[inca1980]

Can a mystic Adept astrally perceive via a watcher spirit or another summoned spirit?

[anotherJack]

Not really. The watcher or the other spirit may communicate to him what it sees, but not allow him to see directly through his eyes - besides, "astral sight" isn't really a "sight".
But a spirit has assensing and so may do tests for you, and tell you what he found.

[inca1980]

So basically, with a watcher spirit you can't listen into other people's conversations?  Wouldn't mental link spell be the same as the spirit link?  What's the point of a watcher then?

[anotherJack]

The point of the watchers is allowing by the rules the GM to make fun of the magician by driving him crazy with these stupid beings  

More seriously, watchers' uses are well described in the core rulebook, they're too dumb to be really effective on somethin else. Even for these use, they're not really effective - and they don't really deserve their "watcher" name.
For the mental link, I don't think it allows you to see trough the spirit's eyes - it would be a gamebreaker - it's "just" a mean for spirits to communicate some images and some thoughts to its summoner, which is pretty interesting, but having the ability to see right through a spirit's eyes, what would be the point of astral projection ? if you want astral perception via a spirit's eyes, some detection spells may work, but then there's the problem of spell sustaining and astral/physical plane :

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=151.0

We know that a spirit can sustain a physical power while going back to the astral space, but we don't know if you can sustain a spell or power on somethin which leave the plane where you cast the spell/power, so it means that casting and sustaining a detection spell on the spirit to "see through its eyes" may force the spirit to stay materialized, unless you have astral sight/astral projection, but if you use them, you may not really need a spirit to see through its eyes…

[inca1980]

"Shadow:  Watchers can be instructed to follow or even eavesdrop on someone astrally or physically and then report back to it's summoner.  If the target passes through an astral mana barrier or projects onto a metaplane, then the watcher will lose track of him." pg. 190 SR4A

This makes it pretty clear that you can't "see" through the eyes of a watcher...otherwise they wouldn't say "report back."   But you could have the watcher "report back" to you a mental image of a room.  In practical terms, if you have enough time to scope a place out, you as a GM might as well tell the players what they would basically see as if they were in that room...I don't see how you could get around this.  But this picture would be a picture of astral space...so you you would be seeing a person's aura so you could assense them...maybe with a negative dicepool modifier....but given the rules as written it's hard to argue that you could not do this.  I don't feel it's broken because an F1 watcher wouldn't be able to pass through most barriers...but the mage-projecting could.  This fits along with the idea in SR4 that magic is a real bitch if you don't have defensive magic to protect you.

According to RAW you could even have a watcher show another person the layout of a far off room using their project 2d image ability which is under Courier.

[anotherJack]

In practical terms, if you have enough time to scope a place out, you as a GM might as well tell the players what they would basically see as if they were in that room...I don't see how you could get around this.  But this picture would be a picture of astral space...so you you would be seeing a person's aura so you could assense them...maybe with a negative dicepool modifier....

First of all, I think the good behavior regarding rules, and particularly magic and astral rules, since they do not apply to a world were physical rules apply, but to a world we "try" to describe with physical rules, is FIRST STEP, follow the rule, THEN translate it into a believable description. If you always try to go from the description to translate it into a rule, you can twist and torture rules a lot, and finally completely change the game.
Now, this is how I'd explain the RAW :
We know that a magician can't see through the eyes of his spirits, but the spirits can communicate with images and so. Are these images the direct images the spirit see ? no. They are the images the spirit "describe" to you through the link. It's like you send a child somewhere, ask him to draw what he has seen. You don't see the scene, you see the drawing. You don't have to make an assenssing on it, since what you could assense is already described by the spirit. Astral ain't really visual, or anything else like that. Re-read descriptions of astral world, particularly in street magic. In order to make an assenssing, you have to be in front of the target you want to assense. So you can't make an assensing on what the spirit described to you. But you can ask the spirit to make an assenssing and then describe what it has found.

[Qemuel]

Now, this is how I'd explain the RAW :
We know that a magician can't see through the eyes of his spirits, but the spirits can communicate with images and so. Are these images the direct images the spirit see ? no. They are the images the spirit "describe" to you through the link. It's like you send a child somewhere, ask him to draw what he has seen. You don't see the scene, you see the drawing. You don't have to make an assenssing on it, since what you could assense is already described by the spirit. Astral ain't really visual, or anything else like that. Re-read descriptions of astral world, particularly in street magic. In order to make an assenssing, you have to be in front of the target you want to assense. So you can't make an assensing on what the spirit described to you. But you can ask the spirit to make an assenssing and then describe what it has found.

This is how I would interpret Watcher's abilities, too.  They are supposed to be like well-trained, loyal dogs in intelligence.  Also, they are independent of the magician, not an extension of their own senses.  They have the same mental link to their summoner as any spirit, but this only allows telepathic communication between the two which would be limited by the Watchers Logic (and other attributes) rating of 1.  Watchers have their own Assensing skill (also a rating of 1, see p. 303 SR4A) which they would have to use for any astral perception test they make.

Treating them as an extension of the mages own senses makes them (in my opinion) way too powerful and useful for such a limited spirit.  It's almost like getting astral projection without actually putting yourself in harms way, or getting both the clairvoyance and clairaudience spells wrapped into one (AND allowing astral perception, which is explicitly forbidden by the spell).

[inca1980]

I'd agree with you...that pure extention of the mages senses might be a little bit much.....and so far i've never used a watcher in that broken way.  So my big question is how would you handle a watcher "eavesdropping" on someone?  It says in RAW  a watcher can "follow or even eavesdrop on someone physically or astrally."  What does this mean?  It says that Watchers are even smart enough to "carry on an argument" under irritant.  So doesn't this suggest a level of intelligence high enough so that you could ask it "how many people are in the next room?"  I feel that watchers aren't broken because they are helpless when up against even the weakest of magical defenses like wards or banishing.  Most of magic in SR is broken when it's magic vs. mundane.  Spells like clairvoyance and clairaudience allow you to do remote detection at a much stronger power than a watcher. 

Then leaving watchers aside, what about F6+ spirits...they're like geniuses...you have to agree that you could definitely use them like getting astral projection without putting  yourself in harms way. 

[anotherJack]

The intelligence level of the spirits compared to metahumans is clearly stated by their characteristics. So I don't see what's the point.
If you're asking if a watcher or a spirit can scout for the magician, the answer is yes, obviously. And if the spirit summoned is more clever than the magician, it can even be better than the magician in assensing.
But it has other restrictions. For example, it doesn't have the same common knowledges than the magician, it probably won't be able to identify an implant.
Besides, summoning a F6 spirits is supposed to cause more drain damages than projecting youself.
And it costs services.

[Dead Monky]

I use Watchers as test animals.  Throwing them at spirits, astral barriers, or astral phenomena to see what happens.  They're pretty much crap for anything else.

[FastJack]

I use Watchers as test animals.  Throwing them at spirits, astral barriers, or astral phenomena to see what happens.  They're pretty much crap for anything else.

"Oh DREK! The damn Monky's summoning us again."
"Aw hell! It's not my turn! I went last time!"
"Don't look at me, I'm still trying to get the scorch marks of dragon's breath out of my essence!"
"Send Timmy, he's not gone down in a while."
"You sure? He tends to get skittish around explosives."
"Good point. Chances are that Monky's going to have us scout out where to throw his grenades."
"I  know, let's send Biff. He's an ass anyway."
"Nice. Hey Biff! We got a job for ya..."

[Dead Monky]

   If they were a little more useful, I might be a little more careful with them.

[Walks Through Walls]

For eavesdropping on a non-magical entity they are great, or following the samurai to be sure they don't get lost on the way to the stuffer shack and back, or if he does come tell me so I can bring him home again. 

Seriously though if you need some type of simple spy mission against a non-magical being the watcher is perfect even for the conjuring challenged. Besides if it is something short and sweet all I need is 1 success for 1 hr and then I can keep an eye on whomever. If something stronger magical (like just about anything) comes along and banishes him then that gives me information also. 

[Qemuel]

It says in RAW  a watcher can "follow or even eavesdrop on someone physically or astrally."  What does this mean?

I would treat this in a similar way as sending an invisible, intangible kid to spy on someone and then report back on what he heard and saw.  The 'kid' isn't going to say word for word what happened, but give you a summary based on his own interpretation.  The reporting back can be through the mental link, but it will come from its perspective rather than a line by line description.  It's one way the GM can put in a little color and personality surrounding the situation, but still leave a few blank spots (in case the watcher missed something with its assensing test).

Watcher:  "Hey boss, there are 3 orks and a human in this room."
Magician:  "Well what are they doing?"
Watcher:  "Two of the orks are staring at some rectangle thingy while the other and human are on the bed bouncing up and down."
Magician:  "I see... are any of them magically active?"
Watcher:  "Lemme check... [rolls Assensing 1 + Intuition 1 and gets 1 success]  Well, the one sitting in the big comfy chair is Mundane.  Let me check the others..."

and so on...

[inca1980]

Ya that is a nice way to handle it if you're doing PnP....the only problem that in PbP it's impractical to have that much interaction.