[Mystic]

The only real rule is that you and your group have fun.   

That said...Simply thinking of an NPC as "your PC" is showing a preference toward it.

The only difference between a "GMPC" and an NPC is that.

The GM is not a player. All of his characters are NPCs...or, if you prefer, all NPCs are his characters. Deciding that one is "yours" is saying that one NPC is special.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Nothing wrong with a GM having an NPC with "favored" status. Some of my best fixers, villians, contacts, etc are my "favorite" NPCs.  Like you said, as long as everyone is having fun, I doubt anyone will notice.

[Shadowjack]

I really disagree, Joe. When I gm I am attached to my npcs and my pc, they are all special to me in some way. Just because I consider one of them to be my character doesn't mean he/she gets any special treatment and I treat them exactly like I would if they were a pc. It seems like you haven't tried this before and have a negative impression of it. Either that or you saw a gm handle it poorly. An experienced gm can handle it so I don't see ANY reason to say that gmpc's don't exist.

The difference is that you are rping your character as not being privy to any of the details of your campaign that are not known by your pc. It takes true commitment to rp and it get's easier and easier to avoid metagaming.

[Onion Man]

I really disagree, Joe. When I gm I am attached to my npcs and my pc, they are all special to me in some way. Just because I consider one of them to be my character doesn't mean he/she gets any special treatment and I treat them exactly like I would if they were a pc. It seems like you haven't tried this before and have a negative impression of it. Either that or you saw a gm handle it poorly. An experienced gm can handle it so I don't see ANY reason to say that gmpc's don't exist.

The difference is that you are rping your character as not being privy to any of the details of your campaign that are not known by your pc. It takes true commitment to rp and it get's easier and easier to avoid metagaming.

An "experienced GM who can handle it" is probably a good 5 years from growing into an experienced GM that knows better.

[Shadowjack]

Hehe I bet the gm I'm speaking of is better than any gm you've seen by a long shot Just because you can't do it doesn't mean others can't as well

[Charybdis]

Hehe I bet the gm I'm speaking of is better than any gm you've seen by a long shot Just because you can't do it doesn't mean others can't as well

Seeing as Onion Man is playing Missions under GM's with 20+ years experience, I'd watch the boasting....

[Critias]

Seeing as how anything anyone in this thread is talking about is just playing pretend with rules and dice, I think going easy on the boasting is a good idea all around.  There's no "right way" or "wrong way" to play an RPG.  Some folks don't mind having a GMPC around, some folks do.  Neither side's right, it's just something that works at some game tables and not at others.  There's no need for it to turn into a peein' contest, folks.

[Operator]

I don't like the concept in a vacuum as it creates a conflict of interest and also diminishes the impact of the players' actions. That being said, I have used my own PC as a Johnson and a small-time fixer.

Seeing as how anything anyone in this thread is talking about is just playing pretend with rules and dice, I think going easy on the boasting is a good idea all around.  There's no "right way" or "wrong way" to play an RPG.  Some folks don't mind having a GMPC around, some folks do.  Neither side's right, it's just something that works at some game tables and not at others.  There's no need for it to turn into a peein' contest, folks.

Did someone say challenge pissing? (NSFW)

[baronspam]

The only real rule is that you and your group have fun.   

That said...Simply thinking of an NPC as "your PC" is showing a preference toward it.

The only difference between a "GMPC" and an NPC is that.

The GM is not a player. All of his characters are NPCs...or, if you prefer, all NPCs are his characters. Deciding that one is "yours" is saying that one NPC is special.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Well, if the NPC travels, works, and generally spends all thier time with the group just like a regular group memember then they are special.  An npc typically comes and goes, isn't in every story, certainly isn't in every scene.  If the GM is running a character, built with the same rules as the PCs, who acts pretty much as a player character in the story, then its not a normal npc.

You are free to think this is a good or bad idea.  YMMV depending on the people involved and how it is handled.  I have seen it handled very well.  I can image it being handled very poorly.

But there is not much sense in denying that it exists.  GMs sometimes run characters.  They are NOT just another NPC, they are a GM controlled character.  There are boundaries that must be respected to make sure that everyone at the table feels that it is fair, the story does not suffer as a result, and the everyone is having fun. 

[Shadowjack]

I'm not boasting at all, I was merely commending a fellow gm I play with irl. He also has a ton of experience gming(as do I). There is no need to make assumptions on which gm is more experienced or superior without any real information. I will say this though, isn't the "Missions" gming pre-made adventures? That is something my group would never use as we prefer to create our own material and have no use  in pre-made adventures. Trying to say someone is an amazing gm with 20 years experience but is using Missions is a lot less impressive than someone creating their own material. That being said, I'm not saying they aren't good gms as I don't know them and maybe they just like pre-made stuff or don't have time to create etc.

My original point is, don't assume the gm I'm speaking of is inexperienced based on nothing other than the fact that you don't agree with gmpc's. As others have mentioned, rp can be handled a million different ways and there is no wrong way to do it as long as you're having fun

And fwiw my Brother and I started a 2 man campaign last night with him as a gmpc and we had a great time. At no point did I notice or suspect metagaming on any level. We grew up with the same group of rp'ers and we're mostly split up now and we don't really want to find new players so we just play with 2-3 these days. We also  go into great depth with our rp which can be quite time consuming and only gets worse with a large group so 2-3 works best for us and a gmpc is essential.

[Charybdis]

I'm not boasting at all, I was merely commending a fellow gm I play with irl. He also has a ton of experience gming(as do I). There is no need to make assumptions on which gm is more experienced or superior without any real information. I will say this though, isn't the "Missions" gming pre-made adventures? That is something my group would never use as we prefer to create our own material and have no use  in pre-made adventures. Trying to say someone is an amazing gm with 20 years experience but is using Missions is a lot less impressive than someone creating their own material. That being said, I'm not saying they aren't good gms as I don't know them and maybe they just like pre-made stuff or don't have time to create etc.

My original point is, don't assume the gm I'm speaking of is inexperienced based on nothing other than the fact that you don't agree with gmpc's. As others have mentioned, rp can be handled a million different ways and there is no wrong way to do it as long as you're having fun

And fwiw my Brother and I started a 2 man campaign last night with him as a gmpc and we had a great time. At no point did I notice or suspect metagaming on any level. We grew up with the same group of rp'ers and we're mostly split up now and we don't really want to find new players so we just play with 2-3 these days. We also  go into great depth with our rp which can be quite time consuming and only gets worse with a large group so 2-3 works best for us and a gmpc is essential.

*sigh*
This could very quickly devolve into a rant, so I'll be deliberately brief and blunt.
A) Pre-Made material is not necessarily easy
B) Home made material is not necessarily good nor impressive
C) Creativity is more than just putting unique ideas on paper
D) GMPC is not essential, even with a small group.

That all said, I've had both brillaint and terrible experiences with GMPC's at the table (both my own and those of other GM's. Each player/GM/group's Miles May Vary, so it's probably best to agree to disagree on whether GMPC's are good or bad. Argument is degenerating quickly....

[Onion Man]

Each player/GM/group's Miles May Vary, so it's probably best to agree to disagree on whether GMPC's are good or bad. Argument is degenerating quickly....

It's never best to agree to disagree (a false surrender).

@Shadowjack.  You've just described (in further detail than before) the symptoms of what I'll call a sophomore GM.  I'll spare the academics of competition theory and leave it as, you describe a game and a preference for games which shows a distinct lack in certain skillsets necessary to a high quality GM, among which are game balance (no GMPC should ever be needed if your GM can competently write custom modules for your PCs) and table managements (2-3 players?  A bare bones table is generally 4 players and a GM, a skillful GM will be able to run maybe twice that, I draw my line at 6 (8 for D&D but that's second nature to me now)).

What we're looking at here is the contradiction of mystery.  For those who understand no explanation is needed, for those who do not no explanation will suffice.

I suggest you sit down with some game designers (I don't mean the writers of an RPG, I mean the guys that design games from nothing into a set of rules and actions) and ask them specifically to explain competitive models, the 4th wall, and metaplay to you.

btw, the best GM I've had the privilege of playing with has been Ed Greenwood.  He used to run an irregular game at the Game Guild in Lake Geneva and I had the privilege of sitting in after being eliminated early in a M:tG tournament.  After the immortal Ed, there's a whole pack of expert GMs that I have played under (including Chris Tulach and other RPGA and Judges Guild bigwiigs), many of whom aren't just top notch convention GMs and writers, but literally have given seminars on how to GM effectively (I'll never forget the KISMIF anbd Illusion of Free Will seminars from classic GenCon in MKE).

[Shadowjack]

Let's not forget who made the first snide remark.

A) Being handed everything you need to run adventures is much easier than creating it on your own.
B) Not sure what your point is here. Imo a truly good gm can create his own content. Sure not all gm's can do it.
C) Maybe. But it is certainly much more creative to make unique content than copy content that many other players have already used.
D) It isn't always essential but in my group it is because we don't feel like being regular gm's these days. Without gmpc's it wouldn't be nearly as fun for us.

Don't get too caught up in this, man. I don't agree with some things that were said too but I'm not going to let it affect my mood. One other thing I'll say is, Missions is not for me. I have been rping for ages and I never played through a module or anything similar. In my group, we all like to create our own material(or our own games) and I enjoy knowing that it is a unique experience that we share. I'll repeat this though, good gms can play Missions, I am not impressed by it at all though. I would always rather see new material.

[Shadowjack]

@Onionman, you made a thread on how to force your pcs into doing what you want and essentially being reduced to characters in a novel with you as the writer, it doesn't get any weaker than that. I gm'd my first campaign big campaign at the age of 13 and I did the exact things you are seeking to do now and it is very low quality. As for discussions with those that make games, I have been working on one with my friend for years and it is far superior to most imo.

One other note, we could never manage an 8 player group because the character development per session would be far too thin. We have done many marathon sessions with just 3 people that was asbent on combat and pure rp. With each extra person who likes to rp to this extent the game becomes increasingly slow. The fact that you can run games with 8 players indicates an extreme low degree of actual rp.

[Onion Man]

@Onionman, you made a thread on how to force your pcs into doing what you want and essentially being reduced to characters in a novel with you as the write, it doesn't get any weaker than that. I gm'd my first campaign big campaign at the age of 13 and I did the exact things you are seeking to do now and it is very low quality. As for discussions with those that make games, I have been working on one with my friend for years and it is far superior to most imo.

You confuse the illusion of free will with leading by the nose and participant narrative.

Illusion of free will couldn't be further from the description you provide.  Illusion of free will is an improvisational practice which allows numeric challenges to be used wherever the players choose (they tell the story, not me) and eliminates the existence of rails for an adventure to go off of.

Forcing players to follow your story (the most common GM failure) is most often a case of leading by the nose (no you can't go that way because my adventure is over here) or participant narrative (this is the story that is happening and no matter what you do my story is going to happen).

Keep designing your game, stay in school/keep your day job.

[Critias]

There's no need for it to turn into a peein' contest, folks.

This is the opposite of what was intended.

Fellas, I'm not a mod, but I could tell things were headed in this direction (because talkin' about another man's GM is about like talkin' about another man's wife, in certain social circles) -- y'all may want to ease up, before someone who is a mod takes notice.