[Banshee]

Based on a lot of the recent discussions I have been kicking this around and finally came up with a solution that does not actually require and rule changes ... just some definitions. Special thanks to SSDR for sparking (honestly more than a spark) final piece of the puzzle!

I will be submitting this to be made official, but have decided to post it here to get feedback and have at least be a house rule option in case it gets shot down.

Slaved devices = limit is the controlling device's Data Processing, these devices are part of your network but can also be controlled remotely. Primary use would drones, vehicles, and firing platforms, but I'm sure you could get creative with other devices.

Networked devices = limit is infinite as long as your able to be connected. Noise or other signal blocking would be a factor. A networked device is part of your network (PAN) and therefore gains all of the strengths and weaknesses of your security. (Willpower and Firewall)

Unattached/unattended devices = these devices have no network connection of any kind what so ever, and only have their own built in security (often a barely existent firewall if anything) but also can not be used to gain access to a network.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Yeah, rationales that don't require even more errata are the ideal way to go, hehe.

[jtkirk22]

I am so happy to read this! Thanks for clarification!

1.) In addition, it could make sense to delete the paragraph for "accessories" on p. 267.

Code: [Select]

Unless otherwise noted, these accessories are
compatible with commlinks, cyberdecks, and (with
GM permission) other electronic devices. All peripheral
accessories are wireless, and unless slaved prophelmets
properly, offer a sneaky ingress into a user’s PAN. Commlinks
can have a maximum number of “slaves”
equal to their Data Processing. All other accessories
are “open” connections and can be exploited.
2.) Noise: Also, noise rules concerning connected devices within a PAN could be treated separatly. In the German forums, people are very confused how to treat noise within PANs.   

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The PAN should be treated as one entity for most matrix-related things.  Spotting, Noise, Access, etc.

Now if a drone or vehicle is part of your PAN, and it gets far away from you, sure Noise "inside" your PAN becomes an issue.

[Banshee]

I am so happy to read this! Thanks for clarification!

In addition, it could make sense to delete the paragraph for "accessories" on p. 267.

Code: [Select]

Unless otherwise noted, these accessories are
compatible with commlinks, cyberdecks, and (with
GM permission) other electronic devices. All peripheral
accessories are wireless, and unless slaved prophelmets
properly, offer a sneaky ingress into a user’s PAN. Commlinks
can have a maximum number of “slaves”
equal to their Data Processing. All other accessories
are “open” connections and can be exploited.
This confused me a lot!

I don't think the whole paragraph needs deleted, it actually almost reinforces what I want ... an "open" connection would indeed be a networked device that could be hacked and allow access to your PAN ... but I digress some,  yes it needs to be clarified at least. The first part is still accurate.

[Banshee]

The PAN should be treated as one entity for most matrix-related things.  Spotting, Noise, Access, etc.

Now if a drone or vehicle is part of your PAN, and it gets far away from you, sure Noise "inside" your PAN becomes an issue.

My primary point there is you can't do something like leave a commlink on in your apartment and then travel to do a job and expect it to stay connected to your PAN. Noise is a good existing mechanic for this.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Oh, obviously. a PAN's maximum distance isn't defined, so naturally impose distance-based noise if you spread your gear far and wide.

But at the same time, my point was that if the Noise from jamming/static is X, you don't check X against every device IN your PAN, you just check it against the "master" device, so long as everything is on your person? 

[Banshee]

Oh, obviously. a PAN's maximum distance isn't defined, so naturally impose distance-based noise if you spread your gear far and wide.

But at the same time, my point was that if the Noise from jamming/static is X, you don't check X against every device IN your PAN, you just check it against the "master" device, so long as everything is on your person?

Yes

[jtkirk22]

A networked device is part of your network (PAN) and therefore gains all of the strengths and weaknesses of your security. (Willpower and Firewall)

I am a new player, so I just want to make sure, I have understood everything right:

Actually, a networked device gains all attributes from the master device (e.g. commliml/cyberjack -> DP/F) + all mental attributes (intuition, willpower), right?

[Michael Chandra]

A commlink shares its Firewall with its slaves.

[Commlinks] are used for rudimentary access, most
commonly for commcalls and searches, as well
as basic Matrix Firewall defense for devices attached
to the user’s PAN.

An active defender has options to pick own attributes or device/host:

A persona actively
defending for a device or host can use the other
pool with the device or host attributes.

And:

Generally
speaking, in order to get to a device attached to a
PAN, one must first gain access to that PAN.

It sounds not as much 'networked device gains attributes from master', as much as 'networked device is attacked THROUGH the master so use the master stats'.

[jtkirk22]

A commlink shares its Firewall with its slaves.

[Commlinks] are used for rudimentary access, most
commonly for commcalls and searches, as well
as basic Matrix Firewall defense for devices attached
to the user’s PAN.

Okay, so a slaved device gets Firewall of the Master. That's clear.

Generally
speaking, in order to get to a device attached to a
PAN, one must first gain access to that PAN.

It sounds not as much 'networked device gains attributes from master', as much as 'networked device is attacked THROUGH the master so use the master stats'.

Don't understand the difference (might be, because of language problems).

But I still don't get, why a slaved/networked device doesn't get data processing.

1.) Are we speaking of different situations?

a. Access to PAN = master stats (DP/F/Mental)
b. Matrix Action vs. Device (actively defended) = master stats (DP/F/Mental)
c. Matrix Action vs. Device (no defender) = Device Stats (mostly no DP) + Firewall + no mental stats ?

2.) Is hacking a PAN always opposed by mental stats (even if Hacker is sleeping/unaware)?

[Banshee]

A networked device is part of your network (PAN) and therefore gains all of the strengths and weaknesses of your security. (Willpower and Firewall)

I am a new player, so I just want to make sure, I have understood everything right:

Actually, a networked device gains all attributes from the master device (e.g. commliml/cyberjack -> DP/F) + all mental attributes (intuition, willpower), right?

Yes that's what I'm saying

[Banshee]

A commlink shares its Firewall with its slaves.

[Commlinks] are used for rudimentary access, most
commonly for commcalls and searches, as well
as basic Matrix Firewall defense for devices attached
to the user’s PAN.

Okay, so a slaved device gets Firewall of the Master. That's clear.

Generally
speaking, in order to get to a device attached to a
PAN, one must first gain access to that PAN.

It sounds not as much 'networked device gains attributes from master', as much as 'networked device is attacked THROUGH the master so use the master stats'.

Don't understand the difference (might be, because of language problems).

But I still don't get, why a slaved/networked device doesn't get data processing.

1.) Are we speaking of different situations?

a. Access to PAN = master stats (DP/F/Mental)
b. Matrix Action vs. Device (actively defended) = master stats (DP/F/Mental)
c. Matrix Action vs. Device (no defender) = Device Stats (mostly no DP) + Firewall + no mental stats ?

2.) Is hacking a PAN always opposed by mental stats (even if Hacker is sleeping/unaware)?

1. Hacking/attacking a PAN always uses the stats of the master device regardless of which device you are "targeting" ... that is the benefit of being in a network.

An undefended device (not slaved or networked) can I ky use it's own attributes.

2. Yes and I know it seems kind of weird, but that is suppose to represent the owners diligence in maintaining security protocols. It is also never made clear but i would say that if you can actually get the physical device removed from its owner you would be able to do a reset that would put the device in an unprotected setting. (At least until we can get advanced rules for such things)

[jtkirk22]

1. Hacking/attacking a PAN always uses the stats of the master device regardless of which device you are "targeting" ... that is the benefit of being in a network.

An undefended device (not slaved or networked) can I ky use it's own attributes.

2. Yes and I know it seems kind of weird, but that is suppose to represent the owners diligence in maintaining security protocols. It is also never made clear but i would say that if you can actually get the physical device removed from its owner you would be able to do a reset that would put the device in an unprotected setting. (At least until we can get advanced rules for such things)

Big thanks for clarification! I hoped for this answer! Makes it easy and sounds absolutely reasonable to me! :-)

Oh, obviously. a PAN's maximum distance isn't defined, so naturally impose distance-based noise if you spread your gear far and wide.

1.) Regarding Noise within an PAN: I think, there should be a rule, when there is too much noise that a connection breaks. Maybe something similar to existing rules on p. 176 like "f noise is greater than the device rating, connection breaks between master and its slaves/networked devices breaks."

2.) Hosts and noise:
a) Is it intended that a hacking a Host generates no noise (because most of them only exist virtually)?
b) And if so, does that also count for hacking slaved devices to that virtual host? 

[Banshee]

1.) Regarding Noise within an PAN: I think, there should be a rule, when there is too much noise that a connection breaks. Maybe something similar to existing rules on p. 176 like "f noise is greater than the device rating, connection breaks between master and its slaves/networked devices breaks."

2.) Hosts and noise:
a) Is it intended that a hacking a Host generates no noise (because most of them only exist virtually)?
b) And if so, does that also count for hacking slaved devices to that virtual host?

OK, first a general note about noise... I don't like it and it only exists as a game mechanism to prevent living room hackers from taking over the world.  So ...

1. Noise within a PAN is usually ignored and the PAN should be treated as a single entity when determining noise penalties and affects by outside sources.

However considering that a PAN is a "small" personal network I agree that distance between devices needs to be taken into account, and the best way using existing rules to this is noise. No actual penalties but once the noise due to distance is greater than the connection then you lose connection. This would apply to individual devices that are left behind somewhere as well as a teammates commlink if the team splits off from the decker.

2. Hosts and noise... noise inside a host is irrelevant because the are such large networks.
Noise is a factor when hacking from outside, this noise is determined by the distance (and other related factors) between the hacker and their access point to the host ( which should always be tied to some form of physical location).