goal seems to be to spread into the world and the only way they can hang around is to inhabit a metahuman body.

They are nasty, but they don't scream "Horror" to me.

[Sichr]

They aren't referred to as Horrors in the one book they are mentioned in (in Earthdawn).  In fact, their behavior, while horrific, is not consistant with Horrors, which feed on the fear/pain of metahumans.  Their primary goal seems to be to spread into the world and the only way they can hang around is to inhabit a metahuman body.

They are nasty, but they don't scream "Horror" to me.

Even a Shadow spirits (f.e. Wraith) feeds from fear and pain and violence, and they are not Horrors. The difference must be drawn somewhere else...

[FoxBoy]

The only criteria that I've seen that were consistent is that the home metaplane is either unreachable or unknown; that it is a spirit of some kind; and in those times where it's assensed, that there is a sense of 'wrong' about it, or corruption. Their behavior is /usually/ horrific or 'evil' in nature, sometimes for the purposes of feeding on the negative emotions.

Shedim, at this time the plane that the horrors came from is unknown, and they're spirits so they meet that criteria. I don't remember what they were described as in the astral, but for any critter that can (and does) manipulate the dead for it's enjoyment can't be good. I do however know they were described as addicted to the hate and fear they cause, so that meets the definition in my book.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Shadow wraiths are, in Earthdawn, Horror constructs.  They, therefore, are there to assist the Horror that created them in bringing about pain and suffering.  That they get a bit of juice off of it only helps them fulfill their purpose.

The Shedim/Vyrkanogen aren't precisely spirits (in a similar way that Horrors aren't precisely spirits), but they don't feed on the pain or suffering or even the flesh or minds of others.  They are more akin to bodysnatchers than Horrors, although the difference is likely lost on the victims.  They don't do it for fun or food, they do it to survive on this plane (for whatever reason).

[Sichr]

The only criteria that I've seen that were consistent is that the home metaplane is either unreachable or unknown; that it is a spirit of some kind; and in those times where it's assensed, that there is a sense of 'wrong' about it, or corruption. Their behavior is /usually/ horrific or 'evil' in nature, sometimes for the purposes of feeding on the negative emotions.

Shedim, at this time the plane that the horrors came from is unknown, and they're spirits so they meet that criteria. I don't remember what they were described as in the astral, but for any critter that can (and does) manipulate the dead for it's enjoyment can't be good. I do however know they were described as addicted to the hate and fear they cause, so that meets the definition in my book.

Note that in Street magic all this (evil) entities are called Vanguards
That means only one thing: The main force - Enemy - has yet to come.
Horrors metaplane is unreachable due to current low mana level. Low in comparsion to Earthdawn, when almost everything was influenced and so closely linked to Magic that it almost beat the basic Laws of Gravity and Thermodynamics. Only way to get horrors to our metaplane is to build a bridge on the place with great mana spike: Crater lake, Locust, Aztlan blood pattern and some others. Bridge has to be intentionaly built now (as it almost was by Mr.Darke and his compadres), althought it is possible, from what I know, that someday it will open itself spontaneously.

[Sichr]

The Shedim/Vyrkanogen aren't precisely spirits (in a similar way that Horrors aren't precisely spirits), but they don't feed on the pain or suffering or even the flesh or minds of others.

Not true. Ibn Eisa declared Jihad after he become posessed by Shedim and resurrected. Street Magic and Year of the Comet sourcebooks say, that Shedims revel of violent deaths and major clashes... And at least it is capable of Drain power.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Then that is a change from what they were in Earthdawn times.  Back then, they just wanted bodies to inhabit.

Of course, given that they can only occupy dead/vacant bodies right now, probably from the low mana level, then it makes sense that one of them would want to create a few new ones.

[Sichr]

Then that is a change from what they were in Earthdawn times.  Back then, they just wanted bodies to inhabit.

Of course, given that they can only occupy dead/vacant bodies right now, probably from the low mana level, then it makes sense that one of them would want to create a few new ones.

Sad but true. It should be just the need for new vessels...